Blogs


Veganism?

Old 07-17-2015, 06:30 AM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
Veganism?

Well, it's now 20 years since i became vegetarian.

It started as a thought experiment, what if i didn't eat meat, so animals didn't have to be killed to feed me? Whilst I quite liked meat, I didn't like it enough for this to feel like a big loss.

I don't go around lecturing others, in fact, outside of my liberal university social circle, I dread being forced to come into the open with my choice. Eg. Work Christmas meal, everyone sat around the table waiting to be served, caterer comes up to the table, "anyone here got any special dietary requirements?" . I'm forced to raise my hand, 40 people turn and look, and the ****-taking starts.

I guess they're just getting their own back for vegetarians that have tried to guilt trip them in the past for eating meat.

In my opinion, it would be better if everyone ate 20% less meat than if 10% of the population gave up animal products completely, right down to trace ingredients like gelatine they may have unknowingly consumed in an otherwise plant-based product.

Recently however, i've subscribed to the Youtube channels of several charismatic, intelligent and highly-motivating vegan health & fitness gurus ( Vegan Gains, Durianrider). And I'm starting be reminded of the fact that many (all?) vegans regard dairy to be "just as bad " as meat itself.

Freelee banana girl in particular was freaking out about the recent Ariana Grande incident, because Ariana licked a non-vegan donut, that contained diary products, despite having recently told the world she'd become a vegan. Personally, I was a lot more disgusted that she'd contaminated a food item that someone else was going to eat, and that she made some comments that were pretty offensive, but whatever, i guess it's a question of priorities.

So back to the crux of the matter. Can anyone with some knowledge of dairy farming, offer insight as to the cruelty potential of dairy? Is it really, "just as bad, if not worse, than eating meat?"

Is dairy "murder"?

What I've told myself over the years, is that it is not "as bad" as eating meat, because killing an animal is an intrinsic part of the process of making a steak, it is unavoidable. The production of milk however, does not require the death of any animal. Ultimately I tell myself, it is not my fault if the industry chooses to kill or mistreat the animals , when it is not essential to the process. By not consuming dead animal flesh, i have at least held up my end of the bargain.

In practice , i understand that cows only produce milk for a time after calving. So if we don't slaughter most of the calves, we'd have to produce drastically less milk, and the cost of production would go up astronomically, as the farm would be overrun with unwanted, unproductive adult bovines.

So, what's the truth of it? Would those calves be slaughtered anyway to feed meat eaters, and i am just consuming a byproduct , in the milk, or are they actually slaughtering more calves than they need to because demand for milk is so high?

Why not just go back to eating meat then? Well, the truth is, after twenty years, i just don't fancy it any more. Walking past all that uncooked stuff in the supermarket, i've forgotten what it turns into when cooked and that it tastes nice and doesn't make you ill.

Why don't I go full vegan then, and stop "sitting on the fence"?

Well, I'm sure I would if I had a health food shop in walking distance of my house and workplace. Or if I was a less dysfunctional person, or was taking Modafinil and leapt out of bed every morning thinking "Yipee, what can I do today? I know, I'll go to a shop, buy a load of hard to find ingredients, then cook a low fat, but tasty meal for myself that combines a load of different legumes and pulses to make sure i get all of the essential amino acids".

The reality of my life is that my work days are a desperate scramble to keep the show on the road. My days off are spent in a subhuman funk, unwilling to keep food in the house in case it leads to a bored/stressed binge, till after 24, 36 or 48 hours hunger overcomes fatigue and social phobia and leads me to the convenience store, where i load my basket and proceed to scoff in one go (pretty much).

Despite that very dysfunctional existence, I still get my 50g RDA protein by drinking organic skimmed (nonfat) milk, eating low fat yoghurts, or by eating Quorn pieces (synthetic protein, like Vegemite, bound together with egg white) with baked beans. The rest of my calorie needs are easier to fill, atm. mostly by scoffing tinned fruit.

If I tried to go Vegan with this lifestyle, i'd probably end up with rickets or scurvy. If i lived like that as a meat eater, i'd be dead of food poisoning in a few days.

Why being vegetarian can kill more animals than eating meat | Measure of Doubt
Liberator4EVA is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Liberator4EVA For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015), darknesswithin (08-26-2015), Ghostly (07-17-2015), ultradad (07-17-2015)
Old 07-17-2015, 07:08 AM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
ultradad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 888
As someone who has struggled with the ethical issues surrounding veganism I’ll just give you my thoughts. I was vegan for almost a year and then health reasons forced me back to add some animal products into my diet. I really struggled with the whole ethics of eating animals at the time and it was really hard. I eventually went back to being vegan and then ultimately tried vegetarianism. Each time, health issues or often times my own body’s cravings for certain nutrients or ‘taste/texture’ would have me back eating meat.

I finally did a lot of research and have sense come to terms with the ethical side of eating animals or not eating animals. It ultimately boiled down to true veganisim would tend to have no animal ever die, but the truth is we all die, animals and human alike. So, the issue, for me, became one of suffering and not necessarily death. I realized that most animal kill and eat other animals for their own survival and so even though I may not HAVE to have animal protein to survive, I do believe it provides the most optical health benefits. Also, I have a daughter with Type 1 diabetes and trying to maintain her blood glucose levels on a plant based, high carb diet was very difficult. Eventually as the husband, Father and co-leader of my own tribe/family I felt it best to add back animal protein. We do, however, source local grassfed animals and I’m still very much against factory farming and suffering of animals. We purchase RAW milk from a local dairy farmer and eggs from a local family that raises his own chickens. Oh yeah, and I haven't died from food poisoning yet, lol!

So, to answer your question, I would say dairy and eggs cause the least, if any suffering and I would absolutely continue if it were me.

Two sites that really changed my life are:

This one
Especially the link on Interviews with Ex-Vegans.

And this one!

All the best!

~Rob
ultradad is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ultradad For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015), Ghostly (07-17-2015), Liberator4EVA (07-17-2015)
Old 07-17-2015, 07:57 AM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
I've realised the mistake I'm making is getting on an ethics treadmill , it's a huge question and knowing where to draw the line is crazy making.

I think the best analogy might be the "hedgehog in the road scenario".

If a hedgehog runs out into the road, I could just run over the critter because it's so small it's not going to damage my car. In practice I will try to steer around and avoid him if possible, but i'm not going to swerve violently , switch lanes without looking, or panic brake just to avoid squishing a hedgehog. To me, not eating meat is easy, it's gently steering around rather than a violent swerve. But I appreciate, for other people it might be different.

There was a guy I spoke to a few years ago, in his fifties, single, no family , on unemployment benefits. Some administrator decided he wasn't looking hard enough for a job, and stopped his benefits, so he couldn't afford to eat. Ended up in intensive care and nearly died. He now eats meat because he hasn't, and never will, fully recover from the near-starvation incident.

I had my lapses when I first came to Uni and decided to try my hand at vegetarianism. One of the roomates had roasted a chicken, and couldn't eat it all. Ever the thrifty student, I helped finish off the carcass, reasoning that the bird was already dead and the remanider would just be thrown in the trash. Needless to say my vegetarian housemates were not impressed, lesson learned.

Later that week, we went out clubbing and on the way home, passed a burger van. We all bought veggie burgers, but one of my friends suddenly spat his out and threw the remainder in a bin - he'd been given a beef burger by mistake.

Surely you might as well eat it now that it's bought, and the stall owner is going to restock. Ah, but it was the end of the night and it looked like he was closing up , he'd have thrown it away whether you purchased the item or not.

It's hard to have these debates at 2am when you're young and clueless and hungry. I guess that's why vegetarians just stick to the "i don't eat meat" rule, making no exceptions for roadkill, mistaken purchases, and food waste.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Liberator4EVA For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015), darknesswithin (08-26-2015)
Old 07-17-2015, 02:13 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 770
Well like you said it's better to eat less meat for the long term then to eat vegetarian for a month or two then quit.I don't eat any animal products but that Is just my personal choice. I realize most people will not go vegan I just think it's nice that there's more awareness around our food choices today.
I actually believe it's worse to eat dairy then meat but I totally get why others disagree with that and I respect their decision to eat or drink dairy. But for me, honestly If I had to decide I would eat a fat steak before I drank a cup of milk .both for ethical and health reasons I would choose the steak. I'm lucky tho I live in an area where it's beyond easy to eat vegan. I belong to a lot of vegetarian forums and I know it's difficult to switch eating habits like that and location can be a huge barrier to eating how we would like. That's why I think it's more Important to encourage others to eat as flexitarian as possible, as local as possible, and as healthy as possible and realistically that is going to look different for everyone. Perfectionism isn't helpful in these Situations.
greens is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to greens For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015), darknesswithin (08-26-2015), Ghostly (07-17-2015)
Old 07-17-2015, 03:32 PM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Groovy Dancer
 
Ghostly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The States
Posts: 4,751
Originally Posted by Liberator4EVA View Post
I dread being forced to come into the open with my choice. Eg. Work Christmas meal, everyone sat around the table waiting to be served, caterer comes up to the table, "anyone here got any special dietary requirements?" . I'm forced to raise my hand, 40 people turn and look, and the ****-taking starts.
It's too bad this has to happen. I am far from a vegetarian, but if someone is I don't give them a hard time about it. I don't care. Especially if they're not preaching, which you don't. I actually like talking to vegans / vegetarians and listening to their views.

I am a documentary nerd, and I've watched many on vegetarians / vegans. A lot I don't agree with, but many are interesting.

I've watched quite a few of Durianrider's youtube videos. I enjoy them. I'm not trying to start a debate, but its people like him that make me glad I'm not a vegan, He can be ridiculous, and when he pointed out the Robb Wolf was fat...it's that kinda stuff that's so laughable its impossible to take him serious after that. For the record, of course there are meat eaters that are just as ridiculous...so I'm not at all stating a moral high ground or anything.

I get what you mean about trying to find your own lines, whether ethical or otherwise. To further complicate your dilemma, consider things like goat milk. For instance owning your own goat for milk. I'm not suggesting you do this, that's not my point. Just saying, IMHO, its hard to find much ethically wrong with that. Now having tons of cows, locked into their contraption, not getting out, basically alive just to give milk. Honestly, how can people not have an issue with that? For full disclosure I have not had any animal milk in years, and do not plan to ever again.

Greens - Curious why you think dairy is worse than just eating meat. I'd never heard someone with that view point.
Ghostly is offline  
Old 07-17-2015, 04:30 PM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 770
Hey ghostly!
I don't like the way they're treated on factory farms and personally think it's worst treatment than cattle raised for food.
I've also lived on a lot of small farms where we raised goats and stuff like that so I Had cruelty free raw goat milk available and all that but I really disn't see a need to drink milk unless I was a breastfeeding baby. Raw milk is 100 times better for you than normal and the farming practices are fine I just can't seem to wrap my head around drinking the milk of another species. Like I get why people eat meat and in small doses it's really not that bad for you but dairy, I see no logical reason to need that.
I know that's a random thought process thats why I understand other people differences in opinion.
greens is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to greens For This Useful Post:
Ghostly (07-17-2015)
Old 07-17-2015, 04:42 PM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Groovy Dancer
 
Ghostly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The States
Posts: 4,751
^ Well you and I are pretty much in perfect agreement on that subject. I don't disagree with anything in your last post.

Like you wrote in your initial post, many people are more conscience of food choices regardless of what diet they're following. You and I are on fairly opposite ends of the diet spectrum, yet there's so much we agree on.
Ghostly is offline  
Old 07-17-2015, 04:51 PM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
The article i linked at the end of my OP did have some helpful numbers actually.

So, to keep producing milk, a cow must have a calf every year which must then be disposed of. The article states that the cow is only kept in production for 5 years typically, so for 1 slaughtered cow and 5 slaughtered calves you get 17 and a half million calories worth of milk. A slaughtered bull only yields 400,000. Therefore, Milk yields about 3 million calories per dead animal vs 400k.

Of course, we also need to take into account milk's lower protein content vs steak. You'd need to drink a greater number of calories in milk, to meet your RDA, than you would in steak.

Even so, the numbers come out in favour of milk by about 3 and a half to one.

Also, we're not talking about the number of meat eaters that are fed by that slaughtered cow and 5 calves. If there was no dairy industry but the same number of meat eaters in the world, you'd need to kill a lot more pigs to satisfy the demand for red meat.

If the whole world went vegetarian and the unwanted bovines were just getting dumped in landfill, then that does change the equation somewhat. However in such a world I imagine it'd be a lot easier to be a vegan, because animal-free convenience foods would be everywhere.


I do pay extra for "organic" milk, whatever that means. Hopefully the animals are kept in better conditions. That's about all i can do, i don't have any control over how the milk is sourced for the yoghurts etc. i eat.

Eggs honestly look worse than diary, given how unnatural these giant farms are for chickens, and the fact that it takes 71 hens to make the same protein output in eggs as one cow makes in milk.

I've always been able to take or leave eggs. I've never had them on my grocery list, but obviously they're a minor ingredient in a lot of processed foods, including that Quorn mince I so depend on.

As regards keeping your own goat, I don't feel that's a realistic proposition for many people in our overcrowded little country, most of us will never be able to afford a plot of land big enough. Keeping your own chickens though, is possibility if you live out in the country.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Liberator4EVA For This Useful Post:
greens (07-17-2015)
Old 08-01-2015, 11:35 AM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
FLCamper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
I've been a vegetarian since I was very young - I grew up in a rural area and saw the cows and pigs slaughtered. It was traumatic.
I am not vegan - I don't drink much milk but eat cheese and eggs. I always buy the free range chicken eggs.
I'm an ultra runner and triathlete so getting enough protein takes a little more consideration but it is definitely doable on a vegetarian diet.
I've noticed, too, Liberator, that when ordering in a group setting, I get some looks from my fellow diners when I order a vegetarian meal but not usually in a negative way.
FLCamper is offline  
Old 08-02-2015, 12:39 AM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
Hawk07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: US
Posts: 524
The mainstream dairy industry is just as bad if not worse than the meat industry. There is far more suffering inflicted on the animals forced to live and be abused in deplorable conditions for a longer period of time to produce maximum product (eggs and milk). I am not speaking of all farms but the mainstream factory farms from which the majority of the eggs and milk sold in stores comes from. These factories will also use labels such as 'free range' or 'cage free' to trick people into thinking they are buying eggs or milk from happier animals when in reality these labels mean nothing. Sadly the use of these labels are not regulated by laws or standards for the animals welfare and often just mean the likes of birds that are not 'caged' but crammed by the thousands on the floor of a large factory warehouse never seeing the light of day. This link by the humane society sheds more light on this;
http://m.humanesociety.org/issues/co...gg_labels.html

Health wise when you really think about it drinking milk from another species, particularly one that weighs nearly a ton makes absolutely no sense. The milk produced by an animal of that size is meant to nourish an animal that will grow to be that size. Also, we are the only species to drink the milk of an entirely different species and what's even more crazy is that we are the only species to continue to drink milk at all well into adulthood. There is something wrong with that. It's not surprising the number of people who are lactose intolerant.

Anyway I'm sorry if I sound like I'm on a rant and I don't mean to sound judgmental of others . I've been a vegetarian and also a vegan in the past and try to do my best to educate myself on the welfare of animals in the food industry. What I have read and seen on it is truly upsetting and heartbreaking to me. But I can definitely relate to others who struggled to remain optimally healthy on a vegan/vegetarian diet.

Today I eat mostly plant based but buy just enough eggs and meat from small local organic farms to keep me feeling healthy. Sure it's 3 times more expensive but that just means I buy less often. Someone mentioned if only the vast majority of people could cut back on their meat consumption instead of a few going completely vegan and I agree 100% with that. I don't think we need to be eating nearly as much animal products as we do. If the huge demand for meat and dairy went down perhaps we wouldn't need these monstrous inhumane factory farms to keep up with it.
Hawk07 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hawk07 For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015), greens (08-02-2015)
Old 08-02-2015, 08:22 PM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
FLCamper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
Do you all eat honey?
FLCamper is offline  
Old 08-02-2015, 11:36 PM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by FLCamper View Post
Do you all eat honey?
Personally, I don't. Durianrider argues that it's not vegan and I don't really miss it (maple syrup tastes about the same to me). The non-vegan stuff in my diet is the milk, yoghurt and egg-white used as a binder in Quorn products.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:22 AM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by Hawk07 View Post
The mainstream dairy industry is just as bad if not worse than the meat industry. There is far more suffering inflicted on the animals forced to live and be abused in deplorable conditions for a longer period of time to produce maximum product (eggs and milk).
For sure, if you're going to consume any animal products at all, then the conditions in which the animals are kept and killed matters far more than what the product actually is, or even perhaps how much of it you consume.

Your argument is very much the counterpoint to mine in the meat vs dairy debate. Mine is that the dairy cow gets to live 5 years before being killed, and that it's less animal deaths to feed the same number of people. Yours is that since the conditions are inhumane, the fact they are kept alive longer than a beef steer is a negative thing, it is better to be put out of their misery as soon as they finish growing.

It seems people's attitudes in this debate tracks quite closely to how they feel about milk per se. I like the taste and I don't think there's any limit on how much I'd get through if i didn't stop myself. It's not very thirst quenching and has quite a lot of calories after all. The anti-dairy posters all dislike milk to start with.

Originally Posted by Hawk07 View Post
Health wise when you really think about it drinking milk from another species, particularly one that weighs nearly a ton makes absolutely no sense. The milk produced by an animal of that size is meant to nourish an animal that will grow to be that size. Also, we are the only species to drink the milk of an entirely different species and what's even more crazy is that we are the only species to continue to drink milk at all well into adulthood. There is something wrong with that. It's not surprising the number of people who are lactose intolerant.
Humanity acquired a genetic mutation around the time it adopted agriculture enabling most of us to become lactose tolerant. If you don't have this mutation, you can't eat dairy.

I think people's attitudes also track with their experience of livestock farming. I don't know if practices differ much between UK and America. When I was a kid, I had some relatives that lived on a dairy farm who i'd visit often, go play in the farm buildings etc. The cows just seemed to spend most of their day chilling in a field, once a day they get herded in to be milked then they go back to making faces at passers-by. Subsidies from the EU common agricultural policy have probably enabled a lot of smaller farms to survive - the subsidy is like 30% of the industry's total revenue. The downside is that it's a form of trade protectionism that stops developing countries being able to earn much needed income by selling us their food. It also means that England has very little natural landscape left. It has very high population density compared to the US and every little scrap of ground fitting in between our urban sprawl is covered in farmland. Even the least fertile land is still worked because of the subsidy.*

All this could be under threat because the big three supermarket chains have conspired to screw the price of milk down so low - it is now cheaper than bottled water or petrol. In fact per litre it is the cheapest drink you can buy. Potentially this could force smaller dairy farmers out of business.


Originally Posted by Hawk07 View Post

Someone mentioned if only the vast majority of people could cut back on their meat consumption instead of a few going completely vegan and I agree 100% with that. I don't think we need to be eating nearly as much animal products as we do. If the huge demand for meat and dairy went down perhaps we wouldn't need these monstrous inhumane factory farms to keep up with it.
Yeah that was in my OP. I'm not convinced though, that reduced demand for meat and dairy would automatically lead to better conditions. It would probably just lead to there being a smaller number of farms, but they would remain "monstrous, inhumane factory farms" due to economies of scale and these being the absolute cheapest way to make the product. You know, capitalism. Legislation might make a difference.




** This does bother me. There is literally nowhere i can pedal my bike to, certainly within 50 miles of my house, but probably not until you reach the Kielder forest national park on the scottish border, where you are not within sight of a built up area - or a farm. There's a few handkerchief sized woodlands scattered about - most of which were planted recently and are being harvested for wood, with low biodiversity. Even the peak district national park, the southern end of the line of hills running up the spine of England, uses the rugged higher slopes for sheep grazing, and the hiking trails are so busy it's like being on a high street. Trees simply never get a chance to grow.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Liberator4EVA For This Useful Post:
advbike (08-10-2015)
Old 08-03-2015, 12:45 AM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by Hawk07 View Post
Today I eat mostly plant based but buy just enough eggs and meat from small local organic farms to keep me feeling healthy. Sure it's 3 times more expensive but that just means I buy less often.

What it all comes down to, i guess there's two main things stopping me going full vegan

1) Where to get a guaranteed 50g a day of protein, no matter how bad my diet. The easy fallback of drink some milk, eat some yoghurts, or have some Quorn mince, is gone. Most of us eat far more protein than is good for us, but what I remember is that dairy proteins contain all the essential amino acids, whereas no single plant product does, so you have to mix and match and - shock horror - cook something, to get a good mix.

Now what i do remember, from school biology lessons, is that beans and pulses contain one half of the essential amino acids and grains contain the other half.

Now , on a working day I often have a can of Heinz baked beans in tomato sauce (yeah, i know tons of added sugar and salt) as a bedtime snack after cycling home from work. That's 20g protein from "beans and pulses".

At work, canteen breakfast is normally 4 slices of wholemeal bread toasted, no butter or margarine, with marmalade or jam. I usually have another couple slices bread with soup for the afternoon break. So, 6 slices of bread = 24g protein "from grains" . Leaving only 6g to come from the trace amounts found in other stuff i eat, so i'm good to go right?

2) I really like yoghurts.

I've given up a lot of high fat junk foods this year. Crisps, cheese, chocolate all gone, not eaten take away meals or cakes for years. One of the few indulgences i have left is yoghurts. I really like the taste of low fat yoghurts and they're healthy too - well, unless you're Dr Robert Lustig. It's a lot to give up, cutting out the yogs.

What i will try doing, is not buying any Quorn products on my working days, since the above math shows that i don't need it. I'll also only eat yoghurts as an indulgence, rather than in an effort to bump up my protein intake.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
Old 08-26-2015, 01:00 AM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 25
I thought I'd weigh in here...

I've been a vegetarian most of my life (my parents converted when I was really young). I don't remember eating meat, fish, or eggs. I was raised eating dairy though. I started eating eggs as an adult but they kind of gross me out so I mostly leave them out of my diet (unless they're in something, or the 1x a year I want an omelette). As far as I'm concerned, it's not really important what one eats once or twice a year. The choices we make every single day make the most impact. So eggs once a year? Sure.

Now when it comes to dairy - I've realized for a long time that there are many issues with the dairy industry. I don't need to repeat everything as you all did a pretty good job covering the bases on this one. A few years ago I decided to stop purchasing dairy at the grocery store but to accept it if I was eating out. I switched to almond milk for coffee and cereal, margarine (in super moderation), and just stopped buying cheese (no replacement). Yogurt was the thing I missed the most so I really sympathize with you.

I'm currently living in a foreign country, however, and being a vegetarian is extremely difficult. But because meat doesn't even seem like food to me there's no way to just eat it in moderation. This means I'm a social outcast and have a lot of trouble eating out. Grocery stores are difficult too, because although I'm learning the language, I still can't always read the ingredients. This has had 2 effects in my life. First, I say to hell with not eating dairy, I do what I can to survive at all. Fortunately I just use a splash of milk in my coffee and yogurt with my breakfast (still no cheese or butter). Secondly, I am pretty much forced into cooking at home every day. This has been a real blessing for me. Even when I don't want to cook I really have no choice (ok, sometimes I just make peanut butter sandwiches...). However - because I have been a vegetarian from a young age, I don't ever even think of protein or balancing meals. I just cook and eat. I've never ever had any problems. Back when I was a teen doctors would find out I was a vegetarian and immediately order blood tests assuming I'd be anemic, or deficient in vitamin XYZ, but I've always managed to get enough of what I need without over thinking it.

I don't really know what my point is. I guess if you can manage to cook most meals at home and throw in the occasional protein (beans/legumes/tofu/nuts) you'll probably be ok. And I definitely agree with you that reduction of meat/dairy intake from more people is better than fewer people becoming fully vegetarian or vegan. When I started purposefully not buying dairy I realized that most of the meals I made as a vegetarian were "accidentally" vegan anyway. I don't know if I'll ever go full vegan, but I still think reducing my dairy makes some sort of impact.

How have your efforts been going anyway, Liberator?
darknesswithin is offline  
Old 08-26-2015, 04:53 AM
  # 16 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Liberator4EVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Nottingham UK
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by darknesswithin View Post
How have your efforts been going anyway, Liberator?
I've probably eaten less yoghurts since making that post but i still eat a lot by most people's standards. As sweet tasting, convenient desserts with pretty good "macros" they're hard to replace. Fruit is also good, but it's nice to have another option, especially at work when the availability of the good stuff is poor. Probably still getting through 6 x 60g pots a day when working (!) but keep it down to just one or two a week at home.

I'm eating less protein generally, after realising that beans on toast covers most bases. Still, Quorn "ham" is about the only thing i can think of that goes with salad + sweet chilli sauce. I suppose i could stop being so lazy and make a potato, mint and pea salad.

After reading about the TTIP negotiations, i wonder if EU agriculture is more heavily regulated (and subsidised, and protected) than elsewhere. TTIP in theory puts this under threat, but with milk being a perishable product and all, are we really going to see fleets of ex-USAF KC-135 tankers importing cheap milk across the atlantic? Well maybe if the oil price keeps falling.
Liberator4EVA is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Liberator4EVA For This Useful Post:
darknesswithin (08-27-2015)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:17 AM.