FormerDoormat

"Even if he does change...either way...I want my name back...I want:

to go out dancing again
to go to museums and the city with friends on weekends.
to invite friends over for dinner!
to stay late at work if I need or want to
to watch t.v. without flipping the channel every 5 seconds
to enjoy a glass of wine the way I used to!
to relax and not worry anymore about how he is doing every second"

Seems to me that the only person stopping you from enjoying all these things is you. Having an alcoholic in your home doesn't mean you can't enjoy these things. He's certainly not stopping you--you are. You CAN do all of these things when you stop worrying about what he's doing or might be doing. So let go and let God and get out there and enjoy your life!

embraced2000

thank you mike...luv ya too

ok, answer me this mike. i have come to believe that alcoholism is a disease because the ama says so...and i know they are much smarter than me. i can accept that. but i can't accept that the abusiveness and the other traits we all know about, are symptoms of this disease. i have really struggled with this....i have known kind, gentle alcoholics....now, they couldn't take care of a caterpillar in a coffee can, but they were kind and i know of one in particular that absolutely everyone loved.

i have come to convince myself that these behaviors are character traits that are magnified by the disease of alcoholism. i need to think that a-holes have a totally different problem than alcoholics.

but i have heard in open aa meetings the stories that would almost stop your heart....no pun intended.....and these people are now just a-ok.

so, just because it gets my panties in a wad, i just stay away from it all. because it really doesn't matter, as long as i am ok and happy.

and i have totally forgotten what my question was.

oh, i remember now......do you have a good recipe for salsa? lolololo

kindredSpiritGr

My Ah compares his drinking with my reading books. I love books and i go to the bookstore once a week and i read alot. He says he will stop drinking when i stop reading books. I dont know if he doesnt see the difference or if hes just being obtuse, or bullheaded, but it makes me nuts when he says that. I dont even know how to begin to argue with something so illogical.

embraced2000

i think there is something else we need to remember...on this forum, we are dealing with alcoholics and addicts that just are not ready, or cannot take the steps to get sober and clean.

there are many, many out there that have been able to stop, get it together and prosper. we don't hear of those on this forum, because, well....they are doing ok.

so all of us here are really struggling with the hard cases. just a thought.

newenglandgirl

I remember when I first started "waking up" and realizing that my AH wasn't just being "grumpy", or "stressed-out", or "forgetful", etc etc...all of a sudden (and God knows why it took me so darn long to wake up) I realized that my husband was losing his friggin' mind. I stopped listening to the things he said as if he were a normal person. I started paying attention to how crazy he had become. It is a very sad thing. And I felt all of sudden very alone and scared. It's no fun being in an isolated place with a madman!

embraced2000

i also believe that an alcoholic feels tremendous shame, regrets, and hopelessness with their addiction, which compounds the task of restructuring their lives. i try to imagine what that would be like.



ewwwwwww......i gotta quit thinking all oooshy-gooshy or i'll be going on a mission impossible. he just called again.

BigGirlPanties

Jeri, my father had diabetes that he took insulin for via injection daily. MOst days were good, tho, some days when blood sugar level would rise or fall, so would his mood and behvior. He could stike out angrily, or bahvior very upbeat and jolly. His moods were extreme, just like the alcoholic.

It could also make him beligerent, unstable, under able to speak and to be understood, irrational..sometimes walking into closets to sleep, falling down etc...all just like the alcoholic. Luckily for you, it sounds like you have not had diabetes affect you in this way, however, for many, it has.

Thats why the comparisions make sense to me.

BigGirlPanties

and maybe not.

dogandbooklover

As one avid reader to another, here is what I think about this: He's being an as@. There really is no other explanation for comparing the two.

DesertEyes

You are absolutely right. Those are _not_ symptoms of the disease of addiction.

There is a saying in the fellowship of AA that if you sober up a drunken car thief what you end up with is a sober car thief.

The _disease_ of alcoholism is _only_ about the chemical cravings that are caused by the presence of alcohol in the body. Once an alcoholic takes the first drink he/she is unable to stop drinking. 'course, once they are drunk they are also unable to drive, speak, think or most anything else. The disease also causes "tolerance", which means it takes more and more booze to get less and less effect.

The irresponsible behavior is _not_ excused by the disease. Some drunks may try and get away with such an excuse, but that doesn't make it true.

In addition to being an alcoholice I _love_ adrenalin. Fast cars, fast women, and anything dangerous will "rock my world". Adrenalin addiction is _not_ a AMA-certified disease, and has nothing to do with alcoholism. When I was young and drunk I pursued adrenalin without regard for safety or sanity. Being drunk made it _easier_ to behave in unsafe manners. Having friends that enabled me made it easier still.

When I sobered up I found that AA did a wonderful job of helping me stay sober, but it didn't do didly squat about my "need for speed". All my "character defects" that I had _before_ my drinking career were still there when I quite drinking. _I_ had not changed, I just wasn't drinking anymore. The booze didn't cause my "character defects", so removing the booze didn't remove the defects.

I have since worked on my character defects, and have found safe and healthy outlets for my "need for speed". Sobriety _allowed_ me to do that, but it was still me that had to make the effort to change.

I'm single and living in Vegas, baby. I go _out_ for salsa Next time you're out here give a holler, I know the _best_ places for mexican, greek and sushi.

Mike

dayxday

I kept reading this thread trying to think how to put into words how I felt about T being sober but not really changing his behaviors.

Now I don't have to - you have said it much better than I ever could have.

Thank you.

denny57

If you believe that alcoholism causes changes to the frontal lobe, as I do, then I have no problem understanding why some addicts behave the way they do. Surprisingly, proportionately in the scheme of things, so very little is known about the brain. While we're learning more and more every day, I honestly believe these will be seen as the dark ages of understanding addiction.

blessed2be

I struggle with the whole "it is a disease" thing too. The reason being is that my father was a negative, physically, emotionally (and to some in the family...thankfully not me...) and sexually abusive man. Before alcohol entered his life he was all of these things. The alcohol just magnified the problem. I know for a fact that he abused his sisters growing up and that was before alcohol entered his life. He also is an ACOA, but I will never use that to excuse his behavior. I am also an ACOA... I happen to be a very spiritual, positive, loving, affectionate person who would never treat my children badly. I don't abuse alcohol or drugs. I still have other obsessive behaviors that I am working on, but more importantly, I have taken responsibility for my behaviors. I have choices to make and know that I am the only one responsible for my actions.

I have a real hard time when I hear that my dad beat me because of the "disease" when I know darn well he would have done it had he never touched alcohol. I also won't excuse his behavior because it was "all he knew" growing up...because if I lived on "all I knew", I would be so far off from the person I am now. I made choices to break the mold of behavior running rampant in both sides of my family. I gave my life over to my HP many many years ago.

Thanks for all of your helpful posts! I am learning to live life for me and my family and not obsess about why I had to go through what I did in the past. All I know is that it happened and it made me stronger. I guess I grew up knowing "what not to do".

mallowcup

We rely on the advice of experts. I sometimes wonder who has observed the alcoholic more closely than us? I don't know if it is mental or physical or both. In my observations and experiences, I think "choice to drink or not" is inaccurate. I think the foundation of treatment should be based on the fact that if they can get a drink in any way what so ever, they will. People talk to an acoholic about a normal life. I think alcohol is what makes them feel normal. My husband does not have the ability to not drink, it's like his mind and his body need alcohol. It's killing him. It is an addiction. I don't see it as a disease with him. Here's why I conclude that. He does not have the ability or the will power to quit on his own. He needs to be taken to a facility, medicated through detox and then saturated with medication and therapy. Thus, the plan of care more focused on someone who can not make the best decisions for himself. The has tried to quit and failed, with that failure, suicide attempts. I have worked with several mental health considerations along the way. It has always intregued me that people with depression do well if they take their medication. Same with bipolar. The number one determining factor in their success is that they take their medication. They can not be entrusted to do that. They start feeling better and figure they don't need the med anymore. They get depressed and don't connect the depresssion with not taking their med. I would be very optimistic if my husbands alcoholism was treated as an addiction instead of a disease. Over and over we hear, he has to want to quit. He doens't want to quit. It makes him sick, it doesn't feel normal. When someone is addicted to heroin the plan of care is very different. The choices are not left to them. The choices are made for them. Alcoholics may feel some sense of normal AFTER detox and some couceling. I'm just curious if anyone else thinks that at a certain point an alcoholic should be treated like an addict? Do you find the shrtcomings of the "disease" approach a point of failure? I just find it curious that it hasn't ocurred to someone that if an alcholic has detoxed nine times, maybe it doenst' work.

angelonmyshould

When my AH first got sober he started eating lots of candy, cookies, cake, etc. When I asked why he was now doing this when he never would do this when he was drinking I was told that alcohol has sugar and that's what his body craves (maybe thats one reason compared to diabetes).

Now his addiction is anything with sugar and pokerstars.net. His addictions have changed. But, I don't get involved with these addictions. Why? Because I have come to realize that it is his choice to do what he wants as it is my choice to react.

Also, I heard at an open AA meeting one person say that "I am allergic to alcohol. I can't help what it did to me." Basically, he was saying that it wasn't a disease for him but an allergy.

embraced2000

so mallow, help me out on this one. my xh has had hundreds (and that is no exageration) of detoxes. many, many rehabs after detoxes. has turned into a big book thumper, and been on many numerous behavioral meds. none of them has worked for him. so what is the missing link, based on your theory?

i have read your posts like this before and found them very interesting, but i'm not sure i understand it all. please help me understand.....i want to understand....not as a measure of rescue for him....but just so that i will have another point of view to ponder.

another thought....my xh was a binge drinker. when he was drinking, he was in full blown addiction and would have drank cough syrup if he ran out of booze. i understand that part of the addiction. so what factors play into this way of drinking....for instance, he would go out on a binge for 2-3 months, then sober for just about as long....but the whole time he was sober, he was intolerable.

i always felt that he had more than alcoholism going on....perhaps mental problems that needed addressed. i often wondered if drinking was the symptom of his mental problems, instead of the other way around.

but i've had so many recovering alcoholics just shake their heads at my ideas and say...no, no, no.....i was the same way and it all went away when i got sober and spiritual.

Seeking Wisdom

I, too feel it is more of a mental illness that anything else. In my husband, it was an overwhelming, self destructive, all consuming obsession .. that was completely irrational ... but the compulsion to drink was so incredibly powerful, especially as he got older, that it defined his every thought and decision.

For some alcoholics, their own determined free will can overpower the desire to drink -but for my husband his addiction became too strong. I came to terms with the fact his desire to drink was more powerful than any other person or thing on this earth ... and all we could do was stand back helplessly and watch him self destruct ...until he finally died from this "disease". Alcoholism is truly a tragic illness. For every alcoholic, there are many people close to them that are forever damaged from the effects. All we can do is protect ourselves as much as possible from being another tragic victim because we got too close and too involved with this powerful addiction.

embraced2000

when i used to drink, alcohol loosened up my inhibitions big time. i thought i was prettier, sexier, smarter, funnier than i could ever be in real life. with emphasis on sexier. i went three years one time that i was unable to have sex without being bombed. the first time i had sex sober, i was terrified.

it all had to do with self-esteem, for me. i would do and say all sorts of things drunk, that i would have never done while sober.

but i was never abusive or mean....i just was promiscuous. and i never raged against anyone. and one day, i just decided drinking was too much work. i didn't like the taste, i hated the bar scene, and more importantly, i was very worried about not being able to have intimate contact without being drunk.

so i just stopped drinking and never had any desire to ever drink again. i don't think about it, it doesn't bother me. i enjoy wine with a meal about once a year. that;'s bout it for my drinking days.

mallowcup

I guess that best explains it, I feel it is a mental illness. No one in their right mind wants to pee their pants, drool, lose their memory, stink, be laughed at etc. Maybe I'm feeling like the system lets them down. I know there were times when my husband needed to be hauled away to a mental health unit.I feel like the gaps in the plan are the gaps they fall into. I do not think the present plan works. For the umpteenth time he has trashed the house, crashed the car, and they come an haul him off to jail. Why aren't they hauling him over to the mental health unit. Does anyone here know a single alcoholic that wants to be an alcoholic? In your heart of hearts, if they could quit they would. If they can not beat it, they have to justify it. My husband does not want to be an alcoholic, he can not quit. His body and mind are fixed on alcohol. I'm not saying that if he was taken to the hospital, medicated, against his will, he woudn't come to a point where he could be sober. He can not do this on his own. They say he should be able to and he can not, in my mind, this becomes a mental illness with a physical addiction to validate it.Too much is left to a will power that does not exist.

embraced2000

i see....god, this is just so difficult. no, i truly don't believe that anyone would choose this sort of hell to live as an alcoholic. i know my xh did not want to be one....he just didn't know how NOT to be one. like i said, i always thought there was just MORE to it all. i don't know what, just more.