Something I've noticed......
Royalty
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 366
Something I've noticed......
We have stopped trying to save our A's in our lives.....but we are trying to save everyone else from going through this too. Is this not a continuation of "fixing" everyone?
Don't take this the wrong way, because i think every person here knows their stuff!
It seems like lately, there have been a frequent number of "soon-to-be partners of A's" asking what's up, should they do this, should they leave this A, should they marry this A, what to do....
and almost every response is "RUN" "RUN A WAYYYYY". While that's the absolute truth from our hearts, that they should do exactly that, I just feel like it's wrong to say so. No one can tell another that they should go or not, marry or not....and no matter what they choose, we cannot "save" them.
Maybe it's just me, but I get the sense stronger from a few posters that almost always advise leaving the A, usually as soon as possible. From my side of things, I cannot leave, nor am I convinced that I need to, and in no danger, to myself or kids (maybe emotionally , and that's only if I let it)...
So my question is: Are we replacing fixing the A in our lives with fixing someone that is about to become part of an A's life?
I don't think there is any real harm in any of it, and by nature, "helping" is what codependants do, is this the same thing or not?
Don't take this the wrong way, because i think every person here knows their stuff!
It seems like lately, there have been a frequent number of "soon-to-be partners of A's" asking what's up, should they do this, should they leave this A, should they marry this A, what to do....
and almost every response is "RUN" "RUN A WAYYYYY". While that's the absolute truth from our hearts, that they should do exactly that, I just feel like it's wrong to say so. No one can tell another that they should go or not, marry or not....and no matter what they choose, we cannot "save" them.
Maybe it's just me, but I get the sense stronger from a few posters that almost always advise leaving the A, usually as soon as possible. From my side of things, I cannot leave, nor am I convinced that I need to, and in no danger, to myself or kids (maybe emotionally , and that's only if I let it)...
So my question is: Are we replacing fixing the A in our lives with fixing someone that is about to become part of an A's life?
I don't think there is any real harm in any of it, and by nature, "helping" is what codependants do, is this the same thing or not?
Wipe your paws elsewhere!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,672
I think it's an attempt to fix when we offer an opinion when it's not asked for, but it's entirely different when a poster specifically asks "what should I do?"
The reality on this forum is the overwhelming majority of folks here ultimately decide to end their relationships. And as you can see from a review of those folks' posts, they are no longer in pain, there is little or no chaos in their lives, and you rarely see their names attached to a gut-wenching post. For most everyone here, the solution was to end the relationship.
If someone without much time invested in their relationship (e.g., a person dating some for a few months) asked for my opinion, I'd be in the "run as fast as you can group" because I'd hate to see someone follow my footsteps and endure 24 years of pain.
But if you were a long-time member of this forum, you'd know that my boyfriend, Richard, and I are still together. But it took me booting his butt out the door and cutting off all contact with him for nearly a year, and a trip to the ER, a brush with death, and a bout on life support for him to get his life in order.
Today, nearly two years later, we still live in separate homes but we spend time together when we can. That way, should he decide to drink again, I can simply walk away with no strings attached because I refuse to watch him self-destruct again. As you can see, my boundaries are firmly in place and protecting myself and my sanity are my top priorities.
But had I known what I know now--that alcoholism is a progressive disease that affects EVERYONE in the family--I would have run as fast as I could. I see nothing wrong with sharing that with someone who asks for my opinion, and I wish I'd found this forum 24 years ago.
The reality on this forum is the overwhelming majority of folks here ultimately decide to end their relationships. And as you can see from a review of those folks' posts, they are no longer in pain, there is little or no chaos in their lives, and you rarely see their names attached to a gut-wenching post. For most everyone here, the solution was to end the relationship.
If someone without much time invested in their relationship (e.g., a person dating some for a few months) asked for my opinion, I'd be in the "run as fast as you can group" because I'd hate to see someone follow my footsteps and endure 24 years of pain.
But if you were a long-time member of this forum, you'd know that my boyfriend, Richard, and I are still together. But it took me booting his butt out the door and cutting off all contact with him for nearly a year, and a trip to the ER, a brush with death, and a bout on life support for him to get his life in order.
Today, nearly two years later, we still live in separate homes but we spend time together when we can. That way, should he decide to drink again, I can simply walk away with no strings attached because I refuse to watch him self-destruct again. As you can see, my boundaries are firmly in place and protecting myself and my sanity are my top priorities.
But had I known what I know now--that alcoholism is a progressive disease that affects EVERYONE in the family--I would have run as fast as I could. I see nothing wrong with sharing that with someone who asks for my opinion, and I wish I'd found this forum 24 years ago.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by HolyQow
We have stopped trying to save our A's in our lives.....but we are trying to save everyone else from going through this too. Is this not a continuation of "fixing" everyone?
Trying to fix the A is something that can't be done...only they can fix themself.
Trying to show compasion for others who are hurting "And seeking" is being nice to our fellow humans.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
Posts: 2,136
I don't feel it's a matter of trying to "fix" anyone; however, we are merely trying to share our experience, strength, and hope. I know of no 12-step program that advises anyone to leave their loved one. On the other hand, if someone is posting their distress over their situation with an A, and they are planning to get married, I think it is simply warning someone that what they have to expect in the future will not be pleasant.
Sexual passion wanes; infatuation wanes; the disease does NOT lessen until the A is ready to seek recovery. We're all codies here .... we glom onto addicts, we try to control addicts, we try to fix addicts, and we eventually become as sick as the addicts in our lives. Thus, those of us who have had years "in the trenches" tend to advise "run, do not walk, to the nearest exit."
Sexual passion wanes; infatuation wanes; the disease does NOT lessen until the A is ready to seek recovery. We're all codies here .... we glom onto addicts, we try to control addicts, we try to fix addicts, and we eventually become as sick as the addicts in our lives. Thus, those of us who have had years "in the trenches" tend to advise "run, do not walk, to the nearest exit."
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake Luzerne
Posts: 1,786
I'm not tryng to fix anyone. I like being heard and having my sanity validated. I like people welcoming my opinion. I think we come here for support and reinfprcement to remember we can't fix them. I like not being blamed. I like to come here for reinforcement that detaching is caring not abandoning. I like people here telling me it's OK to think about me. I like coming to a place like this and exposing my vulnerabilities without having them used against me.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
I try to share my 18 years of watching the progression of the disease. I cannot in any honest way advise someone to stay or go. I had quite a few people tell me when I started dating AH back in 1988 to RUN RUN RUN. I cut them off and stayed. My choice and boy oh boy my consequences. Today in recovery I can say I wish I had done this years ago, not just for my sake, but his, too. I also understand that isn't how it works - I had to follow my path just like everyone else.
In recent years there were those who started suggesting Al-Anon. Took me over a year to listen to that advice. But the seed was planted and I took action when I was ready.
So bottom line for me is throwing the seeds out there. They'll grow in the places they are meant to.
Thanks for the post.
In recent years there were those who started suggesting Al-Anon. Took me over a year to listen to that advice. But the seed was planted and I took action when I was ready.
So bottom line for me is throwing the seeds out there. They'll grow in the places they are meant to.
Thanks for the post.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 412
Well most people start out here overwhlemed and unhappy and explicitly looking for guidance. When I first came here, I didn't wanna chat with strangers about my alcoholic boyfriend. I wanted someone to TELL ME WHAT TO DO TO FIX HIM. I was looking for answers. I didn't like the ones I got, but people's honestly is what broke the denial I was in. The first few nights I found this place, I went to bed crying from what people were telling me.
At that time I used to think this same thing to myself as what you are saying, everyone says to leave him. I attributed it to bitterness. That things hadn't worked out well for these women so they didn't want to see anyone else have success either. That's what I thought.
But then the more I learned about the realities of addiction, the more I could see that all I really wanted was support to continue fighting a losing battle. And thankfully people here wouldn't give me that.
Quite unbelievably, my situation was not terminally unique. Other people had alcoholic boyfriends who were nice guys, sweethearts, who weren't malicious, who loved them. Dammit!
So the message I interpret from the posts I read today speak less to me about 'leave him' and more about 'take responsibility for yourself.' People who come here and are overwhelmed and unhappy and looking for guidance, like we all did probably, can benefit from learning the truth about what they're up against, and realizing they do have choices. Stay and accept your situation and use these coping skills (some people can do that, some- like me- can't), or take yourself out of the situation. Do something. From what I've seen I think people advise no contact for a time most frequently here.
And like FD was saying, some of what's behind advising people is just to help them understand. There's a world of difference between someone who's been in an alcoholic relationship for years and understands detachment versus someone brand new to all of this (like I was) who chooses to stay because she just can't bring herself to leave or still believes she will love or control it all away. I know I firmly I believed I could control him into submission.
So sometimes I feel guilty for advising people to leave or to spend some time without contact, but I understand better now the reasons why it so often comes out that way. People are complicated, for some people the best thing really is to leave and we can all see others' situations better than our own. Some people are secure enough to not care what advice people give them, they know what they need to do. For me it's not about saving anybody here, I don't know anyone personally. It's just empathy and 2 cents based on experience, for whatever mine is worth. It is just a message board after all, meant for discussion. Everyone's free to do whatever they want in the end.
By the same token, it should be acknowledged that people bring their own emotional baggage to any situation. For example, I feel a twinge of envy when someone else's loved one achieves sobriety. *shrug* I'll admit it. I guess I mention that just to say that hopefully people can remember that opinions are like a-holes, everyone's got one, and no one is perfect or 100% right all the time. No matter how serene or logical they sound, lol. We're all flawed. I always need to work on this, not glorifying what other people have to say. The applicability of the ideas and the slogans is rather amazing. Take what you want and leave the rest, other people's opinions of me are none of my business, live and let live. It applies even here. Sorry, going off on a tangent now.
At the end of the day, if people want advice and guidance here, they tend to get it. Whether they like it or not. What denny said, about planting seeds and they grow where they're supposed to. I think that's a great POV for sharing ES&H.
At that time I used to think this same thing to myself as what you are saying, everyone says to leave him. I attributed it to bitterness. That things hadn't worked out well for these women so they didn't want to see anyone else have success either. That's what I thought.
But then the more I learned about the realities of addiction, the more I could see that all I really wanted was support to continue fighting a losing battle. And thankfully people here wouldn't give me that.
Quite unbelievably, my situation was not terminally unique. Other people had alcoholic boyfriends who were nice guys, sweethearts, who weren't malicious, who loved them. Dammit!
So the message I interpret from the posts I read today speak less to me about 'leave him' and more about 'take responsibility for yourself.' People who come here and are overwhelmed and unhappy and looking for guidance, like we all did probably, can benefit from learning the truth about what they're up against, and realizing they do have choices. Stay and accept your situation and use these coping skills (some people can do that, some- like me- can't), or take yourself out of the situation. Do something. From what I've seen I think people advise no contact for a time most frequently here.
And like FD was saying, some of what's behind advising people is just to help them understand. There's a world of difference between someone who's been in an alcoholic relationship for years and understands detachment versus someone brand new to all of this (like I was) who chooses to stay because she just can't bring herself to leave or still believes she will love or control it all away. I know I firmly I believed I could control him into submission.
So sometimes I feel guilty for advising people to leave or to spend some time without contact, but I understand better now the reasons why it so often comes out that way. People are complicated, for some people the best thing really is to leave and we can all see others' situations better than our own. Some people are secure enough to not care what advice people give them, they know what they need to do. For me it's not about saving anybody here, I don't know anyone personally. It's just empathy and 2 cents based on experience, for whatever mine is worth. It is just a message board after all, meant for discussion. Everyone's free to do whatever they want in the end.
By the same token, it should be acknowledged that people bring their own emotional baggage to any situation. For example, I feel a twinge of envy when someone else's loved one achieves sobriety. *shrug* I'll admit it. I guess I mention that just to say that hopefully people can remember that opinions are like a-holes, everyone's got one, and no one is perfect or 100% right all the time. No matter how serene or logical they sound, lol. We're all flawed. I always need to work on this, not glorifying what other people have to say. The applicability of the ideas and the slogans is rather amazing. Take what you want and leave the rest, other people's opinions of me are none of my business, live and let live. It applies even here. Sorry, going off on a tangent now.
At the end of the day, if people want advice and guidance here, they tend to get it. Whether they like it or not. What denny said, about planting seeds and they grow where they're supposed to. I think that's a great POV for sharing ES&H.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by deax
So sometimes I feel guilty for advising people to leave or to spend some time without contact, but I understand better now the reasons why it so often comes out that way. People are complicated, for some people the best thing really is to leave
Staying, growing, learning is the answer some people need and are able to do.
All people..those that stay and those that leave have the same need....
Grow and learn. Take care of self. Deal with our own recovery issues. Learn how to fix us. Staying or leaving, the need is still there...we need to fix us.
By helping others we help ourself along the way.
Royalty
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 366
That was well said deax..
I was just having a moment of wondering what my purpose here was. Am I trying to help everyone? Am I trying to save them from my same mistakes? Am I trying to learn from this? Am I avoiding my own problems by focusing on others? .... You know, the day when you start questioning yourself and can't really come up with an answer. Your explanation was great.
Thanks.
I was just having a moment of wondering what my purpose here was. Am I trying to help everyone? Am I trying to save them from my same mistakes? Am I trying to learn from this? Am I avoiding my own problems by focusing on others? .... You know, the day when you start questioning yourself and can't really come up with an answer. Your explanation was great.
Thanks.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by HolyQow
That was well said deax..
I was just having a moment of wondering what my purpose here was. Am I trying to help everyone? Am I trying to save them from my same mistakes? Am I trying to learn from this? Am I avoiding my own problems by focusing on others? .... You know, the day when you start questioning yourself and can't really come up with an answer. Your explanation was great.
Thanks.
I was just having a moment of wondering what my purpose here was. Am I trying to help everyone? Am I trying to save them from my same mistakes? Am I trying to learn from this? Am I avoiding my own problems by focusing on others? .... You know, the day when you start questioning yourself and can't really come up with an answer. Your explanation was great.
Thanks.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: In Search of Finding ME!
Posts: 1,246
From what I recall, I have never been one to say "run" or anything of that sort.
I try to point out that we all have choices. And that their life with the person may stay the same or even get worse. I want them to think rationally before they get so involved that they lose sight of reality (as so many codependants can and do).
My aim is not to save anyone. My aim is to get them to see that they have a choice.
It's my hope in sharing my own story that I someone will be spared years of grief and pain by not traveling down the path I did.
For myself - the only people that I try to save is myself. And I try to cushion the pain that my children feel because of their Dad. But I think that is a very normal reaction of any parent.
Just my thoughts.
I try to point out that we all have choices. And that their life with the person may stay the same or even get worse. I want them to think rationally before they get so involved that they lose sight of reality (as so many codependants can and do).
My aim is not to save anyone. My aim is to get them to see that they have a choice.
It's my hope in sharing my own story that I someone will be spared years of grief and pain by not traveling down the path I did.
For myself - the only people that I try to save is myself. And I try to cushion the pain that my children feel because of their Dad. But I think that is a very normal reaction of any parent.
Just my thoughts.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
I believed in the American Dream (what ever that is). Picket fence etc.
AA and Al-Anon taught me to face life on life's terms. (HATE IT!) but the book "The Road Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck gave me some help. He said, "Life is difficult" then wrote, that once we understand this it ain't so bad.
The only place that teaches this is AA and Al-Anon. I was a goof off in school due to weekend drinking. Once I got sober and found the programs, I have become a constant student of many things. This site is my daily shot in the arm, helps me remember, "Life is Difficult", face life on lifes terms!
(I have a metal block for spelling, and no idea how to write things, so if I knew those two things, I'd be dangerious. (SMILE)
I admit to being a fix-it addict, that happy ever after for everyone is still deep down somewhere. BUT, if someone is young, no childern and not married, I am first to think "RUN ", and sometimes I reply and say that.
Young are flexable.
When young, I got over a madly in love situation in 3 months. but nearly died of a broken heart. Then if you spend a few years with Mr. Wonderful , you will never forget, never get over the heart break. Fades a bit, but never gone. Makes sense to me if young it is easier to move on.
Also seems so very true, the young will make the mistakes that older people want so badly to save them from.
I also need to remember, "Love and tolerance is our code" page 84 in AA Big Book.
I need to remember that and be careful around those that have never had our programs. Easy to remember around the alcoholics.
My favorite recovering A is still a con, guess what, so am I, so I tell him, "Watch it, you can't con a con!" (He laughs)
AA and Al-Anon taught me to face life on life's terms. (HATE IT!) but the book "The Road Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck gave me some help. He said, "Life is difficult" then wrote, that once we understand this it ain't so bad.
The only place that teaches this is AA and Al-Anon. I was a goof off in school due to weekend drinking. Once I got sober and found the programs, I have become a constant student of many things. This site is my daily shot in the arm, helps me remember, "Life is Difficult", face life on lifes terms!
(I have a metal block for spelling, and no idea how to write things, so if I knew those two things, I'd be dangerious. (SMILE)
I admit to being a fix-it addict, that happy ever after for everyone is still deep down somewhere. BUT, if someone is young, no childern and not married, I am first to think "RUN ", and sometimes I reply and say that.
Young are flexable.
When young, I got over a madly in love situation in 3 months. but nearly died of a broken heart. Then if you spend a few years with Mr. Wonderful , you will never forget, never get over the heart break. Fades a bit, but never gone. Makes sense to me if young it is easier to move on.
Also seems so very true, the young will make the mistakes that older people want so badly to save them from.
I also need to remember, "Love and tolerance is our code" page 84 in AA Big Book.
I need to remember that and be careful around those that have never had our programs. Easy to remember around the alcoholics.
My favorite recovering A is still a con, guess what, so am I, so I tell him, "Watch it, you can't con a con!" (He laughs)
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 51
No need to envy someone whose loved one is in sobriety. With this disease, one can be sober one minute and relapse the next. I believe we are all keeping our fingers crossed.
I wouldn't advise anyone to put themselves in a codependent position. I guess I would say run if you can, because I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. On the other hand, some of us just can't easily give up on the ones we love.
Addicts have to make their own decisions about stopping using, and we, as codependents, also have to decide when enough is enough. I don't give up easily. I have set my boundaries. My friends and my family think I am crazy for holding on. Maybe I am. People who have never been in our shoes will never understand what we are going through. I have learned a lot by just reading the posts of other people in similiar circumstances.
Codependents are by far, not wimps. I think we are always "standing in the gap" for the ones we love, ready to support them in their recovery. I won't help my ABF keep using, but I'll surely visit him and encourage him in rehab, which is where he is right now. It definitely takes a special person to love an addict.
I wouldn't advise anyone to put themselves in a codependent position. I guess I would say run if you can, because I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. On the other hand, some of us just can't easily give up on the ones we love.
Addicts have to make their own decisions about stopping using, and we, as codependents, also have to decide when enough is enough. I don't give up easily. I have set my boundaries. My friends and my family think I am crazy for holding on. Maybe I am. People who have never been in our shoes will never understand what we are going through. I have learned a lot by just reading the posts of other people in similiar circumstances.
Codependents are by far, not wimps. I think we are always "standing in the gap" for the ones we love, ready to support them in their recovery. I won't help my ABF keep using, but I'll surely visit him and encourage him in rehab, which is where he is right now. It definitely takes a special person to love an addict.
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: reality
Posts: 156
When I read postings about people's lives with their addicts I think to myself, "Do I want a life like that?" I mean, the need to lock the purse in the car, the separate houses, never expecting anything...etc.
But then again, there are no assurances in life and maybe the type of relationship that develops so that it is tolerable to live with the addict we so dearly love is really the only real kind there is.
I might find a great guy and love him to bits and he would have some other baggage, he could die in myriad ways and not ever touch alcohol or drugs.
I might have fantasies with him of what our future would be that are just as unrealistic.
Reality is, my ABF is a nice guy, and sober he is perfect...that makes the choice to stay or go so hard. I don't know what I am going to do yet. I know there are people who make this work, and I know there are some who don't and I know there are some who just can't.
But then again, there are no assurances in life and maybe the type of relationship that develops so that it is tolerable to live with the addict we so dearly love is really the only real kind there is.
I might find a great guy and love him to bits and he would have some other baggage, he could die in myriad ways and not ever touch alcohol or drugs.
I might have fantasies with him of what our future would be that are just as unrealistic.
Reality is, my ABF is a nice guy, and sober he is perfect...that makes the choice to stay or go so hard. I don't know what I am going to do yet. I know there are people who make this work, and I know there are some who don't and I know there are some who just can't.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 782
Originally Posted by Denny
So bottom line for me is throwing the seeds out there. They'll grow in the places they are meant to.
I think there are many of you who consistently and patiently threw seeds into my life for a loooong time...just over 18 months!!! I never rejected what was said...just stored them into my little mental filing cabinet and processed and pondered them for many, many months. You're right...there is no way that anyone can make anyone do anything. I was reading my old posts yesterday, and someone did mention to me in February 2005 to RUN far and fast. I didn't. But when I was ready to do something different (for me it was moving out...for others of course it isn't), I was equipped with the fullest mental filing cabinet with the most info out there!!!
Thanks guys.
Boy, and were you all patient...
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