Doubts that alcoholism is a disease
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Mr. Christian, does anyone as a child dream about becoming a drunk or drug addict? Why did the AMA label it a disease? Why does this illness tend to run in families? The DISEASE of addiction is progressive and chronic, much like other horrible diseases. However, thankfully because of education and understanding, your opinion is in the minority.
My Cape Is at The Cleaners
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 1,117
Really? Then how do you explain in different parts of the world where there is religious beliefs of now alcohol consummation, there are no alcoholics?
The AMA labeled it one so more would seek help and get help for it.
The AMA labeled it one so more would seek help and get help for it.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
As long as I struggle over whether it's a "disease" or whether it's _not_ a disease or what the definition of disease might be I am focusing my mind on _them_.
Focusing on _them_ is a symptom of _my_ disease of codie-ism.
It's not about the genetics of alcholism, it's not about the chemistry of alcohol metabolism, it's not about religious beliefs or the AMA or any thing that focuses on the alcoholic in my life.
My life did not go down the tubes because my ex-wife had a disease. Or not had a disease. My life went down the tubes because _I_ became obsessed with _her_.
Why _they_ do what they do is not going to solve _my_ problem. My problem is that _I_ do what I do. It is _me_ that stayed in a marriage that was long dead. It was _me_ that refused to see that our love had passed. It was _me_ that was in denial of my desperate need for love, any kind of love, at any price.
I don't _care_ why they do what they do, cuz if I were to magically know all the answers to all the questions about _them_ I still would not know the answer to _my_ addiction.
_they_ ruin their health, their jobs, their finances, their family in their pursuit of their obsession over booze/drugs/sex/etc. I ruined my health, lost my business, tons of money and shattered my family in the pursuit of my obsession over _her_. Just exactly who is the "sick" one here? Them or me? I did it stone cold sober, with _no_ chemicals in me at all.
I don't know if _I_ have a disease, but I sure have something very wrong with me, whatever you decide to call it. I think I'm going to focus my attention on "healing" me, for a change.
Mike
Focusing on _them_ is a symptom of _my_ disease of codie-ism.
It's not about the genetics of alcholism, it's not about the chemistry of alcohol metabolism, it's not about religious beliefs or the AMA or any thing that focuses on the alcoholic in my life.
My life did not go down the tubes because my ex-wife had a disease. Or not had a disease. My life went down the tubes because _I_ became obsessed with _her_.
Why _they_ do what they do is not going to solve _my_ problem. My problem is that _I_ do what I do. It is _me_ that stayed in a marriage that was long dead. It was _me_ that refused to see that our love had passed. It was _me_ that was in denial of my desperate need for love, any kind of love, at any price.
I don't _care_ why they do what they do, cuz if I were to magically know all the answers to all the questions about _them_ I still would not know the answer to _my_ addiction.
_they_ ruin their health, their jobs, their finances, their family in their pursuit of their obsession over booze/drugs/sex/etc. I ruined my health, lost my business, tons of money and shattered my family in the pursuit of my obsession over _her_. Just exactly who is the "sick" one here? Them or me? I did it stone cold sober, with _no_ chemicals in me at all.
I don't know if _I_ have a disease, but I sure have something very wrong with me, whatever you decide to call it. I think I'm going to focus my attention on "healing" me, for a change.
Mike
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
for me trying to re-define the alcoholism disease label, has turned out to rooted in anger, and the need to control....just have to fight those windmills.
as long as i stayed into the mode of trying to convince all that a disease should not cause someone to abuse, lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, hurt loved ones, blow all the money, become homeless, loose their jobs, etc.......then i am not having to focus on my own struggles of trying to let him go.
if i think of it as a disease, i want to nurse-maid him. if i think of it as a character defect, i want to wrap him in duct tape and beat him, if i think of it as an addiction, i want to do an intervention and save his life by taking away the alcohol......it just goes on and on.
what has worked for my own mindset is to think of alcoholism as a truly medical disease based upon the physiology of the chemical in the body and brain. but i have to couple that idea with the reality that many people out there are dealing with much more than alcoholism. i think many are alcoholics in addition to having many other mental issue problems. and thus the saying from the bb works to a tee.....some are sicker than others.
when i think of saying that it is a lack of will power, i think of my part in this co-dependancy of mine......i can see i have been co-dependant since childhood.....it has become a life survival tool that i learned very early on.....it hasn't worked for me into adulthood, so trying to change that in myself is very difficult. it is not because i lack willpower......it is because the program was ingrained into me at a very young age.....just as the alcoholics program was probably ingrained into their tender brains at a young age...
we are complicated creatures.
i think alot of our views on the description of alcoholism depends opon our own level of personal pain being felt at any given time.
as long as i stayed into the mode of trying to convince all that a disease should not cause someone to abuse, lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, hurt loved ones, blow all the money, become homeless, loose their jobs, etc.......then i am not having to focus on my own struggles of trying to let him go.
if i think of it as a disease, i want to nurse-maid him. if i think of it as a character defect, i want to wrap him in duct tape and beat him, if i think of it as an addiction, i want to do an intervention and save his life by taking away the alcohol......it just goes on and on.
what has worked for my own mindset is to think of alcoholism as a truly medical disease based upon the physiology of the chemical in the body and brain. but i have to couple that idea with the reality that many people out there are dealing with much more than alcoholism. i think many are alcoholics in addition to having many other mental issue problems. and thus the saying from the bb works to a tee.....some are sicker than others.
when i think of saying that it is a lack of will power, i think of my part in this co-dependancy of mine......i can see i have been co-dependant since childhood.....it has become a life survival tool that i learned very early on.....it hasn't worked for me into adulthood, so trying to change that in myself is very difficult. it is not because i lack willpower......it is because the program was ingrained into me at a very young age.....just as the alcoholics program was probably ingrained into their tender brains at a young age...
we are complicated creatures.
i think alot of our views on the description of alcoholism depends opon our own level of personal pain being felt at any given time.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Nuudawn 
It's all semantics really. Im sorry for your loss luvmyfam...alcoholism...like any addiction is when you somehow lose your ability to choose. In the end, every morning I chose to not drink...yet somehow I wound up at the liquor store buying wine every night. It becomes a compulsion...you lose your strength to choose.
I would shed no less tears for someone who died of alcohol induced cirohssis of the liver then I would a person with cancer (whether they smoked or not). Addiction is borne of pain. Many addicts/alcholics suffered unspeakable crimes against them in childhood...physical and sexual abuse etc.
One should walk a mile...before comparing the worthiness of souls.
I would shed no less tears for someone who died of alcohol induced cirohssis of the liver then I would a person with cancer (whether they smoked or not). Addiction is borne of pain. Many addicts/alcholics suffered unspeakable crimes against them in childhood...physical and sexual abuse etc.
One should walk a mile...before comparing the worthiness of souls.
I did not say I would shed less tears. But I will never believe alcoholism is a disease.
Maybe you shouldn't tell me that I should walk a mile when you have no idea how many miles I have walked.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Originally Posted by luvmyfam
I did not say I would shed less tears. But I will never believe alcoholism is a disease.
Maybe you shouldn't tell me that I should walk a mile when you have no idea how many miles I have walked.
Maybe you shouldn't tell me that I should walk a mile when you have no idea how many miles I have walked.
True enough LuvmyFam. I just sensed from your post that your perspective was one borne of pain and anger rather than love and compassion. Never a fun place to be....been there...still go there sometimes.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake Luzerne
Posts: 1,786
You're awesome Nuudawn, I appreciate your honesty and your persepctive. Thanks for sharing, it's obvious you work hard at your recovery. Truth be told, I think alcoholics and codependents have a history revealed by the role in coping they take as adults.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by luvmyfam
I did not say I would shed less tears. But I will never believe alcoholism is a disease.
Maybe you shouldn't tell me that I should walk a mile when you have no idea how many miles I have walked.
Maybe you shouldn't tell me that I should walk a mile when you have no idea how many miles I have walked.
Comparative misery never got me anywhere.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the streets have no name
Posts: 1,078
pet scan has shown neurobiologic changes in the brains of alcoholics. delusion, denial, euphoric recall, blackouts, rationalization, intellectualization, alcohol induced cardiomyopathy, liver, and pancreatic maladies are among the mechanisms/pathologies in play in chemical addiction, and most definitely fit psychiatric/physical disease definitions.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
"Under the Influence" explains best for me what is likely the physical dynamic at work,that leads to the other problems. JMHO
Starting with a simple metabolic abnormality that is genetically-carried....
As usual; take what you want and leave the rest.
Starting with a simple metabolic abnormality that is genetically-carried....
As usual; take what you want and leave the rest.
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
Excerpts from "Under the Influence" which talk about some of the physical parts of alcoholism:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...influence.html
The part about alcoholism that *I* relate to diabetes and heart disease are:
the "genetic predisposition" part - I was never going to be able to drink "socially" no matter how hard or long I tried. There was no way MY body can process alcohol that way.
the behavior factor - If I have heart disease and continue to smoke, drink, eat high cholesteral foods and gain weight... I will likely die. If I have diabetes and continue to eat high-sugar foods I will likely die (or if I allow my self to go the OTHER way and drive - which happens - I may take someone out with me).
So it is a genetic condition that is passed down through famililes. It has a biological and social (behavior) elements. Those things are easy to "grasp". The hard part, for me and others I think, is the "psychological" part.... Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, Craving... and other parts I hear in meetings all the time. The "hole in the middle", the feeling "not part of" the "more, more, more is never enough".
For those of us who go to lots of meetings, I hear SOOOO many common elements - with such a VARIETY of folks! It seems difficult to believe we would all manifest the same things with our incredibly diverse backgrounds.
Normies have a consequence and put the drink down. For them, it is easy. I have met lots and lots and lots of alcoholics and talked to them. I've seldom met one who put LESS effort into quitting than the normies I know. The ones I know have tried FAR, FAR, FAR harder to quit drinking... and could not.
There is something different between alcoholics and normies. If "Just put down the drink, stupid" worked, we would not have self-help programs like AA (and others).
If calling it a disease offends... why not call it a condition?
I've loved, and been hurt (such an understated word) by the condition of alcoholism. My solace came from Alanon meetings.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...influence.html
The part about alcoholism that *I* relate to diabetes and heart disease are:
the "genetic predisposition" part - I was never going to be able to drink "socially" no matter how hard or long I tried. There was no way MY body can process alcohol that way.
the behavior factor - If I have heart disease and continue to smoke, drink, eat high cholesteral foods and gain weight... I will likely die. If I have diabetes and continue to eat high-sugar foods I will likely die (or if I allow my self to go the OTHER way and drive - which happens - I may take someone out with me).
So it is a genetic condition that is passed down through famililes. It has a biological and social (behavior) elements. Those things are easy to "grasp". The hard part, for me and others I think, is the "psychological" part.... Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, Craving... and other parts I hear in meetings all the time. The "hole in the middle", the feeling "not part of" the "more, more, more is never enough".
For those of us who go to lots of meetings, I hear SOOOO many common elements - with such a VARIETY of folks! It seems difficult to believe we would all manifest the same things with our incredibly diverse backgrounds.
Normies have a consequence and put the drink down. For them, it is easy. I have met lots and lots and lots of alcoholics and talked to them. I've seldom met one who put LESS effort into quitting than the normies I know. The ones I know have tried FAR, FAR, FAR harder to quit drinking... and could not.
There is something different between alcoholics and normies. If "Just put down the drink, stupid" worked, we would not have self-help programs like AA (and others).
If calling it a disease offends... why not call it a condition?
I've loved, and been hurt (such an understated word) by the condition of alcoholism. My solace came from Alanon meetings.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
calling something a disease evokes feelings of compassion, sympathy, and a geniune desire to offer support and help to that person.
i had a hard time wrapping my mind around a condition or addiction that was called a disease....meaning alcoholism....because this disease caused some horrific behaviors from my husband.....violence, abuse, absolutely ugly, ugly behaviors, disgusting behaviors, totally shunning family, responsibilities, stealing, lying, cheating.
i think, for some, (like it was for me) calling alcoholism a disease kinda riles us up.....how could a disease make someone show their arses so badly??...how could a disease cause someone to say such filthy things to people they love???? how could a disease cause someone to physically harm someone they love??? how could a disease cause someone to constantly spew the most hateful things from their mouths???? how could a disease make someone just beat someone else down so severly????? how could a disease make someone sleep around???
calling it a disease is capable of causing resentments.....because if their symtoms of such mistreatment of others is a symptom.....then the victims of their symptoms are supposed to understand that "they didn't mean it".
it's like it almost invalidates the victims of their syptoms, because we are just supposed to understand it's just the disease speaking.
am i on to something here mr c.....are these some of the feelings you may be having???
there have been so many times i have just wanted to scream....oh pullleaaseee!!!!! you're not diseased.....yer just a nasty ********!!
in the end, it doesn't matter to me anymore. personally, i think my xh has many more issues than alcoholism. i also think that if alcoholism is a disease, then stopping should be the simplest thing. you stop, go through detox, and just never drink again. it's the mind that is all messed up.....jmho.
what did people blame these behaviors on long before there was mass produced alcohol? or even before alcohol. or did these behaviors just not exist? i bet people that displayed these behaviors didn't make it long in thier tribes, or clans, or settlements, or caves.
i had a hard time wrapping my mind around a condition or addiction that was called a disease....meaning alcoholism....because this disease caused some horrific behaviors from my husband.....violence, abuse, absolutely ugly, ugly behaviors, disgusting behaviors, totally shunning family, responsibilities, stealing, lying, cheating.
i think, for some, (like it was for me) calling alcoholism a disease kinda riles us up.....how could a disease make someone show their arses so badly??...how could a disease cause someone to say such filthy things to people they love???? how could a disease cause someone to physically harm someone they love??? how could a disease cause someone to constantly spew the most hateful things from their mouths???? how could a disease make someone just beat someone else down so severly????? how could a disease make someone sleep around???
calling it a disease is capable of causing resentments.....because if their symtoms of such mistreatment of others is a symptom.....then the victims of their symptoms are supposed to understand that "they didn't mean it".
it's like it almost invalidates the victims of their syptoms, because we are just supposed to understand it's just the disease speaking.
am i on to something here mr c.....are these some of the feelings you may be having???
there have been so many times i have just wanted to scream....oh pullleaaseee!!!!! you're not diseased.....yer just a nasty ********!!
in the end, it doesn't matter to me anymore. personally, i think my xh has many more issues than alcoholism. i also think that if alcoholism is a disease, then stopping should be the simplest thing. you stop, go through detox, and just never drink again. it's the mind that is all messed up.....jmho.
what did people blame these behaviors on long before there was mass produced alcohol? or even before alcohol. or did these behaviors just not exist? i bet people that displayed these behaviors didn't make it long in thier tribes, or clans, or settlements, or caves.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
I think it matters to me if it is a disease/condition because that means it really wasn't about me or that he never loved me /the kids enough to stop (because if it was only about trying,that's what it would mean and that after 30yrs he just turned into a jerk).
For the Alcoholic I think it is most important to know that it is NOT in their power to drink without problems and never will be.
For the Alcoholic I think it is most important to know that it is NOT in their power to drink without problems and never will be.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
i'm still not conveying what i mean. i understand, and can accept the reaction to alcohol is different in some people. just as food can react different in people....for example...seafood allergies....peanut allergies....etc.
i understand that people can become addicted to alcohol.
i understand that addiction to alcohol becomes progressive if left untreated.
i can understand all that.
what i don't understand is the vile, nasty, hurtful, illegal behaviors they develop along the way. and to just say.....it's the disease....well, that's hard for me to swallow.
and for a moment, i will play the devils advocate.....millions of marriages end in divorce without the disadvantage of one or both partners being alcoholics. many people fall out of love, or don't love their families enough to stop the cheating, or what ever they are doing to add to the demise of the marriage.
which means, it is still about them, and their characters. many, many women, and men are setting out there after a divorce of over 30 years because one or the other went through a mid-life crisis, met someone else more refreshing, .......these people are sitting there, going wtf??? i was a good spouse, i was a good provider, i was a good person....and they still left. and these situations occur all the time....without alcohol being a factor.
i'm just in a real chitty mood today with alcoholics behaviors.....not that a person is an alcoholic,,,,,but their horrible behaviors that hurt so many people.
i just think maybe these people are just plain arseholes to begin with. add alcohol, and disaster. they get tired of being arseholes so they sober up and straighten up their hearts. those are the success stories. the dyed in the wool arseholes just keep on doing what they do...
oh, dang, people, i'm sorry. i'm so sick of the sugar coating on the alcoholic. i think i need to take a break from the boards for a couple of days.
i love ya all.
jeri
i understand that people can become addicted to alcohol.
i understand that addiction to alcohol becomes progressive if left untreated.
i can understand all that.
what i don't understand is the vile, nasty, hurtful, illegal behaviors they develop along the way. and to just say.....it's the disease....well, that's hard for me to swallow.
and for a moment, i will play the devils advocate.....millions of marriages end in divorce without the disadvantage of one or both partners being alcoholics. many people fall out of love, or don't love their families enough to stop the cheating, or what ever they are doing to add to the demise of the marriage.
which means, it is still about them, and their characters. many, many women, and men are setting out there after a divorce of over 30 years because one or the other went through a mid-life crisis, met someone else more refreshing, .......these people are sitting there, going wtf??? i was a good spouse, i was a good provider, i was a good person....and they still left. and these situations occur all the time....without alcohol being a factor.
i'm just in a real chitty mood today with alcoholics behaviors.....not that a person is an alcoholic,,,,,but their horrible behaviors that hurt so many people.
i just think maybe these people are just plain arseholes to begin with. add alcohol, and disaster. they get tired of being arseholes so they sober up and straighten up their hearts. those are the success stories. the dyed in the wool arseholes just keep on doing what they do...
oh, dang, people, i'm sorry. i'm so sick of the sugar coating on the alcoholic. i think i need to take a break from the boards for a couple of days.
i love ya all.
jeri
My Cape Is at The Cleaners
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Metropolis
Posts: 1,117
We are human and with that we have weaknesses. There are so many pleasure in this world and any of them , that’s right any of them in access is not good.
Over due any thing, drinking, drugs, smoking, gambling, sex or all of them will bring a downfall.
Some work real good with the others. People loose sight of morals , self control and just plan don’t care.
We also live in a world where we have new medical terms and excuses every day for lack of control and bad behavior.
Not all will agree on this issue and in fact will pick up a train of thought that makes them feel better.
It’s not real important in the end though, we get past it and just hope we are strong enough our selves not to HIDE in a bottle.
Over due any thing, drinking, drugs, smoking, gambling, sex or all of them will bring a downfall.
Some work real good with the others. People loose sight of morals , self control and just plan don’t care.
We also live in a world where we have new medical terms and excuses every day for lack of control and bad behavior.
Not all will agree on this issue and in fact will pick up a train of thought that makes them feel better.
It’s not real important in the end though, we get past it and just hope we are strong enough our selves not to HIDE in a bottle.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
My understanding is that the chemical changes cause a brain damage...ie alcohol induced insanity-of-sorts.....it changes the way the brain operates. Just a someone with postpartum depression can act in ways that are atypical, biochemical depression,etc.......neurotransmitters are effected,etc. Their balance and function are injured or destroyed. There is also visible damage to the frontal lobes....the place where judgement and emotions,etc are.
My son has electrical problems with his heart....when that system gets disrupted...he gets symptoms. You can not see anything except the problems when it acts up. Thoughts and our interputations of them are relayed by chemicals. It made more sense to me when I thought of it in that light.
Anyone whose has had PMS knows that biochemical changes can change your normal thought,actions and reactions to things....
JMO
My son has electrical problems with his heart....when that system gets disrupted...he gets symptoms. You can not see anything except the problems when it acts up. Thoughts and our interputations of them are relayed by chemicals. It made more sense to me when I thought of it in that light.
Anyone whose has had PMS knows that biochemical changes can change your normal thought,actions and reactions to things....
JMO
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: the west coast
Posts: 21
I have a question about how the medical community handles alcoholism/drug addiction as a disease. My mother binge drinks and rarely seeks treatment until she is in a medical emergency. Miraculously she has made it out each time, but that's never a sure thing. She's currently in the worst state I've seen her in (can barely breathe but won't go to the doctor) so I'm not overly confident this time.
To try to avoid this sort of drama, many, many times my dad, brother, and I have taken her into the ER when she was obviously very sick, hadn't eaten for days, had fallen and gotten cuts or bruises, possible broken bones, etc. (I realize this isn't our responsibility, but it's hard to just sit back and watch someone destroy themselves). Almost all of those times, she has refused to be treated for anything, and ended up walking out.
Last time this happened, she initially agreed to go into detox, but because she was seen as a low priority, the doctor hadn't showed up after an hour and she had changed her mind and walked out with the nurse saying "well, if she doesn't want treatment, we can't force her...". Why can't they move things along a little faster, considering the nature of the problem?
My question is, if this is a disease, why is it treated this way by medical professionals? If one of the symptoms of the disease is that it takes away the ability of the person to make rational choices for themselves, why isn't that taken into consideration? If a person with dementia was brought into the ER with broken bones and said they didn't need any help, I doubt the doctor would just throw up his hands and say "oh well, nothing we can do then".
Sorry for the long post, I get a little fired up about this.
To try to avoid this sort of drama, many, many times my dad, brother, and I have taken her into the ER when she was obviously very sick, hadn't eaten for days, had fallen and gotten cuts or bruises, possible broken bones, etc. (I realize this isn't our responsibility, but it's hard to just sit back and watch someone destroy themselves). Almost all of those times, she has refused to be treated for anything, and ended up walking out.
Last time this happened, she initially agreed to go into detox, but because she was seen as a low priority, the doctor hadn't showed up after an hour and she had changed her mind and walked out with the nurse saying "well, if she doesn't want treatment, we can't force her...". Why can't they move things along a little faster, considering the nature of the problem?
My question is, if this is a disease, why is it treated this way by medical professionals? If one of the symptoms of the disease is that it takes away the ability of the person to make rational choices for themselves, why isn't that taken into consideration? If a person with dementia was brought into the ER with broken bones and said they didn't need any help, I doubt the doctor would just throw up his hands and say "oh well, nothing we can do then".
Sorry for the long post, I get a little fired up about this.
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