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so here's a question...

Old 12-18-2006, 11:27 AM
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so here's a question...

I'm taking a few steps backwards and yes- asking a question that's really about him. And it's a lame question too. But I'm just trying to get my head around something...

You know how everyone always says that when an addict sees they're losing their codie, their behavior will intensify and get more extreme? Well when I first started this no contact with Rich, I saw some of this. At first he played the "I'm being a good boy and working hard on my recovery" game and checked himself into detox. Then he'd call crying cuz he was scared he needed surgery, then his birthday guilt trip he sent me on, etc.... a series of little manipulations like that. Now last I heard he's supposedly clean 45 days but I hardly believe it anymore. That was the last conversation where he told me he'd been a crackhead while we were together and I got hysterical crying and hung up on him. Haven't heard from him since.

Now that he got a new phone and lost my cell number, he called my mom's house once. And so far that's been it. He's not calling the house relentlessly, as far as I'm aware he hasn't been asking anyone in his family for my cell number, he's not showing up here (it's a 3-hour drive though), etc.... I think he'll kick things up a notch when Christmas rolls around, but I guess my question is...

Since his behavior isn't getting SO much worse, and that's what's supposed to happen, does that mean he never really loved me all that much? Yeah I know an addict can't truly love anyone, but you know what I'm getting at. Should I take and accept this as a reflection that he could kind of take me or leave me?
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:39 AM
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I still believe they love us

My guy is in jail, nothing to do, but hasnt written. He has dissappeared for weeks, and doesnt call. Like he forgets we exist. But I dont think its because he doesnt care. Sometimes I think it has to do with how they are feeling. Time is not the same to them (esp when they are using). I know in the past he hasnt contacted me because in his mind he was going to prove to me that I needed him. He expected me to do the chasing, and held out for weeks. Turns out he was thinking about us, just used to me doing all the work. In his mind if he called, then he lost the game. Plus if he was using, huge blocks of time that I spent worrying, he was spending in oblivion. But in talking to a sober him later, I did find out it was a strange game, where he figured I would get hold of him eventually, and that he could show me how much better he was doing, and I would miss him and take him back. Who knows what goes on in their minds? I do know two: Time is different to them than us. They do not want to take blame, so if they can play some mind game, they will. So in all, Im sure he loves you to whatever extent they can love. It is your choice to contact him. But I can just about guarantee that if you contact him, act like nothing happened, and ask him over for the weekend, he will be glad to come and act like nothing ever happened too.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sisterray View Post
in his mind he was going to prove to me that I needed him. He expected me to do the chasing, and held out for weeks.
Plus if he was using, huge blocks of time that I spent worrying, he was spending in oblivion.
he figured I would get hold of him eventually
he will be glad to come and act like nothing ever happened too.
Ugh-- see this is why I wanted to ask this question here. Yep, all of the above sound like him.
And the 3rd one the most! I could see him seeing that either way-- in time I'll get a hold of him or he'll get a hold of me. Whenever. Tha's how the relationship was, in so many ways I had all this urgency and he was always so 'whatever' about everything I considered worthy of getting worked up over. I used to find that so infuriating.

Thanks, sisterray. No I'm not contacting him, I'm just trying to get to the heart of this whole relationship, now that these days I have just a bit of distance from it.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:52 AM
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Since his behavior isn't getting SO much worse, and that's what's supposed to happen, does that mean he never really loved me all that much?
No. Self doubts are to me the same as actually blaming myself for what somebody else does or thinks. I have to watch out for that and not let it take me down.
There is really no figuring out what is in his mind but sisterray has come pretty close imo to explaining it.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by deax View Post
Since his behavior isn't getting SO much worse, and that's what's supposed to happen, does that mean he never really loved me all that much?
I think that one of the ironies of sites like this is that we hear so many stories that sound so much like ours, we feel less alone. Yet, at the same time, there is no rule book. We are all individuals, and so are the addicts we love. Just because something generally happens, or happens to a lot of people, doesn't mean that's how it always goes.

I don't think we can ever really know how someone else feels or felt, unless we have a healthy, honest relationship where we can trust them to tell us the truth. Outside of that, you can only be sure of your own feelings.

L
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:13 PM
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It is a weird irony LTD-- and I am happy to read all of your posts because I tend to think in such a black and white, all or nothing way that people's stories do become sort of a textbook and yes, the individuality gets lost. The lines get blurred for me sometimes in terms of 'what addicts do' and I compare myself and I take things people say to heart so much... I guess I'm trying to find a balance, or that place where my own truth lives. My own voice maybe. Or something like that.

Hm, maybe this thread wasn't so much about him after all.

And cmc you make a good point about watching my own self-defeating thought patterns... there's a lot of truth in what you said.

Thanks again everyone, I feel a bit clearer already!
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:14 PM
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have to agree with LTD that it really is an individual case.

In both of my relationships with the A - they kind of disappeared..they didn't try and get me back, didn't try and get sober.

They just moved on to their next relationship (pretty shortly after the one with me ended).

Sometimes it escalates, sometimes it doesn't.

You won't be able to understand him or his behaviors..once again look at the "whys" of what you do what you do.

You loved him - great...

Trying to figure out how much someone loved me just tied me up in knots.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Minx1969 View Post
In both of my relationships with the A - they kind of disappeared..they didn't try and get me back, didn't try and get sober.
Isn't it kind of natural to take that personally? It's like their big grand finale kick in the ass.

I mean I'm not distraught or anything, don't get me wrong, and time keeps meking me stronger... but it's a teeny bit disappointing when they don't indicate any major impact of their loss.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:22 PM
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So true... in any relationship that ends, I think, not just those with an A.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:34 PM
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Deax,

I think sisterray has hit it on the head, at least this is what I have been living. Sometimes it's scary but they are pretty textbook the way the behave. And there always is that convoluted idea if they call they've lost "the game". And if you have been the one to do the moves as I was they certainly don't want the status quo to be different.

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Originally Posted by sisterray View Post
My guy is in jail, nothing to do, but hasnt written. He has dissappeared for weeks, and doesnt call. Like he forgets we exist. But I dont think its because he doesnt care. Sometimes I think it has to do with how they are feeling. Time is not the same to them (esp when they are using). I know in the past he hasnt contacted me because in his mind he was going to prove to me that I needed him. He expected me to do the chasing, and held out for weeks. Turns out he was thinking about us, just used to me doing all the work. In his mind if he called, then he lost the game. Plus if he was using, huge blocks of time that I spent worrying, he was spending in oblivion. But in talking to a sober him later, I did find out it was a strange game, where he figured I would get hold of him eventually, and that he could show me how much better he was doing, and I would miss him and take him back. Who knows what goes on in their minds? I do know two: Time is different to them than us. They do not want to take blame, so if they can play some mind game, they will. So in all, Im sure he loves you to whatever extent they can love. It is your choice to contact him. But I can just about guarantee that if you contact him, act like nothing happened, and ask him over for the weekend, he will be glad to come and act like nothing ever happened too.
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:47 PM
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I think it's dangerous to lump alcoholics into a given subset of behaviors. It also keeps the focus where it doesn't belong - on the drinker. I don't believe "they" are textbook, though some act like others. Some do not.

What matters is how I act.
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by deax View Post
Isn't it kind of natural to take that personally? It's like their big grand finale kick in the ass.

I mean I'm not distraught or anything, don't get me wrong, and time keeps meking me stronger... but it's a teeny bit disappointing when they don't indicate any major impact of their loss.
Deax -

Since I'm not in their heads 24x7, I don't know how they took it..I did take it personal then, looking back not so much.

Sure I think it is natural that we want to know how hurt they are but remember men in general process things differently from us.

More then likely the A's in my life drank their sorrows away and continue to do so..

I just took it as that's what they needed to do..
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:05 PM
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You know, deax, you've brought up a good point - why would I want someone I profess to love to feel pain? I'd need to take a look at that. If I say I really don't, then isn't it possible the other person also does what they do because that is who they are? That the plain and simple truth is it has nothing to do with me?
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by denny57 View Post
You know, deax, you've brought up a good point -why would I want someone I profess to love to feel pain? I'd need to take a look at that. If I say I really don't, then isn't it possible the other person also does what they do because that is who they are? That the plain and simple truth is it has nothing to do with me?
God, denny, you have this way of phrasing things. I've read this like 10 times now and I still don't know if I get what you're saying, lol... And every time I try and respond, I think of something new.

First, I DO want him to feel pain from losing me. If someone doesn't feel the loss at all of someone they love walking out of their lives, then I don't know if they loved thst person.

At the same time, I know that someone's actions may not necessarily indicate their true feelings. Like, to me, a total stalker type who won't take no for an answer and harasses women-- I don't see that as love at all, I see that as a sickness. So I guess that's kinda why I asked here- I *think* he loved me (in his way...), but his behavior isn't escalating, so I wanted to make sure I was stil 'allowed' to believe that. We talk about addiction as being this selfish, irrational disease, so I guess I expected to see more irrational behavior.

Part of me thinks if he loved me more, he'd be banging my door down. But I know that's not even in his personality. Not that I've ever seen. I know he's gotten angry at another woman in the past and ended up getting arrested, but I never for a second felt that he would treat me that way. Different circumstances. Which then makes me wonder: is my belief that he wouldn't hurt me MY truth, or is that me making excuses for him? Those are exactly the kinds of issues that I find confusing-- what is guaranteed with their behavior, and what is just individual differences.

His relative calm and acceptance of the situation with me then therefore makes me think- he's not that bad. Now, I am never planning to get back together with him. Just trying to understand all of this for me. Some things still haven't clicked in my brain, and I analyze things so much that I can put them to work better in my life if I can really get them.

Back to pain-- yes I would also like for him to be in enough pain to hit his bottom (if one exists for him). Is that terrible of me?

Originally Posted by denny
isn't it possible the other person also does what they do because that is who they are? That the plain and simple truth is it has nothing to do with me?
I don't know why this never occurred to me. Seriously denny, you have a way of simplifying things and it makes so much sense. His handling of this situation is exactly who he is-- the guy who bad things just happen to. It's weirdly liberating for me to look at it that way. I don't have to take anythig he does personally, like cmc said. For some reason I think of movies and books where the guy turns his whole life around, has his moment of clarity in reponse to losing someone he loves. Rich isnt one of those guys. He already lost too much. He puts the bare minimum into everything, waits for life to work itself out, like sisterray alluded to. I know it's a cliche and eventually cliches kinda lose their meaning, but why would I expect someone who doesn't love himself at all to move mountains for me?
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Old 12-19-2006, 12:08 PM
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Well Deax I think your last sentence hit it on the head. And don't forget they do love us but, for them.

I think maybe the idea is to love someone because they are valuable human beings not what we can get from them.


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