Anna

Mr. Christian, I'm not sure who you are basing your comment on, but I can assure you many addicts, me included, feel enormous guilt and shame for what we have done.

It took me a long time to begin to chip away at the guilt that I was carrying around with me, and even now, there are times when I am overwhelmed by guilt. I know that I cannot go back and change how I was and I know that what I went through happened for a reason. But, I still live with the knowledge every day.

I am not sure what your point about AA is. For the record, I am not an AA person, but I have taken huge steps in moving forward with my life. And, I have found that, in fact I am not weak. I have a huge amount of inner strength, without which I wouldn't be where I am today.

Nuudawn

Freedom: The power to think or act without restraint; the capacity to exercise choice.

What does it mean to be free and what does it mean to be in bondage. To understand freedom, one must understand what it means to be in bondage. To be in bondage is to be stuck in this or that possibility, having lost the ability to choose from an infinite range of responses.

Addiction is both slavery and bondage. My bondage was the prison of my own conditioning. Recovery is all about the freedom of choice.

I willfully chose to quit drinking a number of times...unfortunately, I could not maintain that choice as I was imprisoned by my own conditioning and intellect; my ego. I have been credited recently for making the choice to quit drinking. It is credit I found uncomfortable taking. I did not choose to quit this last time, I surrendered to defeat. I surrendered my will once I accepted it was my thinking and inability to make good choices for myself that got me into such a mess. My ego literally crumbled and I recognized that whoever or whatever (I suspect my wounded and fear driven ego) was making very bad choices and could no longer be trusted. I reached out of myself in pain and agony, tears and desperation for help. In the end, I believe, my pain simply seeped through the booze. It didn't work anymore. My drinking ended for the same reason it began....the avoidance of pain and the denial of fear.

If you want to think of me as a weak person...that is your right Mr. C. In all honesty, your opinion has very little bearing on my soul. This forum is a celebration of differing opinions, views and experiences. I welcome yours even tho I disagree with your admitted posture. Viva la difference...

I attempt to contribute here with my insight into my own addiction...to provide comfort and understanding; to empower others to sing their own song rather than attempting to do battle in a war they are powerless in.

I don't need any excuses in my life. I never blamed anyone for my drinking...except perhaps God. I have since worked that out and admitted my error in thinking. My particular affliction was the false belief that I needed no one...that I could work everything out on my own...that I was not anyone's victim..that I was independent and could either figure out or tough out everything in my life all by myself. AA is not a crutch for me...I very much take what I need and leave the rest. I'm much more of a free thinker now. AA is a community of support just like SR. I find comfort in community and brother/sisterhood...in the sharing of our struggles and triumphs....if that's a crutch in your eyes, I guess I need one. I need people, love, understanding and support. I'm no longer ashamed to admit that. THAT was my disease I think.

I make mistakes, I held onto false beliefs, I struggle with fear and issues of my own esteem. I'm not sure if I did not like myself or if I just didn't know who the hell I truly was.

Am I weak? No. That would imply some basis of comparison. I am no better or worse and cannot be compared to my brother or sister. Comparison is an evil of the ego and invites battle. We are equal...all struggling to grow and get on thru life.

Was I wrong about a myriad of thoughts and beliefs? Yes.

I am simply human.

MsGolightly

the overall disease is that of addiction. alcoholism, substance abuse, eating disorders, sex addiction, all fall under the disease of addiction. clearly, a using addict would not claim he has a disease, same as an alcoholic, but research has overwhelmingly found that those who enter recovery and maintain sobriety believe that they once suffered from a disease, that prevented them from getting help and seeking a cure.

just a thought!

MsGolightly

nuudawn, excellent post! i admire you, and anyone else who has entered recovery, because it involves just what you said... working through your own fears and esteem. is that weak? gosh, no. if anything, it shows great strength, and i admire you for deciding that you wanted to face yourself and discover who you truly are. most people go their whole lives without ever doing this... because they are scared of what they'll find out. what you have done takes great courage and i would call you anything but "weak."

prodigal

My husband has been deployed to numerous Muslim countires. Alcohol is not allowed. However, he kept noticing three rather friendly camels walking around the airstrip he was rebuilding in a remote area of Pakistan. He asked one of the construction workers what was up with the camels. They were well-trained animals. They had packs on their backs - filled with illegal liquor. And, yes, there were PLENTY of A's in Pakistan. As far as the Saudi's are concerned, they all vacation in their new mega hot-spot, Bahrain. My husband went there several times. Plenty of Muslims packing the bars in that Mid-East playground.

LGLG07

wow this is some thread ! Ive been trying to keep up over the past few days. I think chero originally started this thread but then that thread broke down into two other threads .

I am learning soooo much . Nuudawn , thank you for all your insight . I just love hearing things from the recovery A's point of view . When you explained how you never dreamed of not growing up when you were a little girl , it really set off alarms in my head !

IMO , in this day and age (im 38) we are soooo much more educated about alcohol/ism then we were 30 yrs ago . with research materials at our fingertips (ie internet) , not to mention all the new information that has been discovered through research and science. When I was growing up my family was always throwing partys . Theres 5 kids so something was always going on , communions, confirmations , graduations .. all back to back .. all backyard spring & summer partys with a stocked bar . We knew the party was over when 2 or more of my uncles were fist fighting drunk rolling down the hill in the front of my house . The cops usually showed up just to break up the fight and send everyone home (yup , even the drunks just went home .. sign of the times) . the words alcohol or alcoholism were never spoken in my house even though my family was full of it and them .

when i was in my later years of high school , much like nuudawn , drinking was the thing to do . we all did it . i had a choice but was not educated and even if i was at that tender age do we really think of consequences ? I drank right along with all my friends , as my A did although we didnt know each other then . Im not an alcoholic so as I grew up the choice to get more responsible and slow down on the partying was an easy one for me to make . I had a clear mind , one that was not feeling the effects of 3 or more years of drinking . I dont have this disease . I imagine that for my peers that were alcoholics, by the time this choice came to light there was already damage done to their brain and they couldnt make a rational decision , therefore the beginning stages of alcoholism have taken over . I think (IMO) as the disease progresses , A's do lose more control over making rational decisions and choices . I know that I cant even have a conversation with my A about the weather without him talking in circles , drunk or sober .

Now is the disease heriditary ? Are we born with it ? Im not so sure but would love to hear your points of view . Maybe some As are born with it already instilled in their brains , maybe with some its a learned behavior . Do you think that maybe if its a learned behavior in some cases , those people arent born with it but do it because its what their parents do and then after a few years of abusing alcohol are physically addicted to it making it more like a condition than a disease ??

Not that we need any more questions to ponder but in reading all the posts all these new thoughts are coming to mind and my opinions seem to keep changing , or maybe not changing but evolving.

Thank you again everyone , please keep posting !

SaTiT

You say ..you notice the smokes in AA..Hmmmm ?
Are you still drinking ?

i don't know..my ex-wife and I got drunk together all the time....
blamed problems on the ex for years...

WantsOut

I have to say I'm more with Mr. C on this one. I have seen alcoholics/addicts change pretty much because they were forced to. One friend who was a junkie quit dope so she wouldn't go to prison. This is a person who had done some very disgusting things for heroin ... things so terrible that you'd assume that she'd only do them if she couldn't help herself. Well, apparently she did want to do them because when the courts told her prison or heroin, she quit. No brain operation or drugs to cure a "brain disease", inherited or otherwise. A decision was made - that's what changed.

I've seen the same thing with alcoholics.

It seems to be a disease until the consequences get too crazy, then somehow they "choose" to quit.

SaTiT

Ever heard of a functioning alcoholic before ?

AA has non-smoking meetings too...

queenteree

When the consequences get so bad, and they have hit bottom, it's not that they "chose to quit" then - they had to quit. There is a difference. Chosing to quit means it's a piece of cake, just stop and that's it. I'm not an alcoholic/addict, but from what I've read and know, it is a daily struggle to maintain sobriety. My AH was sober for over 14 years, and he'd sometimes say "I wish I could drink like a normal person" and I would say "well you can't" and end of story, he didn't drink. He was always alot of fun, sweet and kind, hard worker, good provider, but I think something was always missing for him. He missed his beer. But he stayed sober for himself and for his family. Now he has alcoholic liver disease and does that stop him from drinking? He sees his health failing, does that stop him? No. Tell me that is not a disease. And while we're on the subject - but alittle OT - they don't allow smoking commercials on TV. Yet they allow all those beer and alcohol commercials glorifying drinking, it's the social thing to do, and making that beer look so appetizing to alcoholics in recovery that I think it possibly could trigger some relapses. You know, sometimes when your watching a movie and a commercial comes on for Burger King or ice cream and you're thinking "wow, that looks so good" and if you still have time you run to the store to get it. Imagine being an alcoholic and/or recovering alcoholic and seeing those beer commercials pouring a beer with the perfect head into a nice frosted glass. And then they say "drink responsibly". How can you tell an alcoholic to "drink responsibly". Get the picture?

MsGolightly

i think that for some, yes, the disease is hereditary. i don't think everyone has it in their families, but i think it accounts for a good percentage of alcoholics. going along with that, i think for some these people who do have alcoholism in their blood, that they also learn the behavior. they see at a young age a parent or another relative drinking, and they learn that this is acceptable behavior, while at the same time, being predisposed (or not) to it.

for those who do not have any other addicts in their family, perhaps it is a learned behavior that progresses into a disease. take anorexia or bulimia. in a lot of these cases, the behavior is learned, based on what they see around them. they might see that they're not good enough, or that it's what you need to do to look like someone in a magazine. regardless, their brains tell them to keep doing it, and they become addicted to the way it feels like to NOT eat, or they become addicted to what it feels like to purge. sure, their mom or dad may have done the same thing, but in this case, i think it's a disease that may be fostered and maintained by the behavior of others that we see in our environment.

i also think that one can become physically addicted to alcohol, or any other drug, even if their parents never did the drug themselves. if you do something enough, that makes you feel GOOD, that makes you escape reality, you figure, hey maybe i should keep this up. you get addicted to the desire to escape. you get addicted to hiding from yourself, and the alcohol is the method to do all of this... for some. in my opinion.

MsGolightly

gosh, and isn't it terrible. i've found myself watching tv lately and just turning it off when i see a commercial for alcohol - and i have no drinking problem! it just makes me sick.

my drug of choice is sugar. i LOVE sugar. i love candy (although not chocolate, go figure). but hell, if i saw a commercial for skittles or something similar, i'd crave it until i went out and bought it. all i can think about are the stupid skittles! now, i'm not diabetic and i have no problems with sugar except that i'm sure i'll have many cavities develop down the road... but it's something i know isn't really GREAT for me, but it's something that i crave.

i do the same with sleep! if i'm exhausted, haven't been sleeping well, or whatever the reason, and i see one of those commercials for ambien or lunesta, it makes me want to sleep, even in the middle of the day! the media has such a profound effect on us. if there were no ads for alcohol, would relapses be as common? if there were no liquor stores, would a common trigger disappear? who knows for sure, but i think things like this can really have a profound effect on our minds... especially when a disease has clouded our brains.

Sunflower

well just a little note-not to start another issue--Medcal professionals now do not agree that all need to ''hit rock bottom'' to become sober again.

Also I take the blame for starting this thread!!!!LOL

I have enjoyed reading all your responses wether I agree with them or not.
The more we share the more we learn.
My main point was we need to be more educated with the ''addictive personality" drugs-sex-alcohol-food whatever.

AA is a wonderful program- but really it is not for everyone--and it is the only ''free''program out there.

Alcoholism has been with us forever and I am all for the Md/Psych testing-studying and doing anything they can to try and answer some of our questions.

We will then understand that''we didn't cause it'' but maybe down the road thre will be a cure for this disease.

We need to become advocates for more treatment programs--for everyone--not just the rich--and programs that last a year--the time needed to recoup--and for the families to be healed as well.
More money for specialists to learn all they can.

I still think there should be a high tax on alcohol--the money should be used for treatment programs and research---just like the ciggarrette tax.

If we gave the addict more options and better ones for recovery-the world would be a better place--don't you agree?

How many lives would be saved????

Utahman

At some point I think the choice to drink overcomes them. In my case, my wife CHOSE to (started at 40) and then at some point it was unstoppable. I do not beleive that someone was born an alcoholic. They made choices they could not come out of. I rarely hear them admit this. They started to drink b/c they liked to get drunk.

That is the choice they made! Don't blame it on anyone but them.

My wife's rehab clinic sells that BS that it was not their fault, genetices, disease. They miss step one, you drink b/c you like it.

I am frustrated at the BS excuses and my spouse telling me she had no choice b/c her fathers, brother-uncle's- half-brother was an alcoholic so I am too.

BS!

MsGolightly

utah, i don't know, we'll have to disagree.

children are born addicted to alcohol if their mother drank.

children in elementary school get drunk nowadays, adolescents in high school drink to be cool with their friends and can't stop.

like it or not, a genetic component has been discovered. you can either refuse to admit what has been found, or you can use it as a better way to understand those suffering with the disease.

your wife is one example out of millions. i wouldn't say the rehab centers are feeding a lot of BS... i would say they know a lot more about it than you think they do. they've seen many more addicts than your wife and are more likely to provide answers that have been backed up by research and decades of testing.

there isn't a genetic component with everyone, but there are for a good portion of them. just because you feel your wife isn't one of them, doesn't mean the other part of the population has no genetic component. your wife is one person, not all of them.

Sunflower

like I said learn all you can--it is well documented that alcoholism is genetic.....Also that people who have addictive personalities--have lower level of seratonin in their brains--so do people with chronic depression..did they choose to have that? Nope they were born thatway--that is their chemical makeup----I know there is a Psych here in this forum who could explain this better than me..........

SaTiT

If you soak a cucumber in viniger long enough, it'll trun into a pickle,
but you can't trun a pickle back into a cucumber.

mmm...You can't squeeze blood out of a trun up.

Sunflower

as usual I have no idea what you are saying

MsGolightly

i was wondering that myself!

AnxiousParent

I'd say it is general knowledge that the scientific community has confirmed that addiction/alcoholism is a medical issue that is the result of genetics and it is manifested in the brain chemistry of the person who has the condition. I tend to think of it more as a genetic condition or brain disorder than a disease but that's just a choice of words - it's clearly got biochemical and genetic components.

Every time I try to stop putting sugar in my tea or think of making a silly small change like not sleeping with a pillow I can see how hard it must be to give up something that has an actual physical craving associated with it - versus just something I like or prefer.

I'm glad they are developing drugs that help with the craving but I know that my son will need to want to get help of some kind before any of it will do him any good. No way is this guy weak or just engaging in certain chosen behaviors. He is suffering and struggling with this and has been from age 14-22 (current age). I don't know if he'll seek help but when he does I'll be so very glad there are options like AA and NA as well as medical treatment to help with the physical craving.

I picture him in a river that is kind of fun for swimming at first and then has rapids and now there's definitely a waterfall ahead. Nothing I can do to pull him out but I know that the banks of the river and bridges across the river are just lined with AA and NA people and all he's got to do is reach up one hand and one of them will be there to jerk him out. I just hope the waterfall is far enough away! I am mainly grateful for all the people in recovery who are willing to stand along that river and on those bridges, ready to help a newcomer!

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the disease discussion!