denny57

Reminds me of Indiana Jones.

equus

For all those who have said the chart shows a perfect model of their loved one can I ask if they are either dead or went all the way down and have now gone all the way up? If not they are only a fraction of the chart even if exact!

Did you notice that there's no recovery path in the middle stages? In other words unless at the top, nothing was possible until the bottom - we do know better these days thankfully, and would take seriously an attempt to stop through ALL stages.

pmaslan

What I think it means is if you don't stop or get help this may or
will happen in the end. I think we all know that if someone continues
to ingest large amounts of poison the end result is death.

denny57

It's a progression chart. My AH is at the bottom. It purports to show the expected progression if recovery is not sought at some point along it. It does not proclaim every single alcoholic must hit the bottom of the chart before they can recover. Jeeesh.

p.s. I found it very helpful, also - our doctor gave it to me. I hope it may help others understand a little more that someone else's disease is not about them, though it may affect them.

equus

It may be what it means but that isn't what it says. (I'm not blaming you for that Patty!). It shows early recovery paths, even highlights the moment where help is needed (although doesn't define what help means), then there's a whole outrageous gap with no early way to stop drinking!!

It has had an impact, look at how people view 'reaching bottom' as though getting all the way down is the only way up. In terms of present day medical knowledge that's NUTS - the sooner stopped the better and people stop at different points.

equus

I find that extremely sad... you could have been offered better, you needn't have simply been given text half a decade old.

I am not arguing that the decline is impossible just that 'only' the decline cannot represent all the information on the chart. There are many folk getting sober at different points and in different ways. If individual CHOOSE to remain 50 years in the past then I respect that choice - don't ask me to be thrilled about doctors making the same choice for them though!

LaTeeDa

I believe the point of this thread was to give more information to a new poster (misplacedaustin) who does not wholly accept that it will get worse.

Again, the point of the thread was that we 'all' don't know that, or maybe we do, but don't want to accept it.

L

denny57

Could you cite that please?

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, but come on - I haven't heard one person on this board say someone had to go all the way down before heading up. Maybe it's your perception of what the 12 steps are all about.

denny57

Your sadness is misplaced, equus. I consider myself extremely fortunate to live in a city that has some of the leading and most progressive views in the field of alcoholism. I've been offered the absolute BEST information and used it accordingly.

Feeling a little feisty today, but that's about it for me on this one. Again, I hope it is of use to people the way it was to me.

equus

It's on the chart (lack of recovery lines after the first stages)!!! No-one on the board has said that!! BLAH!! I didn't even think it had anything to do with the 12 steps!! I agree AA is not mentioned!

I'm not being funny but I have no dispute with people here - my dispute is with half century old, highly condensed and in today's terms poorly represented information.

pmaslan

Well my perception of "all the way to the bottom" is death.
So finding their way back up is NOT an option at that point.
edit* Half a century old or not this truth remains the same.

And LTD is right this chart as controversial as it is does give
a newbie a view of the disease, as it may progress, IF untreated.

Pick I understand you intent here was to help a newbie understand
this. Thanks for taking the time to post the link,,,Jazzman too!

equus

On considering the chart progressive we will have to agree to differ....

equus

Do you think it will have proved the point folk wanted it to?

Pick-a-name

My AH is still active (started drinking in teens and continues at age 51y; waxes and wanes but he has always some,usually daily,drinking), and getting near the bottom of the chart. (The last time I saw this chart,he was more in the middle with his "symptoms").

The chart shows the usual course of problems that start to arise when the addiction continues without stopping and recovery work. A person is free to start recovery at the top of the chart or anywhere along along the path;that is up to them (their "bottom"). This just shows the decline in the quality of life for an untreated addict.

The recovery "up" can start at any point, and seems to follow a certain path,also (I have seen that with my sister).

Pick-a-name

Well; I agree to disagree. Just because information is "old" does not necessarily make it wrong. Gravity is still the same,even if we understand the mechanics better....we still know that if you step out of a window,you will fall and probably hurt something in the process,even if you don't understand the science behind it.

Thanks all for you for your comments and sharing your thoughts!

Jazzman

This is probably pointless, but what the hey?

EQ, the chart was handed to me in a treatment center as part of a huge information packet intended for families. It was not handed out AS treatment.

I see validity in the downward portion and I didn't really pay any attention to the upward TBH. Looks WAY too subjective to me. The downward portion, if nothing more, helps people who have never struggled with an addiction, (baffled at trying to comprehend why a person would do this to themselves) begin to understand just HOW far a persons bottom CAN be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by equus

For all those who have said the chart shows a perfect model of their loved one can I ask if they are either dead or went all the way down and have now gone all the way up? If not they are only a fraction of the chart even if exact!.

Myself, (cocaine), I got to just above loss of job and did nothing at all representative of the upward portion.

My Father, (alcohol). got to 1/2 way in the late stage, just above loss of family, entered rehab, 12 steps, in recovery until his death that was alcohol related.

My sisters Husband, (alcohol) same place as my Father but just below lost his family. He is now one month into a one year faith based program,( his second one year faith based program BTW).

My ex wife, (alcohol) she's currently at the bottom just hovering between complete abandonment and Death.

So EQ I'm curious, would you place D anywhere on this chart as far as the downward portion goes? Just for the sake of argument, forget that ALL MUST follw this EXACT progression becase clearly ALL do not.

Pick-a-name

Jazz;very interesting. Thanks for sharing your observations of yourself and loved ones.

equus: I wondered about D,too. Where did you see him (if anywhere) along this chart? Weren't you apart about ten years because you chose to walk way from the problems that went with his alcoholism? (maybe I misunderstood that part)

Jazzman

BTW EQ, there are hand drawn lines in the chart in the greyed out "Help Needed" section that indicate that not all people are expected to go all the way down to the bottom before they can go back up.

It's a VERY old chart that has beed copied and copied and copied....

guyinNC

I think it was an interesting chart:

My wife has hit several mileposts on her way down,

Currently she is trying geographical escape attempt, drinking with inferiors, hospital, unable to work.

Hope she starts the way up and not the other choice.

equus

D would have gone down to almost the bottom, then back up while still drinking, down again but not as far - but without doubt it was messy and he was wise to stop!! Also some of the things very low down happened to him very early while other things were relatively ok. He had lots of 'life' stuff like lost jobs, no home, etc but less behaviour stuff like DUI etc - if that makes sense?

Yup and they stop around the early stages - there's more than one, they have an individual path, help needed is labelled - THEN THEY STOP (caps just cos lazy!!). That reads as no further root from that point until bottom.