Can it be any clearer?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Can it be any clearer?
Every now and again, a post is written on a forum that deserves to be given its own thread, rather than being part of a longer one. I believe that this one by Tazman fits into that category and, indeed, would be one of my Top 5 that I have ever read on SR (a couple of others being ones also telling it like it is from the other side.)
This is how it is, ladies and gents. Tazman has clearly shown you the sociopathic mindset of a certain (and very common, especially on here) type of active drinker and I am very grateful that he has been successful enough in his recovery to be able to be so generous and humble and share some of the most important messages you will ever hear. Thank you, Tazman!!
Isn't it time to stop making excuses for other people, and ourselves, and get on with the business of thriving?
Originally Posted by Tazman53 
May the alcoholic speak on this from the other side of the fence?
(HeeHe I will any how) LOL
Okay first I will tell you what my #1 priority in life was when I was drinking.... drinking!! Alcohol was my first love, it was always there for me when ever I wanted it, it never argued with me, it never told me I was wrong for drinking or being drunk, it never critisized me!
When I was in my final years of drinking I slowly stopped doing anything I used to do just for me or with my family, my world revolved around drinking and being pleased sexually, and to be honest if I did not get it at home I was going elsewhere, but the alcohol still came first! Every thing else was insignifigant except alcohol.
It was all about me and drinking, I lied and I manipulated who ever I needed to lie or manipulate for booze! My family did with out when it came down to a choice of buying milk or more beer! Alcohol was my one and only true love. Oh sure I told my wife and kids I loved them, because I needed them in the picture to help take care of things.
If some one who I needed in my life to allow me to drink started to threaten me in a manner that may lead to me not being able to drink I would cry, beg, lie, promise, say I loved them, I needed them..... what ever I needed to say or do to keep them enabling me to drink and not have to face the consequences of my drinking.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$
The best thing a spouse, lover, or family member can do for an alcoholic is to let the alcoholic fall on thier on sword, to lie in thier own filth.
I stopped drinking when I saw that my entire support system was going to collapse all at once! I was going to have to do everything for myself with out the help of anyone!
I was going to have to pay my own bills, I was going to have to wash my own clothes, I was going to be alone with no one to call on to help me. I was going to have to buy my own food. If I wrecked my truck I had no one to call to help me, if I lost my job there was nothing to do but live in my truck.
I had to face reality, at the point where I knew I had to deal with life and every thing it threw at me alone, I knew I had 2 choices to make:
1. Keep on drinking and lose everything and simply drink my self to death.
2. Stop drinking and learn how to face reality.
################################################## ##
The entire family of the alcoholic needs to simply leave or throw out the alcoholic, if you still love them then let them know that, but tell them that you are not going to watch them die or help them die! Tell them the only thing you will do for them is take them to detox/rehab. If you loan or give them a dime for something to eat they will buy alcohol with it. If you give them something they will sell it to get alcohol.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
The families and friends of alcoholics need to watch out for their selfs and not help the alcoholic in any way, because the more you help them they longer they will drink, the sicker they will get, the more damage they will do to thier brain and organs.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
As long as an alcoholic thinks there is a chance of getting any kind of help from anyone, the longer they will drink. If the alcoholic has dirty nasty clothes and is living in his own filth the worst thing any one can do is give him a bath and clean clothes.
################################################## ##
Unless the alcoholic ask you to take them to detox/rehab the best thing you can do for him is ignore him.
################################################## ##
I am an alcoholic, I did not want to stop drinking until I saw there was absolutely nothing left for me to do but stop or die!
################################################## ##
What did I have to do to stop drinking and stay stopped?
I had to find a new love..... Sobriety! Sobriety is now my number one priority, if I make anyone or anything a higher priority then my sobriety I will drink again and lose it all!
My second love is now myself, because if I do not love myslef I can not love any one else, I can not love myself if I am drinking, as a result my sobriety is my #1 priority/love.
I have to thank my HP whom I chose to call God for all of my loves because with out my HP I could never have stopped drinking or learned to love myself.
As a result of the above now I truly love people, I love my wife and children, I no longer lie, decieve, or manipulate them or others.
################################################## ##
I guess in a nut shell what I am saying is if you love an alcoholic and they are still drinking the best thing you can do for them is to stop helping them in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
################################################## ##
If you do love an alcoholic to keep the alcoholic from destroying you and your children if they are entangled in the alcoholics disease you need to do as I did to get sober with one minor difference, instead of making sobriety your #1 priority, you need to make yourself your #1 priority and learn to love your self and not depend upon the alcoholic for love or trying to save the alcoholic from himself as your purpose in life.
The only person that can get an alcoholic sober and to stay sober is the alcoholic them selfs, not you.
(HeeHe I will any how) LOL
Okay first I will tell you what my #1 priority in life was when I was drinking.... drinking!! Alcohol was my first love, it was always there for me when ever I wanted it, it never argued with me, it never told me I was wrong for drinking or being drunk, it never critisized me!
When I was in my final years of drinking I slowly stopped doing anything I used to do just for me or with my family, my world revolved around drinking and being pleased sexually, and to be honest if I did not get it at home I was going elsewhere, but the alcohol still came first! Every thing else was insignifigant except alcohol.
It was all about me and drinking, I lied and I manipulated who ever I needed to lie or manipulate for booze! My family did with out when it came down to a choice of buying milk or more beer! Alcohol was my one and only true love. Oh sure I told my wife and kids I loved them, because I needed them in the picture to help take care of things.
If some one who I needed in my life to allow me to drink started to threaten me in a manner that may lead to me not being able to drink I would cry, beg, lie, promise, say I loved them, I needed them..... what ever I needed to say or do to keep them enabling me to drink and not have to face the consequences of my drinking.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$
The best thing a spouse, lover, or family member can do for an alcoholic is to let the alcoholic fall on thier on sword, to lie in thier own filth.
I stopped drinking when I saw that my entire support system was going to collapse all at once! I was going to have to do everything for myself with out the help of anyone!
I was going to have to pay my own bills, I was going to have to wash my own clothes, I was going to be alone with no one to call on to help me. I was going to have to buy my own food. If I wrecked my truck I had no one to call to help me, if I lost my job there was nothing to do but live in my truck.
I had to face reality, at the point where I knew I had to deal with life and every thing it threw at me alone, I knew I had 2 choices to make:
1. Keep on drinking and lose everything and simply drink my self to death.
2. Stop drinking and learn how to face reality.
################################################## ##
The entire family of the alcoholic needs to simply leave or throw out the alcoholic, if you still love them then let them know that, but tell them that you are not going to watch them die or help them die! Tell them the only thing you will do for them is take them to detox/rehab. If you loan or give them a dime for something to eat they will buy alcohol with it. If you give them something they will sell it to get alcohol.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
The families and friends of alcoholics need to watch out for their selfs and not help the alcoholic in any way, because the more you help them they longer they will drink, the sicker they will get, the more damage they will do to thier brain and organs.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
As long as an alcoholic thinks there is a chance of getting any kind of help from anyone, the longer they will drink. If the alcoholic has dirty nasty clothes and is living in his own filth the worst thing any one can do is give him a bath and clean clothes.
################################################## ##
Unless the alcoholic ask you to take them to detox/rehab the best thing you can do for him is ignore him.
################################################## ##
I am an alcoholic, I did not want to stop drinking until I saw there was absolutely nothing left for me to do but stop or die!
################################################## ##
What did I have to do to stop drinking and stay stopped?
I had to find a new love..... Sobriety! Sobriety is now my number one priority, if I make anyone or anything a higher priority then my sobriety I will drink again and lose it all!
My second love is now myself, because if I do not love myslef I can not love any one else, I can not love myself if I am drinking, as a result my sobriety is my #1 priority/love.
I have to thank my HP whom I chose to call God for all of my loves because with out my HP I could never have stopped drinking or learned to love myself.
As a result of the above now I truly love people, I love my wife and children, I no longer lie, decieve, or manipulate them or others.
################################################## ##
I guess in a nut shell what I am saying is if you love an alcoholic and they are still drinking the best thing you can do for them is to stop helping them in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
################################################## ##
If you do love an alcoholic to keep the alcoholic from destroying you and your children if they are entangled in the alcoholics disease you need to do as I did to get sober with one minor difference, instead of making sobriety your #1 priority, you need to make yourself your #1 priority and learn to love your self and not depend upon the alcoholic for love or trying to save the alcoholic from himself as your purpose in life.
The only person that can get an alcoholic sober and to stay sober is the alcoholic them selfs, not you.
Isn't it time to stop making excuses for other people, and ourselves, and get on with the business of thriving?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
the post of taz blew my hair back. straighforward, no nonsense, tell it like it is, wake up and smell the coffee, shake rainbows and lollipops outta the head, stop all the agonizing. it is, what it is. period.
however, i do respect how hard it is for those of us that love an alcoholic to let go of our hopes, our hearts for our alcoholics and swallow this information like taz presented.
i have lived it long enough to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that taz is telling my truths and realities in my relationship with my xah.
very hard to accept when we think we are only one program, one therapist, one spiritual awakening, one more half-way house away from our loved ones being saved so they may fit out lives again. ain't gonna happen.
thanks taz. for the truth. for your sobriety. and for sharing what it is really like inside the alcoholics mind.
however, i do respect how hard it is for those of us that love an alcoholic to let go of our hopes, our hearts for our alcoholics and swallow this information like taz presented.
i have lived it long enough to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that taz is telling my truths and realities in my relationship with my xah.
very hard to accept when we think we are only one program, one therapist, one spiritual awakening, one more half-way house away from our loved ones being saved so they may fit out lives again. ain't gonna happen.
thanks taz. for the truth. for your sobriety. and for sharing what it is really like inside the alcoholics mind.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by minnie
Isn't it time to stop making excuses for other people, and ourselves, and get on with the business of thriving?
(((minnie)))
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Folks I wish it was different, but it wasn't.
Do I understand how I could put a drink in front of my wife and children? No more then you all do.
Do I understand why no amount of begging, pleading, tears or the likes helped me see what I had become? No more then you all do.
All I have done is tried to paint a picture of what got me to stop, what stopped me was the whole world taking a step back from me and telling me they loved me, but were no longer going to help me in any manner to continue to kill myself and ruin thier lifes.
For this alcoholic I had to be left totally alone, just me and my bottle to face the world! I had to see that the bottle did not pay the bills, the bottle did not cook nor clean, the bottle did not bail my butt out of a jam I had got myself into. The bottle no longer loved me, when I passed out my bottle did not undress me and put me to bed, the bottle did not wash and fold my clothes, it did not tell any one that I was sick and could not make it. My bottle did nothing for me but ruin my life and those lifes that had been around me.
When I realized that when it was just me and my bottle and we could not face the world together is when I decided it was time to do something.
I thank God that I was allowed to see the above before I wound up dead, the longer family and friends helped me the longer I drank, if they had continued to help me thier help would have killed me and they would have allowed me to drag them down into the pits of hell right along with me.
They did the smartest thing they could for their selves, they stepped back and said "Martin we love you, but we are not going to let you kill us as you kill your self."
My heart breaks for every one of you, I now see the pain, mental anguish, and shame I brought to those that love me, my son is an active alcoholic, I am thankful I am a recovered alcoholic to where I know how to handle his problem, I handle his problem by staying sober myself, he knows how I got sober and how I stay sober, I am there for his wife and my grandsons and I pray a lot. When he has a problem he is on his own, I will help out his wife and my grand children if needed.
I pray that I can answer any questions from the other side of the fence in a manner that you all may have a bit of a grasp on what we really do not totally understand our selfs. Just keep in mind I have a disease, we are different, what makes sense to us may make no sense at all to you all. This is the primary reason that the best person to help an alcoholic is an alcoholic, we understand each other.
Please feel free to PM me if you have a question or would like me to put this old alkies 2 cents worth in on a thread.
Do I understand how I could put a drink in front of my wife and children? No more then you all do.
Do I understand why no amount of begging, pleading, tears or the likes helped me see what I had become? No more then you all do.
All I have done is tried to paint a picture of what got me to stop, what stopped me was the whole world taking a step back from me and telling me they loved me, but were no longer going to help me in any manner to continue to kill myself and ruin thier lifes.
For this alcoholic I had to be left totally alone, just me and my bottle to face the world! I had to see that the bottle did not pay the bills, the bottle did not cook nor clean, the bottle did not bail my butt out of a jam I had got myself into. The bottle no longer loved me, when I passed out my bottle did not undress me and put me to bed, the bottle did not wash and fold my clothes, it did not tell any one that I was sick and could not make it. My bottle did nothing for me but ruin my life and those lifes that had been around me.
When I realized that when it was just me and my bottle and we could not face the world together is when I decided it was time to do something.
I thank God that I was allowed to see the above before I wound up dead, the longer family and friends helped me the longer I drank, if they had continued to help me thier help would have killed me and they would have allowed me to drag them down into the pits of hell right along with me.
They did the smartest thing they could for their selves, they stepped back and said "Martin we love you, but we are not going to let you kill us as you kill your self."
My heart breaks for every one of you, I now see the pain, mental anguish, and shame I brought to those that love me, my son is an active alcoholic, I am thankful I am a recovered alcoholic to where I know how to handle his problem, I handle his problem by staying sober myself, he knows how I got sober and how I stay sober, I am there for his wife and my grandsons and I pray a lot. When he has a problem he is on his own, I will help out his wife and my grand children if needed.
I pray that I can answer any questions from the other side of the fence in a manner that you all may have a bit of a grasp on what we really do not totally understand our selfs. Just keep in mind I have a disease, we are different, what makes sense to us may make no sense at all to you all. This is the primary reason that the best person to help an alcoholic is an alcoholic, we understand each other.
Please feel free to PM me if you have a question or would like me to put this old alkies 2 cents worth in on a thread.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Backwoods, PA
Posts: 223
This has been incredibly helpful to me, Tazman, and I am very proud of you for over 7 months of sobriety.
I may seek out your wisdom in the future. I am having a tough time with my ex at the moment.
Thanks again!
Grace
I may seek out your wisdom in the future. I am having a tough time with my ex at the moment.
Thanks again!
Grace
Lurker
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Western NC
Posts: 783
Originally Posted by Tazman53
I now see the pain, mental anguish, and shame I brought to those that love me
Amen Brother, It took me just a few days of sobriety to see the love from my famally that previously I had never saw in my drunkin fog. It was this new found love (and friends on this board) that helped me in those first days, and continues to amaze me. Thanks Taz I yhink you pretty much nailed it.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
I had to be left totally alone, just me and my bottle to face the world!
My kids were gone, my car(s) were broken down, I was out of work. I had lost my house and my wife years ago. No one called. No one came over.
There was no one to turn to, there was no where to go.
Except AA.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Having had a "sleep" on Tazman's post, I've had another thought.
Yes, this post is focussed on the alcoholic which is something that I always urge people not to do as I know that the drinker's problem really isn't the root of OUR problem. However, because I was brought up to be other-focussed and to make things better by fixing other peoples problems, a vital part of my recovery comprised of focussing on the REALITY of his situation and behaviour in order for me to then detach and concentrate on myself. I had to pay even more attention to him, however it was crucial that I removed the rose tinted glasses. I could make no more excuses for him once I understood that he was just doing what he had always done (and is still doing) and it was my reactions to that which were causing me so many problems. And my reactions to him were simply the same reactions that I had displayed with others, although more magnified because HIS problems were on a larger scale than I had previously experienced.
I urge everyone to bear this thread in mind when welcoming newcomers - the sooner we all get the messages so eloquently presented by Taz, the sooner we can concentrate on our own stuff.
Yes, this post is focussed on the alcoholic which is something that I always urge people not to do as I know that the drinker's problem really isn't the root of OUR problem. However, because I was brought up to be other-focussed and to make things better by fixing other peoples problems, a vital part of my recovery comprised of focussing on the REALITY of his situation and behaviour in order for me to then detach and concentrate on myself. I had to pay even more attention to him, however it was crucial that I removed the rose tinted glasses. I could make no more excuses for him once I understood that he was just doing what he had always done (and is still doing) and it was my reactions to that which were causing me so many problems. And my reactions to him were simply the same reactions that I had displayed with others, although more magnified because HIS problems were on a larger scale than I had previously experienced.
I urge everyone to bear this thread in mind when welcoming newcomers - the sooner we all get the messages so eloquently presented by Taz, the sooner we can concentrate on our own stuff.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Please take care of your selfs first, do not let us drag you down with us by thinking you can save us, you can not, we have to save our selfs.
Please do not think you are part of the reason we drink, you are not responsible for our disease in any way shape form or fashion, we are sick and we may lay a guilt trip on you saying you did such and such which made me drink!!! That is the disease we have speaking and nothing else.
You are not responsible for us in any way, any thing you do thinking you are helping us (Except for dropping us of at detox/rehab(do not pay for it)) is hurting us and you.
You are responsible only for what you have control over.... YOU!
If you have children you do have a responsibilty to them, you have a responsibilty to do every thing in your power to protect them from us and our disease. Simply tell then that their parent is sick and you do not want them to become a victim. Please do not make us out to be monsters in their eyes, just be honest and let them know that we are suffering from a disease that the only person who can do a darn thing about it is us.
Please do not think you are part of the reason we drink, you are not responsible for our disease in any way shape form or fashion, we are sick and we may lay a guilt trip on you saying you did such and such which made me drink!!! That is the disease we have speaking and nothing else.
You are not responsible for us in any way, any thing you do thinking you are helping us (Except for dropping us of at detox/rehab(do not pay for it)) is hurting us and you.
You are responsible only for what you have control over.... YOU!
If you have children you do have a responsibilty to them, you have a responsibilty to do every thing in your power to protect them from us and our disease. Simply tell then that their parent is sick and you do not want them to become a victim. Please do not make us out to be monsters in their eyes, just be honest and let them know that we are suffering from a disease that the only person who can do a darn thing about it is us.
Sunny Side Up
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sth Australia
Posts: 3,802
A question? You tell them you will not watch this madness anymore and will always love them.
When children are involved it is bloody hard.
All these years she drank, we looked after the kids, dropped them off to guitar lessons, friends places, school outings, camps etc etc. It was all for the kids. Now the kids are 15 and 17. They have only recently left her and she is at her worse.
I wonder if all those years of looking after her kids, helped her to drink. Why would she stop when we were there to pick up the pieces for the kids. We bought them things, took them places, they stayed at our places on and off. The kids never had friends because they were embarrased to take them home.
I always felt because she knew her kids were being looked after, there was no reason to stop. Now that they have gone, it gives her another reason to bloody drink. so she says.
Help!
When children are involved it is bloody hard.
All these years she drank, we looked after the kids, dropped them off to guitar lessons, friends places, school outings, camps etc etc. It was all for the kids. Now the kids are 15 and 17. They have only recently left her and she is at her worse.
I wonder if all those years of looking after her kids, helped her to drink. Why would she stop when we were there to pick up the pieces for the kids. We bought them things, took them places, they stayed at our places on and off. The kids never had friends because they were embarrased to take them home.
I always felt because she knew her kids were being looked after, there was no reason to stop. Now that they have gone, it gives her another reason to bloody drink. so she says.
Help!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
(((justjo))) I just think it points to the any excuse will do theory. If nothing had been done for her kids, she would have used that as an excuse, too. I think it's fantastic her kids had someone to look after them. I remember growing up we had a similar situation with my father's sister and her husband, both alcoholics. They had 10 children, and no one stepped in. Most of them have very serious problems now, including addiction.
I understand how painful it is to watch them kill themselves. Try to remember it is nothing you did or didn't do that put the bottle to her lips. She did that all on her own.
I understand how painful it is to watch them kill themselves. Try to remember it is nothing you did or didn't do that put the bottle to her lips. She did that all on her own.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
I always felt because she knew her kids were being looked after, there was no reason to stop. Now that they have gone, it gives her another reason to bloody drink. so she says.
Help!
Help!
I am happy.
I am sad.
I lost my job.
I got a new job.
My mother died.
My wife had a baby.
I lost my house.
I bought a house.
I do not care what happens, good or bad, it is a damn good reason to drink.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
Sherry I can only thank God for those 40 years I was out there, I didn't kill myself or any one else, and God did for me what I could not do for myself once I was willing to let him start running the show, he gave me the strength to get sober and free and lifted my urge/need to drink as long as I maintain my relationship with him.
Sherry the saddest part of this disease is our victims and the fact that some of us have to die so that others may live.
Sherry the saddest part of this disease is our victims and the fact that some of us have to die so that others may live.
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