This holiday I learned two important lessons...
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Recoveryville, USA
Posts: 1,297
Originally Posted by earthsong
Why waste all your energy and emotions on a man who doesn't give a damn about himself?
If he cared about his life or your life for that matter, then he would stop drinking. 'Can't' doesn't come in to it. He's proved that he can stop drinking... he just doesn't want to which is why he continues to drink.
If you try and play God in a persons life, then God cannot get in there to do His work. You can't save him, no matter how many times you give him ultimatums. He has to want to save his own life and if he doesn't want to save himself, he will die.....there's nothing you can do about it, nothing at all.....you should change your name to 'stilladoormat' because that's what you are.
If he cared about his life or your life for that matter, then he would stop drinking. 'Can't' doesn't come in to it. He's proved that he can stop drinking... he just doesn't want to which is why he continues to drink.
If you try and play God in a persons life, then God cannot get in there to do His work. You can't save him, no matter how many times you give him ultimatums. He has to want to save his own life and if he doesn't want to save himself, he will die.....there's nothing you can do about it, nothing at all.....you should change your name to 'stilladoormat' because that's what you are.
Cus shes a compassionate, loving woman who can see the man seperate from the disease.
Can you?
This last sentence of your post is UNCALLED for and inappropriate and just plain wrong. You owe Jill an apology.
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
I should be angry with you for being so insensitive, Earthsong, but I'm not. Instead, I feel deeply sorry for you. It's clear to me that you see Richard as only a drunk, and what a shame that is. When all you can see is an alcoholic, you miss the man behind the disease. And what a kind, compassionate, and lovely man he is. Even with all the pain that his alcoholism has brought into my life, if I had a chance to do it all over again, I'd still choose him above all others as my partner because no one I know has a gentler spirit than him.
Being an alcoholic doesn't make a person weak or worthless. Neither does loving one.
Being an alcoholic doesn't make a person weak or worthless. Neither does loving one.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Jill you are an example for us all. I wish there were more people in AA who are like you.
I've been thinking a lot about love lately. Just the other day I told this man that I am working with (in AA) that I loved him in a way he probably couldn't understand. He has had a rough time of it and is pretty beat up. This is probably his last chance at sobering up. He asked me what I meant. I told him that I loved him so much that if he needed to go drink himself to death that I wouldn't dream of getting in his way. That sounds harsh, but it is not. It is the highest form of love because it is the hardest to practice. It requires risk-the risk of a broken heart, because it does break my heart when that happens. It is also the kind of love that asks nothing in return. I don't expect these guys to get sober. That is a lot to ask of an alcoholic. Most of these guys are intelligent, sensitive, talented individuals. They are not destroying themselves because they want to.
As Kahlil Gibran said "Love will crown you and love will crucify you." Eathsong, you would do well to try and follow the example of Jill and these other ladies (and men) here. Try loving, it will soften your heart.
Jim
I've been thinking a lot about love lately. Just the other day I told this man that I am working with (in AA) that I loved him in a way he probably couldn't understand. He has had a rough time of it and is pretty beat up. This is probably his last chance at sobering up. He asked me what I meant. I told him that I loved him so much that if he needed to go drink himself to death that I wouldn't dream of getting in his way. That sounds harsh, but it is not. It is the highest form of love because it is the hardest to practice. It requires risk-the risk of a broken heart, because it does break my heart when that happens. It is also the kind of love that asks nothing in return. I don't expect these guys to get sober. That is a lot to ask of an alcoholic. Most of these guys are intelligent, sensitive, talented individuals. They are not destroying themselves because they want to.
As Kahlil Gibran said "Love will crown you and love will crucify you." Eathsong, you would do well to try and follow the example of Jill and these other ladies (and men) here. Try loving, it will soften your heart.
Jim
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 14,246
FD,
I wanted to thank you for sharing about the holiday with Richard. I found it very difficult to read because it touched me 'very close to home' if you know what I mean. My AS is insulin dependent and sober daughter as well, since ages 11 and 7 respectively (AS is now 26; SD is 32)... and I have had so many crises with them both and many times watched as they came close to dying while skilled emergency personnel or ER workers could not help them fast enough to prevent seizures. I would do the same for each- one child has been using drugs for 10 years and the other is sober, it's not their fault they are ill. My son is in jail now and shared, with me yesterday on the phone, how one of his real 'using buddies' always made sure he ate and took his insulin... I am forever grateful to his man.
Your compassion for Richard reflects strength and the willingness to give someone a chance. I find I walk a thin line sometimes that can be misunderstood as enabling etc. As someone had commented on your thread about you... I see you were acting with his best interest AND your recovery in mind all along. I have supplied medical help for my son while he was active and do not regret it at all. The alcoholic and/or addict may not value themselves but they ARE people and deserve basic human kindnesses and care. What I try to keep in mind is how far can I go in helping another without allowing myself harm and only I can determine that for ME. It is a risk for me as it was for you this time.
I am hoping and praying that Richard will find a way back to recovery- it is more complicated with diabetes for sure. You saved his life. I'm so sorry for how badly Richard's health has become.
You both are in my thoughts and prayers.
cmc
I wanted to thank you for sharing about the holiday with Richard. I found it very difficult to read because it touched me 'very close to home' if you know what I mean. My AS is insulin dependent and sober daughter as well, since ages 11 and 7 respectively (AS is now 26; SD is 32)... and I have had so many crises with them both and many times watched as they came close to dying while skilled emergency personnel or ER workers could not help them fast enough to prevent seizures. I would do the same for each- one child has been using drugs for 10 years and the other is sober, it's not their fault they are ill. My son is in jail now and shared, with me yesterday on the phone, how one of his real 'using buddies' always made sure he ate and took his insulin... I am forever grateful to his man.
Your compassion for Richard reflects strength and the willingness to give someone a chance. I find I walk a thin line sometimes that can be misunderstood as enabling etc. As someone had commented on your thread about you... I see you were acting with his best interest AND your recovery in mind all along. I have supplied medical help for my son while he was active and do not regret it at all. The alcoholic and/or addict may not value themselves but they ARE people and deserve basic human kindnesses and care. What I try to keep in mind is how far can I go in helping another without allowing myself harm and only I can determine that for ME. It is a risk for me as it was for you this time.
I am hoping and praying that Richard will find a way back to recovery- it is more complicated with diabetes for sure. You saved his life. I'm so sorry for how badly Richard's health has become.
You both are in my thoughts and prayers.
cmc
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hanging In There
Posts: 87
Hi Jill,
I read your post and my heart really goes out to you and Richard both.
I am sorry for the pain you feel and hope you find some peace within yourself.
I attend both AA and Alanon meetings. At one of my first AA meetingings I had complained to another person about the reeking smell of alcohol on someone there and why he was allowed to come in like that. She responded to me that even if he has only been sober for 2 hours – that is 2 hours towards sobriety. Everyone has to start somewhere and hopefully today is the day for him, it’s only 2 hours while he is at the meeting but it is a start, but it is not for us to judge him. I was nicely put in my place and understood immediately what she was saying.
I also read or heard somewhere something like this - that we as Alanon and AA members are there to support others, to help the alcoholic find sobriety if they want to and to help the codependent with their feelings and learning how not to be codependent.
I believe you did the right thing – Richard stopped drinking because of the boundary you set. Even if it caused you both pain, the point is – he stopped, even if for a short time. Maybe this will be the time he we give in and accept his alcoholism and maybe not. But if you had not asked him to Thanksgiving maybe his situation would have been worse.
As painful as it must be for you, thank you for sharing your story. We all feel pain here and knowing what other people are going through helps all of us to be stronger.
Being so new to this site – I read many posts to find messages and information for myself. You and many other posters that have experienced living with an A in your life have posted some very powerful messages that have helped me and many others.
I admire and respect your courage and kindness.
I will be praying for both you and Richard.
I read your post and my heart really goes out to you and Richard both.
I am sorry for the pain you feel and hope you find some peace within yourself.
I attend both AA and Alanon meetings. At one of my first AA meetingings I had complained to another person about the reeking smell of alcohol on someone there and why he was allowed to come in like that. She responded to me that even if he has only been sober for 2 hours – that is 2 hours towards sobriety. Everyone has to start somewhere and hopefully today is the day for him, it’s only 2 hours while he is at the meeting but it is a start, but it is not for us to judge him. I was nicely put in my place and understood immediately what she was saying.
I also read or heard somewhere something like this - that we as Alanon and AA members are there to support others, to help the alcoholic find sobriety if they want to and to help the codependent with their feelings and learning how not to be codependent.
I believe you did the right thing – Richard stopped drinking because of the boundary you set. Even if it caused you both pain, the point is – he stopped, even if for a short time. Maybe this will be the time he we give in and accept his alcoholism and maybe not. But if you had not asked him to Thanksgiving maybe his situation would have been worse.
As painful as it must be for you, thank you for sharing your story. We all feel pain here and knowing what other people are going through helps all of us to be stronger.
Being so new to this site – I read many posts to find messages and information for myself. You and many other posters that have experienced living with an A in your life have posted some very powerful messages that have helped me and many others.
I admire and respect your courage and kindness.
I will be praying for both you and Richard.
Always hopeful...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 429
FDM, I read this last night, and my heart ached for you & Richard. The disease is just incredible and the pain it can cause is so monstrous AND so very complicated. You both are in my thoughts & prayers. I am thankful we do have hearts....it makes us who we are, and that's good people! (It may cause us some discomfort at times, but WE FEEL!) 
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: england
Posts: 7
Please don't be sorry for me 'Formerdoormat' for I am one of the lucky ones that got away...and saw the light.I see things as they really are whilst you are still in denial....and that goes for most of your replies to this thread.
There is no 'Man behind this disease'... the man that kept getting up in the night, to vomit, to drink water....the one who lied that he'd stopped drinking at the beginning of the week ...who is lying to you..is the man you are dealing with. Stop the denial!
I am telling you the truth. I apologise for insulting you but I wanted you to wake up. He had been drinking up to the point of you picking him up. The way you describe his withdrawal is exactly what happens a few hours after the alcoholic stopped drinking. I have been there...I could have written the same email..exactly the same experience.....I brought my ex A to my home a hundred miles away. He couldn't even remember getting here! He continuted to drink until 10pm and during the night did exactly the same as your A. To me he appeared sober too! He lied to you. He never stopped drinking at the beginning of the week to please you at all. Please believe me... save yourself!
Three rules apply to both alcoholic and nonalcoholic- Self-responsibility, self-love and Self-will. You can do nothing to stop him drinking even if he chooses to die...stop torturing yourself and live your life. Let go and let God!
I urge you to read empowered recovery dot com.... survival guide to alcoholic relationships.....it will really help you to get well.
I wish you the very best.
There is no 'Man behind this disease'... the man that kept getting up in the night, to vomit, to drink water....the one who lied that he'd stopped drinking at the beginning of the week ...who is lying to you..is the man you are dealing with. Stop the denial!
I am telling you the truth. I apologise for insulting you but I wanted you to wake up. He had been drinking up to the point of you picking him up. The way you describe his withdrawal is exactly what happens a few hours after the alcoholic stopped drinking. I have been there...I could have written the same email..exactly the same experience.....I brought my ex A to my home a hundred miles away. He couldn't even remember getting here! He continuted to drink until 10pm and during the night did exactly the same as your A. To me he appeared sober too! He lied to you. He never stopped drinking at the beginning of the week to please you at all. Please believe me... save yourself!
Three rules apply to both alcoholic and nonalcoholic- Self-responsibility, self-love and Self-will. You can do nothing to stop him drinking even if he chooses to die...stop torturing yourself and live your life. Let go and let God!
I urge you to read empowered recovery dot com.... survival guide to alcoholic relationships.....it will really help you to get well.
I wish you the very best.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern indiana
Posts: 2,145
earthsong
if you would re-read formerdoormats first post here, you would see that she recognizes that she learned two important lessons this thanksgiving.....that a simple invitation can open your life to the chaos of effects of alcoholism, and that following your heart can re-invite the pain of alcoholsim right back into our lives.
she was sharing her experience, the results of that experience, and the knowlege that she gained from that experience.
she was also ackowleging the throes of alcoholsim that her loved one is still experiencing, and she did it with class and grace.
imo.....you have misinterperated her post.....please re-read and see if you come to a different conclusion after studying it closely....
wishing you well
jeri
if you would re-read formerdoormats first post here, you would see that she recognizes that she learned two important lessons this thanksgiving.....that a simple invitation can open your life to the chaos of effects of alcoholism, and that following your heart can re-invite the pain of alcoholsim right back into our lives.
she was sharing her experience, the results of that experience, and the knowlege that she gained from that experience.
she was also ackowleging the throes of alcoholsim that her loved one is still experiencing, and she did it with class and grace.
imo.....you have misinterperated her post.....please re-read and see if you come to a different conclusion after studying it closely....
wishing you well
jeri
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Highlands, TX
Posts: 1,192
Jill,
I just read this and broke out in chillbumps. I remember all too well what the DT's were like and was thankful for loving and compassionate family members who sought to help me even if I wasn't ready for it yet.
Thank you for sharing this. It is obvious (at least to me) that Richard did his best to comply with the boundary. It is also obvious to me that you care for him a great deal. I pray that this time will be different and that he will seek the help that he so desperately needs, but even if he doesn't your recovery is shining through. You were able to detach enough to experience a great Thanksgiving with your family and focus on them rather than wrap yourself all around this misery. Doesn't mean you didn't care but that you didn't let it rule you which I think is what we all are striving for right?
Big hugs to you,
Kellye
I just read this and broke out in chillbumps. I remember all too well what the DT's were like and was thankful for loving and compassionate family members who sought to help me even if I wasn't ready for it yet.
Thank you for sharing this. It is obvious (at least to me) that Richard did his best to comply with the boundary. It is also obvious to me that you care for him a great deal. I pray that this time will be different and that he will seek the help that he so desperately needs, but even if he doesn't your recovery is shining through. You were able to detach enough to experience a great Thanksgiving with your family and focus on them rather than wrap yourself all around this misery. Doesn't mean you didn't care but that you didn't let it rule you which I think is what we all are striving for right?
Big hugs to you,
Kellye
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by earthsong
Please don't be sorry for me 'Formerdoormat' for I am one of the lucky ones that got away...and saw the light.I see things as they really are whilst you are still in denial....and that goes for most of your replies to this thread.
I know this - I've seen that site and if it works for people, great. If I knew I would become insensitive, judgmental and overbearing from adopting its theories, I'd take a pass. Thanks for the eye opener - I'll stick to Al-Anon and compassion.
I Finally Love My Life!!!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 648
Pg 201 Courage to Change:
“Al-anon taught me the difference between walls and boundaries. Walls are solid and rigid; they keep others out, and they keep me trapped inside. Boundaries are flexible, changeable, removable, so it’s up to me open or closed I’ll be at any given time. They let me decide what behaviour is acceptable, not only from others but from myself. Today, I can say “No” with love instead of hostility, so it doesn’t put an end to my relationships.
…As I decide what is and isn’t acceptable for me, I learn to live protected without walls.”
That’s where I’m trying to be. "No," without hostility...Seems like you (FormerDoormat) are already there
“Al-anon taught me the difference between walls and boundaries. Walls are solid and rigid; they keep others out, and they keep me trapped inside. Boundaries are flexible, changeable, removable, so it’s up to me open or closed I’ll be at any given time. They let me decide what behaviour is acceptable, not only from others but from myself. Today, I can say “No” with love instead of hostility, so it doesn’t put an end to my relationships.
…As I decide what is and isn’t acceptable for me, I learn to live protected without walls.”
That’s where I’m trying to be. "No," without hostility...Seems like you (FormerDoormat) are already there
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
Richard woke up last night and was unable to breathe. His doctor and the nurses say he had a terrible night last night. He's contracted pneumonia and a lung specialist and a respiratory therapist are working closely with him now. I'm on my way to see him in a few moments.
He sure could use some prayers. Thank for, everyone, for helping me through this.
FD
He sure could use some prayers. Thank for, everyone, for helping me through this.
FD
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