A Choice???
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
No one knows why--some do some don't....
It is a disease that affects the thought process maybe thats why
seems the craving is that strong for some
It is an Addiction/Disease--so even if they know what they need to do the addiction holds them back
We all know alcoholics---would you trust them with anything important--to make any desicions for you?
I wouldn't....
Many do seek help-why don't they make it?
as I said before many unanswered questions--no denial--just uncontrolable craving?
There are many brittle diabetics who can go into comas -have kidney failure and die if they don't follow their diets etc---why do so many of them fail?Not follow diets--lose a leg because of it etc...still noncompliant?
Not all people follow advice given to them even though they know it could kill them.
Even worse for a drug/alcohol/addict-because there is no clear thinking there....
It is a disease that affects the thought process maybe thats why
seems the craving is that strong for some
It is an Addiction/Disease--so even if they know what they need to do the addiction holds them back
We all know alcoholics---would you trust them with anything important--to make any desicions for you?
I wouldn't....
Many do seek help-why don't they make it?
as I said before many unanswered questions--no denial--just uncontrolable craving?
There are many brittle diabetics who can go into comas -have kidney failure and die if they don't follow their diets etc---why do so many of them fail?Not follow diets--lose a leg because of it etc...still noncompliant?
Not all people follow advice given to them even though they know it could kill them.
Even worse for a drug/alcohol/addict-because there is no clear thinking there....
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,504
Originally Posted by Mr. Christian 
Fact is they do choose this, Also they are in fact very weak people to tell you the truth.
Sadly it is beliefs like this that make it hard for people with addiction to seek the help they need and to move forward with their recovery.
Alcoholism is not a character defect.
And, I could not imagine anyone choosing to be an alcoholic.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
It is clear some here are not opened minded and everything is black/white for them when it comes to A....I have come across many people in AA who feel that there way is the right way--try and remember it is not the only way! AA is a fantastic program for all who need it.Saved many lives.A few I know personally.
But lets not close our eyes to all the new medicines and studies that are out for this disease......they need to keep learning all they can about it.
When I found a Doctor that dealt with purely addiction (and he was hard to find)Some AA people said it was a ''cop out''--when the Doctor put him on camphor for craving and it worked I heard''he doesn't need it he only needs AA""That may be true for somebut not all...
How do you explain that over 90 % of alcoholics have underlying mental issues they are covering ''self medicating" with alcohol?
But lets not close our eyes to all the new medicines and studies that are out for this disease......they need to keep learning all they can about it.
When I found a Doctor that dealt with purely addiction (and he was hard to find)Some AA people said it was a ''cop out''--when the Doctor put him on camphor for craving and it worked I heard''he doesn't need it he only needs AA""That may be true for somebut not all...
How do you explain that over 90 % of alcoholics have underlying mental issues they are covering ''self medicating" with alcohol?
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by 51anna
Alcoholism is not a character defect.
amen!
i love my ex, i always will, despite everything we went through together and despite the rough times we had. i do not now, nor will i ever, believe that she is "weak" or that she wants to be an alcoholic. i understand that she has a disease that has control over her mind, body, and heart, and i respect the fact that she is living with this awful disease, and i'm not --- i have no right to judge her or call her weak, or imply that she has a character defect.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by Sunflower
How do you explain that over 90 % of alcoholics have underlying mental issues they are covering ''self medicating" with alcohol?
sunflower, i've read that this is the treatment approach used at the Promises facility in malibu. they don't preach AA, but rather, they focus on the reasons WHY one is drinking, and never letting go of the fact that it is a disease. my ex read a book on their approach and it sounded fascinating to me.
alcoholism and other addictions are often comorbid with other psychological disorders... such as post traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety, etc. - but not all, of course.
excellent point!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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good you are keeping an open mind--the more you learn the better equiped you will be to handle all this A stuff.Thats what I personally decided from day one--I would learn all I could about this disease.I am not an A I never drink.I am dealing with my own battles with fibro and Lupus--learning all I can--and you would be suprised how little they know about it.
My AS was diagnosed as bi polar after being sober for 3 months thanks to the camphor medication.He is now off the Camphor and on a NEW med for bi polar--he is like a new man.Still it will be a long journey for him-he may be able to control the bi polar--but the addiction to alcohol is another story, I believe if they would have diagnosed him years ago with the bi polar--he would not be an alcoholic today.Both his illnesses are lifetime diagnosis....he has been sober for over7 months now
My AS was diagnosed as bi polar after being sober for 3 months thanks to the camphor medication.He is now off the Camphor and on a NEW med for bi polar--he is like a new man.Still it will be a long journey for him-he may be able to control the bi polar--but the addiction to alcohol is another story, I believe if they would have diagnosed him years ago with the bi polar--he would not be an alcoholic today.Both his illnesses are lifetime diagnosis....he has been sober for over7 months now
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
It's just confusing when you're at a certain stage through all
of the chaos and madness of it all.
I would pond my head against wall, becuase my GF is
a soscial worker , and could she not make those sane discision
for herself. And GF was sober for 8 years and her life was
pretty much destroy the first time she got sober. her
profession was in someway helping to combate against the
disease. She had to remove many children from a terrible
enviorment. So why did she destroy our lives seeing that
everyday and experince of the wreakage she went through
before ?
So whe she relapsed
it took me a while to seperate the person from the ism,
becuase i was so angery of what was happening to our lives
I saw it fall apart in front of me. i felt so powerless at times.
But i would try to control or manage our lives. But the damn
ism would wreck it. There plenty of wreakage that i need not
mention on SR. I wish it upon no one.
I started dating other people..becuase i was sick of alcoholism.
My gf seperated at least 3-4 times already. i was trying to
move on with my life. But i found out that i was only
attracted to certain types of women...wheather they drink or not.
it open up my eyes.. if nothing changed in me, nothing out
side of me would changed. My living conditions , my life
not the car ,house ,money. i have a nice car too ya know.
So I started focusing on myself, healing me. It just so happened
my gf hit her bottom . I thought the damages would be irreparable,
becuase it rip my heart apart.
Miracles do happen in recovery. All is forgiven.
of the chaos and madness of it all.
I would pond my head against wall, becuase my GF is
a soscial worker , and could she not make those sane discision
for herself. And GF was sober for 8 years and her life was
pretty much destroy the first time she got sober. her
profession was in someway helping to combate against the
disease. She had to remove many children from a terrible
enviorment. So why did she destroy our lives seeing that
everyday and experince of the wreakage she went through
before ?
So whe she relapsed
it took me a while to seperate the person from the ism,
becuase i was so angery of what was happening to our lives
I saw it fall apart in front of me. i felt so powerless at times.
But i would try to control or manage our lives. But the damn
ism would wreck it. There plenty of wreakage that i need not
mention on SR. I wish it upon no one.
I started dating other people..becuase i was sick of alcoholism.
My gf seperated at least 3-4 times already. i was trying to
move on with my life. But i found out that i was only
attracted to certain types of women...wheather they drink or not.
it open up my eyes.. if nothing changed in me, nothing out
side of me would changed. My living conditions , my life
not the car ,house ,money. i have a nice car too ya know.
So I started focusing on myself, healing me. It just so happened
my gf hit her bottom . I thought the damages would be irreparable,
becuase it rip my heart apart.
Miracles do happen in recovery. All is forgiven.
full of hope
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,170
Well, Sun, this has been quite an interesting thread.
I do not see how they have a choice. My otherwise, fabulous, wonderful husband surely would not choose the chaos of alcoholism.
If alcoholism is a disease, an illness, then I don't see what the question is. I am not an alcoholic even though I did my share of drinking in college. What was the difference? I don't have that disease!
On the other side, I've seen people diagnosed with cancer choose(there's that word again) no treatment. And I remember thinking, they are crazy! Help is out there and they aren't taking it. So, why don't alcoholics seek treatment?
The alcohol has blinded them? They don't realize they have a disease? They feel hopeless?
I do think there comes a point when the alcohol is in control and they can no longer make a rational choice. I don't know when that is. And I don't understand how that works when you think that there are people out there who have drank for decades and recover.
I do not see how they have a choice. My otherwise, fabulous, wonderful husband surely would not choose the chaos of alcoholism.
If alcoholism is a disease, an illness, then I don't see what the question is. I am not an alcoholic even though I did my share of drinking in college. What was the difference? I don't have that disease!
On the other side, I've seen people diagnosed with cancer choose(there's that word again) no treatment. And I remember thinking, they are crazy! Help is out there and they aren't taking it. So, why don't alcoholics seek treatment?
The alcohol has blinded them? They don't realize they have a disease? They feel hopeless?
I do think there comes a point when the alcohol is in control and they can no longer make a rational choice. I don't know when that is. And I don't understand how that works when you think that there are people out there who have drank for decades and recover.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Murrieta, Ca
Posts: 2,683
Mr. C.
A lot of us, until the end at least, try to continue to carry on and function. That includes getting up every morning and going to work after the obligatory morning shakes & pukes.
It means de-toxing at home one more time. (Never mind the ants & spiders on the walls) Keeping a bucket next to the bed, and trying to hold water down. Watching our BP sore to 210/160. Hoping against hope that THIS time it sticks.
It means living in constant fear of some indescribable, nameless, impending catastrophe, and telling everyone it's going to be OK when they're scared.
It means wanting to die, but carrying on anyway because of concern for family and children.
Finally, it means admitting complete defeat. Slowly changing our entire belief system. Realizing that everything we held dear as a truth was in actuality a distorted reality. Looking back on the damage done, and making amends where possible. Learning how to live life in a way completely foreign to us.
I was dead. I've seen Hell. I was reborn.
Weak ?
I think not.
To the OP. Yes, it's a disease. True that if we never took the first drink, it would never set in. Read "Under The Influence" for more information. It does a great job of explaining the mental and physical aspects of alcoholism.
A lot of us, until the end at least, try to continue to carry on and function. That includes getting up every morning and going to work after the obligatory morning shakes & pukes.
It means de-toxing at home one more time. (Never mind the ants & spiders on the walls) Keeping a bucket next to the bed, and trying to hold water down. Watching our BP sore to 210/160. Hoping against hope that THIS time it sticks.
It means living in constant fear of some indescribable, nameless, impending catastrophe, and telling everyone it's going to be OK when they're scared.
It means wanting to die, but carrying on anyway because of concern for family and children.
Finally, it means admitting complete defeat. Slowly changing our entire belief system. Realizing that everything we held dear as a truth was in actuality a distorted reality. Looking back on the damage done, and making amends where possible. Learning how to live life in a way completely foreign to us.
I was dead. I've seen Hell. I was reborn.
Weak ?
I think not.
To the OP. Yes, it's a disease. True that if we never took the first drink, it would never set in. Read "Under The Influence" for more information. It does a great job of explaining the mental and physical aspects of alcoholism.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Originally Posted by Mr. Christian
Fact is they do choose this, just like my ex. It's a great escape from the real world. It makes them numb, unfeeling. Also they are in fact very weak people to tell you the truth. I've seen many gain strength in AA. They pick themselves up when they make that choice to do so.
Have you worked the 12 steps yourself? Have you read the BIG BOOK?
Have you worked the 12 steps yourself? Have you read the BIG BOOK?
Whoa, whoa, whoa here. I did not choose to become an alcoholic. I did not sit around as a little girl and think..man, I never wanna grow up; I wanna make an a$$ of myself on a regular basis, I wanna worry my family, I wanna destroy every relationship I've ever had, I wanna be miserable and lonely and have no frickin idea that the booze is what's making me miserable and lonely. Ya, I wanna grow up and be emotionally ********.
When I started drinking as a teenager...everybody in my peer group was getting drop dead drunk back then. Most of start drinking and get infected with the damn affliction before we've even scratched the surface of maturity...and the ability to make good choices. As a drunk, I didn't make choices...I had reactions over and over and over...to me it becomes much more of a mental illness than a disease. I was ..without a doubt...quite mentally ill in the end. At 4 months sober, I take baby steps back to sanity every day. I'm getting there...gradually.
Mr. C...I take issue with your judgement that alcoholics are simply "weak" people. That is a tremendous oversimplification. I find most of your posts quite wise...tho this one appears tinged with an undertone of some unresolved hostility.
And ya, I've read the Big Book.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
Posts: 2,136
Just my opinion, but this thread proves the fact that we should take what we want and leave what we don't. There are "gray" thinkers and "black-and-white" thinkers. I appreciate both points of view. My views are my views. If I don't agree with what you have to say, I don't take it personally. End of sentence. End of paragraph.
I know my AH was insecure when he was 18. Alcohol bolstered his confidence. Initially it felt good to him. He did not consciously pick up and say, "Gee I'm a weak, short geeky guy ... I'll have another to bolster my feeling of machismo so I can talk to that cute girl at the end of the bar."
Nothing conscious. Just a decision. For many of us during our late teens and early 20's, it was a time of making bad choices, without addiction developing. We walked away and chalked it up to the folly of youth. For others, like my AH, something took hold. Deeper psychological issues? Perhaps. A genetic predisposition to become an alcoholic? Sounds likely.
I'll never know. But whatever .... I don't think anyone picks up and decides, "Hey, cool, I'm just a weak slob so I'll deny reality by getting trashed rather than dealing with life." I think this is working on a very deep level that is not apparent to the addict. All they know is they feel better, less anxious, calmer ..... initially.
All addictions, when they take hold, come back to bite the user in the butt. By then it is too late, they're too mired in the addictoin, and things are getting worse but they're now protecting their addiction ... then it is solely up to them to see through the muck and fix it. Or to choose not to.
I know my AH was insecure when he was 18. Alcohol bolstered his confidence. Initially it felt good to him. He did not consciously pick up and say, "Gee I'm a weak, short geeky guy ... I'll have another to bolster my feeling of machismo so I can talk to that cute girl at the end of the bar."
Nothing conscious. Just a decision. For many of us during our late teens and early 20's, it was a time of making bad choices, without addiction developing. We walked away and chalked it up to the folly of youth. For others, like my AH, something took hold. Deeper psychological issues? Perhaps. A genetic predisposition to become an alcoholic? Sounds likely.
I'll never know. But whatever .... I don't think anyone picks up and decides, "Hey, cool, I'm just a weak slob so I'll deny reality by getting trashed rather than dealing with life." I think this is working on a very deep level that is not apparent to the addict. All they know is they feel better, less anxious, calmer ..... initially.
All addictions, when they take hold, come back to bite the user in the butt. By then it is too late, they're too mired in the addictoin, and things are getting worse but they're now protecting their addiction ... then it is solely up to them to see through the muck and fix it. Or to choose not to.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: phoenix arizona
Posts: 741
In the long run, it doesn't really matter to me whether it's a choice or not for them.
I know I always have a choice to protect my own boundaries whether alcohol is involved or not. My issues have always been with me. Having been with an alcohol helped bring them to the surface and allowed me to start dealing with them whether the A was with me or not. I chose not to be with him.
I know I always have a choice to protect my own boundaries whether alcohol is involved or not. My issues have always been with me. Having been with an alcohol helped bring them to the surface and allowed me to start dealing with them whether the A was with me or not. I chose not to be with him.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
I'm a greatful recoverying alcoholic. I'm greatful that by
the grace of god. I was introduce to AA when I was 22.
Btw..I'm ex-military...surely i have a lot of will power and
self descipline. I'm not weak by any means, i functioned
quit will for years. My niegbors love me. I got up and
went to work dress nice like everybody. Drank like everybody
I wasn't stupid, I knew every nuts and bolts to a power plant like the back of my hand. I can look at all kinds of blue prints schematic and comprehend it easily,and explain it my superiors. I can tell you what tools are needed to repair each equipment on the top of my head. I made plenty of money.
how weak or fearful you do think i have if i can work
on a steam relief valve haning 10 stories high. knowing
it can slice me in half, If i don't make a correct decision ?
havn't walked in my shoes...this is a fact.
btw..i rip on the electric guitar..i write my own music.
Which requires, decipline,focus, dedications, creativity.
the grace of god. I was introduce to AA when I was 22.
Btw..I'm ex-military...surely i have a lot of will power and
self descipline. I'm not weak by any means, i functioned
quit will for years. My niegbors love me. I got up and
went to work dress nice like everybody. Drank like everybody
I wasn't stupid, I knew every nuts and bolts to a power plant like the back of my hand. I can look at all kinds of blue prints schematic and comprehend it easily,and explain it my superiors. I can tell you what tools are needed to repair each equipment on the top of my head. I made plenty of money.
how weak or fearful you do think i have if i can work
on a steam relief valve haning 10 stories high. knowing
it can slice me in half, If i don't make a correct decision ?
havn't walked in my shoes...this is a fact.
btw..i rip on the electric guitar..i write my own music.
Which requires, decipline,focus, dedications, creativity.
My Cape Is at The Cleaners
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 1,117
I think it always is interesting when one challenges a sacred cow. Years ago everyone was agoraphobic and afraid to leave the house and today everyone is BI-polar.
All thought history we have been making simple excuse to explain behavior and never really taking full brunt for our own actions. Humans really like an excuse or a disorder to explain any action or bad behavior.
AA has lasted so many years with people helping each other through fellowship and simple principles and so has Alanon. “Taking control over our own lives”
As I said before there are people though out the world from many races that do not drink because of religious beliefs and its funny that there are no alcoholics.
Ever notice the large amount of smokers on an AA meeting break? From one crutch to another.
Drinking, drugs, smoking to born again lifestyles to embracing AA, it’s all something to use to cope with.
I’m sure some of you don’t like Dr. Laura but there is a very famous one there that also believes it is a behavioral issue. It’s not like I’m saying the world is flat or round, but guys isn’t it funny how if I’m correct then that means people are just human?
The talk show mentality in this society has given us reasons for bad behavior for years, and we choose to accept this because it is an easy way out.
The not my fault attitude is so much easier then taking responsibility for ones self.
I can go ahead like you come up with countless doctors to support this and numerous reports also but it’s not needed.
The underlining anger issues statement gave me good laugh after reading some of the responses to what I wrote.
Yes I did say weak, because it’s true to a point. Even in Alanon we see many who stay for years and years to hold on to group and meetings instead of finally getting on and doing it alone.
I suppose that’s decease also.
No, AA has helped millions through personal accountability and changing behavior. No drugs or surgery or even kemo my friends.
You put substance in your body long enough and it will crave it to function no matter if its sugar or a drug.
It will affect your brain, your body and how you look at life. We do things to feel better, we are human and it’s easier then looking in the mirror and changing ones life.
All thought history we have been making simple excuse to explain behavior and never really taking full brunt for our own actions. Humans really like an excuse or a disorder to explain any action or bad behavior.
AA has lasted so many years with people helping each other through fellowship and simple principles and so has Alanon. “Taking control over our own lives”
As I said before there are people though out the world from many races that do not drink because of religious beliefs and its funny that there are no alcoholics.
Ever notice the large amount of smokers on an AA meeting break? From one crutch to another.
Drinking, drugs, smoking to born again lifestyles to embracing AA, it’s all something to use to cope with.
I’m sure some of you don’t like Dr. Laura but there is a very famous one there that also believes it is a behavioral issue. It’s not like I’m saying the world is flat or round, but guys isn’t it funny how if I’m correct then that means people are just human?
The talk show mentality in this society has given us reasons for bad behavior for years, and we choose to accept this because it is an easy way out.
The not my fault attitude is so much easier then taking responsibility for ones self.
I can go ahead like you come up with countless doctors to support this and numerous reports also but it’s not needed.
The underlining anger issues statement gave me good laugh after reading some of the responses to what I wrote.
Yes I did say weak, because it’s true to a point. Even in Alanon we see many who stay for years and years to hold on to group and meetings instead of finally getting on and doing it alone.
I suppose that’s decease also.
No, AA has helped millions through personal accountability and changing behavior. No drugs or surgery or even kemo my friends.
You put substance in your body long enough and it will crave it to function no matter if its sugar or a drug.
It will affect your brain, your body and how you look at life. We do things to feel better, we are human and it’s easier then looking in the mirror and changing ones life.
Sunny Side Up
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sth Australia
Posts: 3,802
Firstly, I applaud Nuudawn, marvellous just marvellous. Be proud.
My sis is a very ill alcoholic. This I mean she may die soon. It breaks my heart, Ive felt all the pain, worry and love for her. I still do. I kept saying she chose to do it too. I suppose we dont understand completely but I can now. I think! My sis turned up at my house late at night with a complete stranger smashed. He had all her bags, she had been kicked out of rehab. Stays with me a week. I Drop her off at home and within one hour gets booze and hello! still drunk today. 3 days later.
See its hard to us to reallyyyyy get it. The hope is always there.
I suppose in my time with this, I just ask why??? is this happening.
My sis is a very ill alcoholic. This I mean she may die soon. It breaks my heart, Ive felt all the pain, worry and love for her. I still do. I kept saying she chose to do it too. I suppose we dont understand completely but I can now. I think! My sis turned up at my house late at night with a complete stranger smashed. He had all her bags, she had been kicked out of rehab. Stays with me a week. I Drop her off at home and within one hour gets booze and hello! still drunk today. 3 days later.
See its hard to us to reallyyyyy get it. The hope is always there.
I suppose in my time with this, I just ask why??? is this happening.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: OHIO
Posts: 959
There are two camps on this issue:
1: They believe that it is a disease and has a genetic factor therefore they cant help what they do...
2: This camp feels that if you can stop the phycal damage from progressing by stopping the action then its not a disease because a disease will continue unless it is medically stopped or you die.....
and if alcoholism is a disease then what about drug addicts? No one is out there saying that they have a disease??? Nor do the addicts claim that they do...
I happen to be with the camp that says its NOT a disease it is merely a choice....now I am not saying that it's an easy choice for the alcoholic to stop but then they did put themselves there and they can take themselves out of the situation if they really really really wanted to. JMHO
Janit
1: They believe that it is a disease and has a genetic factor therefore they cant help what they do...
2: This camp feels that if you can stop the phycal damage from progressing by stopping the action then its not a disease because a disease will continue unless it is medically stopped or you die.....
and if alcoholism is a disease then what about drug addicts? No one is out there saying that they have a disease??? Nor do the addicts claim that they do...
I happen to be with the camp that says its NOT a disease it is merely a choice....now I am not saying that it's an easy choice for the alcoholic to stop but then they did put themselves there and they can take themselves out of the situation if they really really really wanted to. JMHO
Janit
Hope3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,155
Sunflower, this is a good discussion, no matter how many times it is brought fourth.
Mr, C you seem to have a way of bringing out the best in people.
You said this, Mr C: "I think it always is interesting when one challenges a sacred cow. Years ago everyone was agoraphobic and afraid to leave the house and today everyone is BI-polar."End Mr C:
Picture this, a woman in her 60's decides to take a walk in her night gown at 3:00am, no shoes, just feels the need to go. Only problem is it's 10 degrees, she doesn't even realize her feet are turning black. A couple hours later, she won't get into the ambulance. I finally convinve her I am her daughter and we need to go to the hospital. Is she weak? Is she Drunk?
No, however she is finally diagnosed properly with bi-polar, after living with this disease for her entire life. Early in her marriage she was misdiagnosed, put on the worse meds for bi-polar.
Now she is doing well with the right medication, and counseling. We do have to watch out for certain things, and adjustments need to be made. She has a chemical embalance a mental disorder, a chronic disease.
How is alcoholism the same or different? Who cares? Who should care?
It's defined as a disease by our medical journals.
According to the statistics, we should. One in four families are touched by alcoholism. By opinions similar to those in the past about mental disorders treatment of this disease (alcoholism and drug addiction) has been reduced, only 5% of alcoholics are getting the treatment they need, and adolenceses and addiction is on the rise. There are 43% fo people not getting treatment due to cost and their Ins turning down treatment.
Children and adults are being turned down or kicked out of treatment centers.
There being told by the Ins. Co. how long and what kind of treatment the patient should get. After having a professional evaluation by a trainned Psychiatrists. What is wrong with us, lets wake up.
A child gets kicked out of treatment, for the very disease they have, addiction. A diagnosed person with depression, cancer, asthma, diabeties can relapse and be continued treatment, the Ins. Co.'s don't say, well you haven't been on your diet, so we are going to turn down your Ins. Payment for Insulin. Or, well sorry the cancer came back, but we gave it a shot, you are on your own now. Or, how about a severely depressed person being treated, relasping back into those suicide thoughts. Okay, well we have to kick you out of treatment now. How absurd it would be to say this. Well, it's just as absurd to send and addict home for relapse.
Sorry, but we should be livid at the throw away approach we as a society is
letting our managed health care dictate to us.
We should have more compassion. Thats the bottom line. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
We need to get past the time of ignorance, and move on.
We all have a right to heal, and may we all do just that. I ask every one here to write your congressmen, tell them we need better treatment centers that treat people according to what the specialist are saying, not the Ins Co.
God bless us everyone, hope3, alias Sharon
Mr, C you seem to have a way of bringing out the best in people.
You said this, Mr C: "I think it always is interesting when one challenges a sacred cow. Years ago everyone was agoraphobic and afraid to leave the house and today everyone is BI-polar."End Mr C:
Picture this, a woman in her 60's decides to take a walk in her night gown at 3:00am, no shoes, just feels the need to go. Only problem is it's 10 degrees, she doesn't even realize her feet are turning black. A couple hours later, she won't get into the ambulance. I finally convinve her I am her daughter and we need to go to the hospital. Is she weak? Is she Drunk?
No, however she is finally diagnosed properly with bi-polar, after living with this disease for her entire life. Early in her marriage she was misdiagnosed, put on the worse meds for bi-polar.
Now she is doing well with the right medication, and counseling. We do have to watch out for certain things, and adjustments need to be made. She has a chemical embalance a mental disorder, a chronic disease.
How is alcoholism the same or different? Who cares? Who should care?
It's defined as a disease by our medical journals.
According to the statistics, we should. One in four families are touched by alcoholism. By opinions similar to those in the past about mental disorders treatment of this disease (alcoholism and drug addiction) has been reduced, only 5% of alcoholics are getting the treatment they need, and adolenceses and addiction is on the rise. There are 43% fo people not getting treatment due to cost and their Ins turning down treatment.
Children and adults are being turned down or kicked out of treatment centers.
There being told by the Ins. Co. how long and what kind of treatment the patient should get. After having a professional evaluation by a trainned Psychiatrists. What is wrong with us, lets wake up.
A child gets kicked out of treatment, for the very disease they have, addiction. A diagnosed person with depression, cancer, asthma, diabeties can relapse and be continued treatment, the Ins. Co.'s don't say, well you haven't been on your diet, so we are going to turn down your Ins. Payment for Insulin. Or, well sorry the cancer came back, but we gave it a shot, you are on your own now. Or, how about a severely depressed person being treated, relasping back into those suicide thoughts. Okay, well we have to kick you out of treatment now. How absurd it would be to say this. Well, it's just as absurd to send and addict home for relapse.
Sorry, but we should be livid at the throw away approach we as a society is
letting our managed health care dictate to us.
We should have more compassion. Thats the bottom line. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
We need to get past the time of ignorance, and move on.
We all have a right to heal, and may we all do just that. I ask every one here to write your congressmen, tell them we need better treatment centers that treat people according to what the specialist are saying, not the Ins Co.
God bless us everyone, hope3, alias Sharon
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
Originally Posted by Mr. Christian
All thought history we have been making simple excuse to explain behavior and never really taking full brunt for our own actions. Humans really like an excuse or a disorder to explain any action or bad behavior.
As I said before there are people though out the world from many races that do not drink because of religious beliefs and its funny that there are no alcoholics.
Ever notice the large amount of smokers on an AA meeting break? From one crutch to another.
Drinking, drugs, smoking to born again lifestyles to embracing AA, it’s all something to use to cope with.
The talk show mentality in this society has given us reasons for bad behavior for years, and we choose to accept this because it is an easy way out.
The not my fault attitude is so much easier then taking responsibility for ones self.
Yes I did say weak, because it’s true to a point. Even in Alanon we see many who stay for years and years to hold on to group and meetings instead of finally getting on and doing it alone.
As I said before there are people though out the world from many races that do not drink because of religious beliefs and its funny that there are no alcoholics.
Ever notice the large amount of smokers on an AA meeting break? From one crutch to another.
Drinking, drugs, smoking to born again lifestyles to embracing AA, it’s all something to use to cope with.
The talk show mentality in this society has given us reasons for bad behavior for years, and we choose to accept this because it is an easy way out.
The not my fault attitude is so much easier then taking responsibility for ones self.
Yes I did say weak, because it’s true to a point. Even in Alanon we see many who stay for years and years to hold on to group and meetings instead of finally getting on and doing it alone.
Mr C - first of all, please don't say that what you're saying is true. just because you think it is, doesn't make it so. you said alcoholics are weak to a point, and i disagree with that, as i disagree with every statement you've made above.
i personally am not using any excuse to explain bad behavior, and if i was a recovering alcoholic, i would find great offense in your statement. i'm a psychologist, i have spent time studying various disorders and diseases. there are many, many of us who have negative behaviors, but who are not diagnosed with a disorder. i'm not sure why you attack everyone else's character but your own. did you ever consider that maybe you are the one who is wrong? that you are the one who is projecting your unhealthy beliefs and opinions onto others, without having enough respect and compassion to consider the other side?
i personally do not like providing excuses or any labeling of disorders onto others, simply because, as a human being (as you stated) it's what i'm inclined to do. that's entirely judgmental of the entire human race, and i take offense to it.
with regards to the issue that there are other cultures who do not drink because of religious beliefs and who do not become alcoholics, proves to me that perhaps you haven't done enough reading on the topic. there are millions of people in the united states alone who are not alcoholics, and a great number of people who are. talking from a genetic predisposition standpoint, the alcoholics in the US, for example, bear children and have families who continue to be predisposed to the disease. i can guarantee you that any country or culture you speak of, who, as a whole, do not drink, have numerous alcoholics that we don't hear about. they live on the streets, they drink alone in their homes, they are not the people that make the headlines, because their country and culture refuse to admit that there is a problem that all human beings face - the problem of alcoholism.
you could ask any alcoholic on here (and frankly, you have no reason to judge any one of them, as neither you nor i could walk a day in their shoes), and i believe they would tell you that they did not "take the easy way out" as you stated, by admitting they were an alcoholic. i believe that this is a true disease, but for others, like janit, and the posts of others that i've read before - i can also see how, to an extent, you choose to put yourself in situations that encourage drinking. but is someone predisposed to it? yes, i believe they are.
am i predisposed to being an open minded person? yes. am i predisposed to being compassionate, neutral, and loving? yes. does that mean i need to assign a label to myself because i'm weak and because it's the easy way out? no it doesn't. there's far more to this argument than black and white - there are childhood traumas, family divorce, etc., that can also predispose someone to become an alcoholic, or have any kind of disease. smoking will give you lung cancer, eating mcdonald's cheeseburgers every day will give you heart disease. you may also be predisposed to it, but your actions and choices contribute to its' progression.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,949
I view addiction to harmful substances like liquor and drug as a brain disorder. Once brain functioning has been damaged and altered, decision making has been compromised as well. So I agree with the weak will argument in this sense: brain processes have been weakened to the point that to make a wise and sound “choice” is somewhat lacking. A damaged mind is going to have some problems with recognizing risky predicaments as they arise. Decisions based on faulty brain processes is going to be problematic no matter how much or how little information there is to process in order to make a good decision or choice. Periodical sobriety dose not mean sudden brain rejuvenation. Brain damage lingers even when the mood altering substance is no longer in the ones system. Some believe other wise. Admittedly, these changes in the brain can be minor. Sometimes altering part of ones personality, making them defiant, stubborn, self-destructive when that trait was minor or not present before.
Some people prefer to pass judgment and belittle the substance abuser. They use punishing words that describe their behavior in an effort to break them emotionally, morally and spiritually. This is done in an effort to “break” the habits of the addict.
Unfortunately this can break the addicts will to seek treatment first and exasperate the situation further. This is an age old strategy of shaming one into the light of reason.
Many addicts have very low self-esteem and are receptive to messages that fit their already defeated self image, further reinforcing their seemingly hopeless situation. They may come to believe that changing there way’s are not only impossible but useless to even try. Again this could be one way of helping the addict to the “bottom” they need in order to finally admit defeat and seek treatment. One possible problem with this is that further brain damage occurs and weakling the brain/mind beyond uncomplicated healing.
Thx Hope3
Peace
Zencat
Some people prefer to pass judgment and belittle the substance abuser. They use punishing words that describe their behavior in an effort to break them emotionally, morally and spiritually. This is done in an effort to “break” the habits of the addict.
Unfortunately this can break the addicts will to seek treatment first and exasperate the situation further. This is an age old strategy of shaming one into the light of reason.
Many addicts have very low self-esteem and are receptive to messages that fit their already defeated self image, further reinforcing their seemingly hopeless situation. They may come to believe that changing there way’s are not only impossible but useless to even try. Again this could be one way of helping the addict to the “bottom” they need in order to finally admit defeat and seek treatment. One possible problem with this is that further brain damage occurs and weakling the brain/mind beyond uncomplicated healing.
Originally Posted by hope3
Sorry, but we should be livid at the throw away approach we as a society is
letting our managed health care dictate to us.
We should have more compassion. Thats the bottom line. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
We need to get past the time of ignorance, and move on.
We all have a right to heal, and may we all do just that. I ask every one here to write your congressmen, tell them we need better treatment centers that treat people according to what the specialist are saying, not the Ins Co.
letting our managed health care dictate to us.
We should have more compassion. Thats the bottom line. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
We need to get past the time of ignorance, and move on.
We all have a right to heal, and may we all do just that. I ask every one here to write your congressmen, tell them we need better treatment centers that treat people according to what the specialist are saying, not the Ins Co.
Peace
Zencat
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