Struggling with Normalcy
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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i think all people walk in the journey of life and accumulate life experiences. at any give moment, multitudes of these people are trying to become more aware of any particular issue of their concern, and working on improving their connection to lifes circumstances and events, what ever that may be.
i think the issue is more one of sensitivity and empathy.....the alcoholic in recovery, if they get it, are glorious to behold. but then, so is the reformed criminal, or the person who has overcome physical obstacles to enjoy a full life, or the person who has discovered their spirituality for the first time and basks in it's glow, or the person who has lived through illnesses with a second chance at life.....
maybe you are just attracted to someone who has soul, spirituality, wisdom, strength, gentleness, kindness.......maybe alcoholism has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.
as far as slipping back into your old ways of thinking and reacting, i tend to think that we have more of a personality trait of caregiving, than a disease of codependancy.
i tend to believe that living in alcoholism turned our personality traits of
caregiving into raging, unhealthy codependancy, that made us very sick.
once we knew better, we did better. and i don't think that many of us would go back there again.......imo
are you worried about liking the alcoholic more?? i think so. you know how fragile recovery for the alcoholic is and you don't want to re-visit it.
again...jmho.....i know i would be very cautious about being involved with another alcoholic....it is just too painful.
i think the issue is more one of sensitivity and empathy.....the alcoholic in recovery, if they get it, are glorious to behold. but then, so is the reformed criminal, or the person who has overcome physical obstacles to enjoy a full life, or the person who has discovered their spirituality for the first time and basks in it's glow, or the person who has lived through illnesses with a second chance at life.....
maybe you are just attracted to someone who has soul, spirituality, wisdom, strength, gentleness, kindness.......maybe alcoholism has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.
as far as slipping back into your old ways of thinking and reacting, i tend to think that we have more of a personality trait of caregiving, than a disease of codependancy.
i tend to believe that living in alcoholism turned our personality traits of
caregiving into raging, unhealthy codependancy, that made us very sick.
once we knew better, we did better. and i don't think that many of us would go back there again.......imo
are you worried about liking the alcoholic more?? i think so. you know how fragile recovery for the alcoholic is and you don't want to re-visit it.
again...jmho.....i know i would be very cautious about being involved with another alcoholic....it is just too painful.
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Ok..I'm pretty new to recovery (of alcoholism and my codie issues) so perhaps my words won't hold a lot of water. I have accepted that I can't drink again but I don't accept that I will never "recover". I have already realized that I have been practising a very sick relationship with myself for a very long time which includes abusing myself with alcohol, smoking, negative self talk, negative people and toxic relationships. I quit drinking and went to AA so I could learn how to live again..be out there in the real world without alcohol. I really and truly hope that I will not be attached umbillically to AA for the rest of my life. I may..I may not. Black and White thinking is dangerous. I quit drinking cuz I recognized all the potential and interests and life that alcohol was laying waste in its path. I see people at AA ..with 10 years sobriety STILL going to AA everynight. I dont' plan on having THAT much time to dedicate to AA. Right now, I'm a newbie and I do go every night. But I dunno..all this labelling and black and white thinking doesn't seem right to me. People come in all sorts of varieties..Yay for that. There are wonderful people in AA..and absolute creeps. There are some that emanate peace and some that still emanate anger.
I for one believe that we attract others on the same sort of psychic karmic level. You've healed some..maybe a lot..dunno..I don't know you...but is it not possible that he's healed a lot too? Do you truly beleive that all the work you are doing is for naught? No way...not me. I'm staying out of relationships until I've done some darn good work on myself...cuz in the interim ..at this stage..I will attract others still sick. But in this train of thought..when I'm better, I will attract better.
Just my two pennies.
I for one believe that we attract others on the same sort of psychic karmic level. You've healed some..maybe a lot..dunno..I don't know you...but is it not possible that he's healed a lot too? Do you truly beleive that all the work you are doing is for naught? No way...not me. I'm staying out of relationships until I've done some darn good work on myself...cuz in the interim ..at this stage..I will attract others still sick. But in this train of thought..when I'm better, I will attract better.
Just my two pennies.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Well you guys bring up some really good questions...
Embraced -
Well there is always that, and being that he is an Alcoholic that would definately be on my "con" list. I would not use the word worried... its more like the world revolves around recovery. Dont take me wrong, I appreciate my recover and Al-anon/AA very much... I guess its more like I think that the healthier I get, the more I should want to be in a normal relationship.... life with an Alcoholic would be anything but normal.. I dont know one Alcoholic that would not go back and be a social drinker... to not be alcoholic. So I have a chance to "go back" and be in a normal relationship. I may not be normal but my partner could be.
Mazey -
Hurmm, Well, the chemistry is better with him yes, but I dont think that has anything to do with his being an Alcoholic.... He actually is not more exciting, one of the normies has never been married, no children and travels extensively... which I find exciting... he is not from the States orginally so that is exciting... Nope I would not say the Alcoholic is more exciting but he is fun. We laugh all the time and there is something about him that is deep... Its almost like a cancer survivor ... they live life, really feel it and enjoy it... they have been given a second chance and they take nothing for granted.... therefore he does not take me for granted either. He is very attentive, respectful, peaceful and he appreciates everything. Because of his disease he does not "expect" anything and he is humble. The non-alcoholics are not like that.... they have not had anything happen to them like alcoholism, one is divorced and that is the worst thing ... splitting his assets was the worst thing in the world that has happened to him.
Hope that makes sense.
Nuudawn -
Amen to that and you can toss your two pennies my way anytime.
I have healed alot, I am such a different person now then I was 2 years ago... and maybe your right and its a psychic karmic thing.... but then why am I attracting men that are SO different. The men Im attracting are wonderful... all three of them are truely great guys and each of them bring alot to the table in very different ways... but they are really different as well.
Embraced -
are you worried about liking the alcoholic more?? i think so. you know how fragile recovery for the alcoholic is and you don't want to re-visit it.
again...jmho.....i know i would be very cautious about being involved with another alcoholic....it is just too painful.
again...jmho.....i know i would be very cautious about being involved with another alcoholic....it is just too painful.
Mazey -
Is the A the more "exciting/fun/chemistry there" one? Betcha he is....
Hope that makes sense.
Nuudawn -
Amen to that and you can toss your two pennies my way anytime.
I have healed alot, I am such a different person now then I was 2 years ago... and maybe your right and its a psychic karmic thing.... but then why am I attracting men that are SO different. The men Im attracting are wonderful... all three of them are truely great guys and each of them bring alot to the table in very different ways... but they are really different as well.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Richard seemed "perfect" for me in the beginning, too. Perhaps you're afraid that with a non-addict, you'll be on an equal playing field and that scares you. Perhaps you still like to be in control of things more than you care to admit to yourself. You have plenty of experience trying to control active addicts. Perhaps you think it'd be easy to do the same with a recovering alcoholic.
Just some things to ponder.
My aunt has been sober for 30 years now, and she still struggles daily to avoid drinking. Alcohol is always on her mind. She has attended AA and NA daily for 30 years now. She is in a far healthier place emotionally than she was 30 years ago, but continues to suffer from low self esteem, depression, and self-loathing. Her demon lies dormant, ever at the ready to overtake her again. Thirty years and much healing later, it STILL plagues her. She is never free from it.
Just some additional things to ponder.
Just some things to ponder.
My aunt has been sober for 30 years now, and she still struggles daily to avoid drinking. Alcohol is always on her mind. She has attended AA and NA daily for 30 years now. She is in a far healthier place emotionally than she was 30 years ago, but continues to suffer from low self esteem, depression, and self-loathing. Her demon lies dormant, ever at the ready to overtake her again. Thirty years and much healing later, it STILL plagues her. She is never free from it.
Just some additional things to ponder.
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Originally Posted by FormerDoormat 
Richard seemed "perfect" for me in the beginning, too. Perhaps you're afraid that with a non-addict, you'll be on an equal playing field and that scares you. Perhaps you still like to be in control of things more than you care to admit to yourself. You have plenty of experience trying to control active addicts. Perhaps you think it'd be easy to do the same with a recovering alcoholic.
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Richard seemed "perfect" for me in the beginning, too. Perhaps you're afraid that with a non-addict, you'll be on an equal playing field and that scares you. Perhaps you still like to be in control of things more than you care to admit to yourself. You have plenty of experience trying to control active addicts. Perhaps you think it'd be easy to do the same with a recovering alcoholic.
Control an alcoholic? recovering or not that is impossible, as well as controling anyone. I think I have learned that lesson and God gives me plenty of opportunity to practice letting go and not controling with my daughter of 17. Nope not a control issue.
None of them are even close to "perfect" and Im not close enough to know if any of them are perfect for me... Im in no rush to have a committed relationship. There is alot I have to do this year and Im pretty focused on my growth... Dont take me wrong if it happens I would not be against the idea, just that I dont care too much one way or the other. I just enjoy their company.
I guess the part I get stuck on is that I will never be normal? I will not be able to "recover" ... I dont like that Idea and that is what Im fighting. I guess today my life is not unmanageable ... though I am able to accept Im powerless over people, places and things...
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Cynay, I am so new to this that I don't have any advice at all.....but wanted you to know I am thinking about you.....You always respond honestly and with helpfulness to my posts....(((HUGS)))
Royalty
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 366
Maybe our real fault is that we over-analyse stuff TOO much 
Normal seems boring to me. Who wants that? Could you imagine life without any conflicts....if we all liked to do the same things, had the same opinions, and liked the same foods? Boring Boring and Boring.....
I don't believe that we are attracted to alcoholics or non-alcoholics.....we are attracted to a certain type of personality.....and we usually know it when we meet him. If you have this many questions about what you are attracting, then you haven't met "the one" yet. And just for the record, "the one" may be a non-alcoholic today, but you never know how one will end up..... I think there are alot that can testify that their A was not an A when they met.
Normal seems boring to me. Who wants that? Could you imagine life without any conflicts....if we all liked to do the same things, had the same opinions, and liked the same foods? Boring Boring and Boring.....
I don't believe that we are attracted to alcoholics or non-alcoholics.....we are attracted to a certain type of personality.....and we usually know it when we meet him. If you have this many questions about what you are attracting, then you haven't met "the one" yet. And just for the record, "the one" may be a non-alcoholic today, but you never know how one will end up..... I think there are alot that can testify that their A was not an A when they met.
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Maybe our real fault is that we over-analyse stuff TOO much
Now that is a different thought process.... you have a point, we never do know do we?
The questions really are not about them ... they are about me. For all I know one of them may be "the one" like I said it has not gone that far with any of them to determine any of that....
Nope this is all about my fears, disapointments, and wraping my head around the thought that I will always be sick. You could also be right in that "normal" would be boring and I would just get tired of it....
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Originally Posted by Cynay
It has been pointed out that I will not be able to have a normal relationship/life because I’m not normal. I will always have to work on my recovery as well or I will fall back into the “stinking thinking” That I will never be normal.
What do you all think?
What do you all think?
what is NORMAL anyhow?
I think you've all been a great help.
susan
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I want to thank everyone who is posting.... I have never had so many sponsors and such a varity of views to think about.... I do appreciate all of them.
For the purpose of this post Minuet "normal" is not working a program.
I have alot to think about in this....
For the purpose of this post Minuet "normal" is not working a program.
I have alot to think about in this....
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
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Great questions Cynay, I love how your mind works 
I'm going to try and answer each one separately.
The reason I continue to work a recovery program is _not_ because I think I will be "sick" forever. It's because life will continue to throw "stuff" at me forever.
The issues I had to overcome when I first started this journey are long gone and dealt with. The issues I deal with today are brand new to me, and I find that my recovery program is the _best_ tool that I have with which to handle _life_.
I have some health issues, which the docs tell me are caused by bad genes. I am allergic to certain chemicals, such as alcohol and sugar. Those allergies require me to abstain from those chemicals. That is my "sickness".
What causes me problems in my life _today_ has nothing to do with chemicals. It has to do with my _reactions_ to life being unhealthy. To me the word "disease" or the word "sickness" means that I am lacking in health. By that definition I have _two_ diseases to deal with; one being a disease of the body and genetics, another being a disease of my reactions.
If some day a medical miracle pill were to instantly cure my physical health issues I would still have my unhealthy reactions to deal with. If I were to forever abandon my current program of recovery I would still need _something_ with which to overcome the challenges of life.
Normal is what each one of us decides is _healthy_ for us. In turn that means that we each have to be responsible for making our own definition of "normal". In your very first post on this thread you defined your normal as
That sounds like a perfectly normal life to me. The question then is that if that is what you _want_, why do you keep dating alcoholics? If that is your goal you are going to have to change your tastes in men. Quit dating alkies and you will find the normal you want.
On the other hand if you enjoy dating alkies, if you find that "personality type" to be attractive and enjoyable maybe you need to do some work into digging up _why_ you are attracted to the kind of man that will _not_ give you the kind of life you want.
Am I making sense? Yeah, I know you hate it when I say that
As far as "normal" people, I have never met one that didn't have their own program of recovery. Some of them use a religious organization, they have 10 steps instead of 12. Others use their own family as their "support group" and their family traditions as their program. Even the hermits in-country Alaska have a set of beliefs and values that they turn to when life turns sour.
So my answer is "no". No human being can survive life without _some_ kind of program. It just doesn't have to be the same program for all people.
In my experience all human beings need _something_ to help us get thru life. We all have a program, we just don't all call it by the name "program".
A whole separate question is where to find a partner who has "depth". I don't think "depth" has anything to do with which program, religion, nationality or family a person comes from. Depth just means that a person has the kindness with which to respect anothers pain and the compassion with which to accept anothers shortcomings. In the terminology of my program a person with depth is one who's daily life is an example of the serenity prayer. People like that are very difficult to find _anywhere_. That's why there's so many dating services and web sites.
Since my own experience with dating sucks, and in a big way, I won't even start on that issue.
So that's my thoughts on that. That and good for you dating two guys, or is it three?
Mike
I'm going to try and answer each one separately.The reason I continue to work a recovery program is _not_ because I think I will be "sick" forever. It's because life will continue to throw "stuff" at me forever.
The issues I had to overcome when I first started this journey are long gone and dealt with. The issues I deal with today are brand new to me, and I find that my recovery program is the _best_ tool that I have with which to handle _life_.
I have some health issues, which the docs tell me are caused by bad genes. I am allergic to certain chemicals, such as alcohol and sugar. Those allergies require me to abstain from those chemicals. That is my "sickness".
What causes me problems in my life _today_ has nothing to do with chemicals. It has to do with my _reactions_ to life being unhealthy. To me the word "disease" or the word "sickness" means that I am lacking in health. By that definition I have _two_ diseases to deal with; one being a disease of the body and genetics, another being a disease of my reactions.
If some day a medical miracle pill were to instantly cure my physical health issues I would still have my unhealthy reactions to deal with. If I were to forever abandon my current program of recovery I would still need _something_ with which to overcome the challenges of life.
Normal is what each one of us decides is _healthy_ for us. In turn that means that we each have to be responsible for making our own definition of "normal". In your very first post on this thread you defined your normal as
Originally Posted by Cynay
... I want a normal life where the questions of Alcoholism are not a daily issue. I dont want my life to revolve around AA/Al-anon functions, or my only friends being in the program I dont want to come in second to his recovery...
On the other hand if you enjoy dating alkies, if you find that "personality type" to be attractive and enjoyable maybe you need to do some work into digging up _why_ you are attracted to the kind of man that will _not_ give you the kind of life you want.
Am I making sense? Yeah, I know you hate it when I say that
As far as "normal" people, I have never met one that didn't have their own program of recovery. Some of them use a religious organization, they have 10 steps instead of 12. Others use their own family as their "support group" and their family traditions as their program. Even the hermits in-country Alaska have a set of beliefs and values that they turn to when life turns sour.
So my answer is "no". No human being can survive life without _some_ kind of program. It just doesn't have to be the same program for all people.
In my experience all human beings need _something_ to help us get thru life. We all have a program, we just don't all call it by the name "program".
A whole separate question is where to find a partner who has "depth". I don't think "depth" has anything to do with which program, religion, nationality or family a person comes from. Depth just means that a person has the kindness with which to respect anothers pain and the compassion with which to accept anothers shortcomings. In the terminology of my program a person with depth is one who's daily life is an example of the serenity prayer. People like that are very difficult to find _anywhere_. That's why there's so many dating services and web sites.
Since my own experience with dating sucks, and in a big way, I won't even start on that issue.
So that's my thoughts on that. That and good for you dating two guys, or is it three?
Mike
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Cynay, love this thread. I have loved watching you work through this and have read many things to think about, as I have had many of the same questions in the past.
Mike, I always learn something from you. Everything you wrote made total sense to me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts....you are awesome.
Mike, I always learn something from you. Everything you wrote made total sense to me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts....you are awesome.
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LOL BigGirlPanties you crack me up....
As of last night it is now - 4 - guys Im dating.
Not unusal for me when I actually date. I prefer to have a relationship... dating is fun but more then a little stressful at times. These guys happen to be great though....
I have actually had 5 dates in one night.... of course I was alot younger then and more... ahhhh.... ahhhh.... I dont know the word.
Now .... hurm Depth and why am I attracted to Alcoholics. Im not JUST attracted to Alcoholics... but I guess your right in that I tend to connect with them. I guess Im going to have to think about that one, After the date tonight with the Alcoholic. *laughs* (he is so much fun)
It just gets confusing is all.... I do however want to figure this stuff out, Maybe your right in that all people work "something" and I just struggle with calling it a "program" ... Tell you what I will think about this after more coffee.
As of last night it is now - 4 - guys Im dating.
Not unusal for me when I actually date. I prefer to have a relationship... dating is fun but more then a little stressful at times. These guys happen to be great though....
I have actually had 5 dates in one night.... of course I was alot younger then and more... ahhhh.... ahhhh.... I dont know the word.
Now .... hurm Depth and why am I attracted to Alcoholics. Im not JUST attracted to Alcoholics... but I guess your right in that I tend to connect with them. I guess Im going to have to think about that one, After the date tonight with the Alcoholic. *laughs* (he is so much fun)
It just gets confusing is all.... I do however want to figure this stuff out, Maybe your right in that all people work "something" and I just struggle with calling it a "program" ... Tell you what I will think about this after more coffee.
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