luvserenity

What is it? I just read AllTooSober's comment about her X leaving messages saying how he had heard something on the radio that reminded him of their happier times.

My ex did stuff like that ALL the time when we were in the midst of severe drama. I always took it as sincere. I'm starting to think I was totally NAIVE!!! They say things they don't really mean, to get us back, even though they don't really want us back?! I'm so confused by that!

Not sure why I always want to understand the why of their behavior...I really should care less and move on (and get to bed!)

WantsOut

Well, I think it's too simple to think of it like they're trying to "trick" us. It's not like that joke where you bend over to get the dollar on the sidewalk and they pull it away with a string and laugh.

I always liked the analogy of a drowning person. We are the safety net and when they feel us slipping away they flail about and do whatever it takes to stay above water. That means blurting out things about "our song" and "remember when".

luvserenity

Ahh right, like they don't even know they are doing it...So now I wonder, how do you tell the difference? I guess just experience, and not falling back into it at the first mention of "oh what did we do" or the first drunken "I love you so much" message! LOL. And don't get involved with another AA again!

WantsOut

For me it's not so much about their intentions as it is about how it makes me feel. If I feel like that talk is just manipulation, I call it out. You get to a certain point where you just know you're right, and maybe you don't care if you're wrong. You feel what you feel. Period.

prodigal

I had a psychologist who has been an addictions counselor for 30 years tell me that frequently, in their emotional pain, the addict's thinking - which is insane, by the way - goes something like this: "I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU ...DON'T LEAVE ME, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ME!!!" Crazy? Yes. But that is what someone with 30 year's clinical experience found is frequently the illogical "logic" that goes on inside their heads.

I get little blurbs here and there, kinda like throwin' old Rover a bone. I get a job, he'll go to AA. He's quite upset I've asked for a divorce (he informed me of this in his usual half-sentence, mutter, hardly intelligible lingo he speaks). I don't think they really want us back. I think they would rather have a body - any BODY - rather than having to tolerate being alone with themselves.

That's just my spin on this topic. After that last go-round where I did a total self-destruct meltdown, I let it go. What he does and who he does it with are none of my business. Frankly, I no longer want to know why or waste my time trying to figure it out. I've made myself crazy one time too many.

lilac

I think they are just throwing out the "codie fishing line" trying to hook us.....

I don't really know what they think, but they don't think like us, do they?
(rationally)......

AllTooSober

Lilac has nailed on the head exactly what I had meant by my ex's messages being manipulative. I felt like he was trying to hook me into softening my stance, making me miss him so that I once again choose to accept the unacceptable. Not gonna happen.

denny57

AH wrote in his journal: "I am an emotional manipulator." Guess I don't need to worry about whether he knows it or not! LOL

Neagrm

Ah! Well, they'll say anything, even unaware of their own motives, to keep us around to *enable* them as long as possible, won't they?

lilac

Yes, Neagrm, they will !

I am trying to pull the latest "hooK" from me right now

queenteree

Just a thought here: did anyone ever think that given the nature of the disease of alcoholism, that the alcoholic truly does care about the person, doesn't want them to leave, yet can't stop the alcohol abuse because of all the physical and chemical changes that have taken place in their bodies and in their brain. As I have said before, does anyone think that an alcoholic with severe liver disease or alcoholic neuropathy (or any number of ailments caused by alcohol) wants to be sick like that and die? They do have an inner struggle, and giving up that bottle may not be as easy for them as we non-alcoholics think. I'm not defending them by any means, these are just my thoughts.

QT

denny57

No, I think the nature of the disease is that they are unable to care. It doesn't make someone with the disease a bad person, I just believe it's a by-product of addiction.

Notoshure

QT
I'm kinda think you are right, maybe not all, but some I know I don't want to be critical of everyone who is an Ah I seen mine struggle with this for years I may be a Codi but I'm still a human that makes mistakes aren't we all thank God I don't have the decease But I'm no way near perfect .If you didn't like someone from a race or religion Do you condemn them all?

denny57

I don't think it's about condemnation. If a side effect of any other disease was that it made me not care, I'd accept that. It's a symptom of the disease. Alcohol is king and the king has taken away the ability to care.

LaTeeDa

People do what works for them. This thread brings to mind "we teach people how to treat us." Maybe some are not aware on a conscious level that they are manipulating, but they are aware of what works. I believe that is why many A's freak out and start doing even crazier things when the enabler starts to learn and detach. Because the things that have always worked no longer do. Manipulation only works if there are two participants.

Looking back, I was quite an accomplished manipulator as well. It was all I knew. Then I learned more effective ways of behaving.

JMO,
L

hope2bhappy

I think that this can be determined on a case-by-case basis and depends largely on the alcoholic. But I agree with you. I think they secretly hate themselves and yearn for and miss those good days, just as we do. Maybe it's easier for some of us to deal with our own bitterness and anger by de-humanizing the alcoholic.

queenteree

You see, I truly believe that my AH loves me and our family and would totally be lost without us. He doesn't go to bars and drink, he does not get violent and loves to be around us. He would do almost anything for us. But he also loves to drink. He wants his cake and eat it too. And as long as I let him have that, he's happy. Thanks to SR, I have learned to detach and am also happy (most days).

Notoshure

Thanks I was beginning to think I was on a bashing site I'm new and starting to understand thanks again I'm sorry

queenteree

Hope2,
I was trying to "thank you" for saying that, but it wouldn't let me. Very well said and I totally agree.
QT

denny57

I can honestly say I haven't met one person here or in the rooms of Al-Anon who has de-humanized the alcoholic in their life. I think people who don't understand the disease may do that. If I take care of myself I have no room for bitterness or anger.

I agree, LTD, I also manipulated. What I call the well-timed good deed.