Help me understand
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
Help me understand
My brother is a long term alcoholic. Our family (nuclear and extended) have an intrenched denial system. Lots of addicts, lots of excuses. I hardly drank in my early adulthood for fear of becoming addicted, but when my sister was killed on 9/11 I started drinking heavily and eventually became addicted. I am in recovery now.
Back to my brother... never has admitted to being an alcoholic. He has lost pretty much everything...wives, jobs, health. Early on (he was an alcoholic in his 20s, now 60) I tried to help him, to no avail. We have had a difficult relationship most of our lives. I finally have accepted the fact that I cannot help him and I cannot abide his abusive behavior anymore. I worry about him, but I've had to go no contact recently.
He has 4 kids. I have tried to be in their lives as much as possible, but I live in Texas and they in New England, so it was hard just due to distance. Now every one of his kids have also gone no contact with me! I don't understand this. I was not invited to my niece's wedding last summer and my nephew is getting married in the spring and I probably won't be invited to that either. No one accepts my calls or if I leave voicemail returns my calls. Emails go unanswered, except for my niece who wrote me this unbelievable scathing email awhile back claiming that I was a lousy aunt to her. Her aunt on her mother's side lives very close and has very deep pockets. I could not afford trips to Disneyland every year like her other aunt provided. She even bought my niece a new car for graduation. So I am a lousy aunt.
I feel like my brother has "poisoned" these kids (adults really) against me. It is very hurtful. I would like to hear others experience with this... am I not seeing things clearly here? I have never been hateful or mean with the kids...in fact, I have always felt sorry for them being raised by an alcoholic. I've visited and sent cards etc. Tried to be a good influence.
Back to my brother... never has admitted to being an alcoholic. He has lost pretty much everything...wives, jobs, health. Early on (he was an alcoholic in his 20s, now 60) I tried to help him, to no avail. We have had a difficult relationship most of our lives. I finally have accepted the fact that I cannot help him and I cannot abide his abusive behavior anymore. I worry about him, but I've had to go no contact recently.
He has 4 kids. I have tried to be in their lives as much as possible, but I live in Texas and they in New England, so it was hard just due to distance. Now every one of his kids have also gone no contact with me! I don't understand this. I was not invited to my niece's wedding last summer and my nephew is getting married in the spring and I probably won't be invited to that either. No one accepts my calls or if I leave voicemail returns my calls. Emails go unanswered, except for my niece who wrote me this unbelievable scathing email awhile back claiming that I was a lousy aunt to her. Her aunt on her mother's side lives very close and has very deep pockets. I could not afford trips to Disneyland every year like her other aunt provided. She even bought my niece a new car for graduation. So I am a lousy aunt.
I feel like my brother has "poisoned" these kids (adults really) against me. It is very hurtful. I would like to hear others experience with this... am I not seeing things clearly here? I have never been hateful or mean with the kids...in fact, I have always felt sorry for them being raised by an alcoholic. I've visited and sent cards etc. Tried to be a good influence.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 1,426
Dear Artfriend,
It's not you, you sound and describe yourself as a concerned loving aunt and sister.
My money's on that AV doing the talking and deciding.
Your pain is REAL and we all feel it thru your words...you are handling this gracefully
and in the best way you know how.
Perhaps it's the distance? The competition between aunts should not exist, but in the
world of addiction, anything can happen.
You are cared about here...your SR family!
You matter to us!
TF
It's not you, you sound and describe yourself as a concerned loving aunt and sister.
My money's on that AV doing the talking and deciding.
Your pain is REAL and we all feel it thru your words...you are handling this gracefully
and in the best way you know how.
Perhaps it's the distance? The competition between aunts should not exist, but in the
world of addiction, anything can happen.
You are cared about here...your SR family!
You matter to us!TF
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 1,426
Dear Artfriend,
Yes addiction is very very sick and sad. I hate it and what it does to families, especially family member who don't understand its a disease.
Your 4 nieces/nephews will come around as time goes by and as they mature and start
their own families, God willing. They are being loyal to their dad.
Your brother says one thing, the kids heart says another. All you can do now is stay
positive (which is difficult when you're hurting).
Talking to someone in active addiction is like talking to the air. They will hear what they
want to and disregard the rest. I'd give it time. And give yourself a break.
Good thoughts coming your way from us freezing mommas in WI
TF
Yes addiction is very very sick and sad. I hate it and what it does to families, especially family member who don't understand its a disease.
Your 4 nieces/nephews will come around as time goes by and as they mature and start
their own families, God willing. They are being loyal to their dad.
Your brother says one thing, the kids heart says another. All you can do now is stay
positive (which is difficult when you're hurting).
Talking to someone in active addiction is like talking to the air. They will hear what they
want to and disregard the rest. I'd give it time. And give yourself a break.
Good thoughts coming your way from us freezing mommas in WI
TF
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,681
I was the first one in my family to break out of the crazy dysfunction.
I have not been popular. They are still doing what they've always done and
they all still think I'm wrong about everything.
I've had to move on without my family and separate myself from all of them (siblings).
It hurts, but the only way to fix it is to fit into all of that. I tried to hold on for a long time, but it got so bad I couldn't go back to lala land.
I know too much to do that now.
I have not been popular. They are still doing what they've always done and
they all still think I'm wrong about everything.
I've had to move on without my family and separate myself from all of them (siblings).
It hurts, but the only way to fix it is to fit into all of that. I tried to hold on for a long time, but it got so bad I couldn't go back to lala land.
I know too much to do that now.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
There is a similar level of lies, tall tales, and dysfunction in my husband's (and now my) extended family. Some members don't talk to my husband and I because of whatever story one person is still telling them. Alcoholics all of them.
It breaks my heart, too, that the younger generation won't speak to us, but we have learned to let that go. It isn't easy, but we had to for our own sanity and peace of mind. Our worrying and stressing about it did nothing to affect them or their behavior, it only destroyed our peace. Oh....and some in this younger generation also seem primarily motivated by who can provide them with money to put on a good and flashy show.
I'm really sorry for how painful this has been for you, and I hope that your nieces and nephews will come around some day!
It breaks my heart, too, that the younger generation won't speak to us, but we have learned to let that go. It isn't easy, but we had to for our own sanity and peace of mind. Our worrying and stressing about it did nothing to affect them or their behavior, it only destroyed our peace. Oh....and some in this younger generation also seem primarily motivated by who can provide them with money to put on a good and flashy show.
I'm really sorry for how painful this has been for you, and I hope that your nieces and nephews will come around some day!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,805
My sister and I recently contacted our aunts on both side of the family to be honest to them about our AM. My mom had isolated us for years from the extended family, always angry at everybody for any and all real or imagined slights. It felt so good to get the truth out, but it took a long time for us to do this. Emotional abusers require a lot of loyalty. I was fearful and brainwashed concerning the extended family formany, many years. Please don't personalize this. They will come around!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
I can hear your pain and am sorry you're going through this. Ostracism and shaming work and that's why they're used in various cults and cliques to make people fall in line. Many will fall in line to relieve the pain of such manipulative tactics. Those of us who have developed a healthy mindset will recognize them for what they are... a form of emotional blackmail. Though family members carrying resentments and grudges may not be manipulating to the same ends, the affects on us are the same. I've been through it and continue going through it. At one point, I had to ask myself this: If these people were not family, would they be the kinds of people I would want to rub elbows with? Are they people I feel comfortable around or I fit in with? The answer was "NO!" We're so acculturated and indoctrinated with "blood is thicker than water" stuff and the fantasy, really, of the loving, Waltons-type, family that we feel bad admitting that these are not people whose lead we would want to follow nor individuals whose behaviors we admire or respect. We simply don't share the same values. We can't change them and we don't want to become like them. So punt. I just had to accept that if these people were neighbors I really wouldn't have anything to do with them. And, ya know what? They feel the same way about me and the reasons don't matter. What matters is having peace and joy in my life. That means my family won't, necessarily, be blood. As far as "blood" goes, its not a factor in who I choose to have in my life. I don't judge or build resentments toward people I'm not like as that would only hurt me. Would I be there in a heartbeat if they needed help... you bet... but I would be for my neighbor too so that's got nothing to do with being "blood."
What hurts me every freakin time is my own expectations... my own "shoulds and supposed too's." Just because people grow up together, share the same parents, give birth to someone or raise someone doesn't mean their personalities are going to click. It doesn't mean there's going to be love either. Spiritual leaders are still trying to teach people to love and have been, seemingly, from the beginning. Why? Because its hard for many and maybe even the majority and some just never learn how to do it. Personally, I don't want people in my life who have a hard time with it. I want people around me who have learned how to or are at least trying to. I want spiritual people around me. I want people around me, mainly, who don't judge as that's what prevents love. If they're family... well, that's just a bonus... not a requirement any more than its a requirement of family to love me.
Don't get me wrong here... I didn't get here over night. It was an extremely hard path. I shed many tears and still do at times but realized that something had to give or I would just be leading a miserable life filled with pain all the time. The Serenity Prayer, finally, sunk in. I had to accept what I couldn't change. This hardship was on my Path to Peace. I had to accept this broken world as it is instead of how I would have it be. I had to trust that everything is exactly as its supposed to be. They are walking their paths and I'm walking mine. Each path is just as hard as the other. My path requires that I love them from a distance. I would not trade the one I walk for the one they do.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
What hurts me every freakin time is my own expectations... my own "shoulds and supposed too's." Just because people grow up together, share the same parents, give birth to someone or raise someone doesn't mean their personalities are going to click. It doesn't mean there's going to be love either. Spiritual leaders are still trying to teach people to love and have been, seemingly, from the beginning. Why? Because its hard for many and maybe even the majority and some just never learn how to do it. Personally, I don't want people in my life who have a hard time with it. I want people around me who have learned how to or are at least trying to. I want spiritual people around me. I want people around me, mainly, who don't judge as that's what prevents love. If they're family... well, that's just a bonus... not a requirement any more than its a requirement of family to love me.
Don't get me wrong here... I didn't get here over night. It was an extremely hard path. I shed many tears and still do at times but realized that something had to give or I would just be leading a miserable life filled with pain all the time. The Serenity Prayer, finally, sunk in. I had to accept what I couldn't change. This hardship was on my Path to Peace. I had to accept this broken world as it is instead of how I would have it be. I had to trust that everything is exactly as its supposed to be. They are walking their paths and I'm walking mine. Each path is just as hard as the other. My path requires that I love them from a distance. I would not trade the one I walk for the one they do.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 120,872
Originally Posted by Turtle82 
I can hear your pain and am sorry you're going through this. Ostracism and shaming work and that's why they're used in various cults and cliques to make people fall in line. Many will fall in line to relieve the pain of such manipulative tactics. Those of us who have developed a healthy mindset will recognize them for what they are... a form of emotional blackmail. Though family members carrying resentments and grudges may not be manipulating to the same ends, the affects on us are the same. I've been through it and continue going through it. At one point, I had to ask myself this: If these people were not family, would they be the kinds of people I would want to rub elbows with? Are they people I feel comfortable around or I fit in with? The answer was "NO!" We're so acculturated and indoctrinated with "blood is thicker than water" stuff and the fantasy, really, of the loving, Waltons-type, family that we feel bad admitting that these are not people whose lead we would want to follow nor individuals whose behaviors we admire or respect. We simply don't share the same values. We can't change them and we don't want to become like them. So punt. I just had to accept that if these people were neighbors I really wouldn't have anything to do with them. And, ya know what? They feel the same way about me and the reasons don't matter. What matters is having peace and joy in my life. That means my family won't, necessarily, be blood. As far as "blood" goes, its not a factor in who I choose to have in my life. I don't judge or build resentments toward people I'm not like as that would only hurt me. Would I be there in a heartbeat if they needed help... you bet... but I would be for my neighbor too so that's got nothing to do with being "blood."
What hurts me every freakin time is my own expectations... my own "shoulds and supposed too's." Just because people grow up together, share the same parents, give birth to someone or raise someone doesn't mean their personalities are going to click. It doesn't mean there's going to be love either. Spiritual leaders are still trying to teach people to love and have been, seemingly, from the beginning. Why? Because its hard for many and maybe even the majority and some just never learn how to do it. Personally, I don't want people in my life who have a hard time with it. I want people around me who have learned how to or are at least trying to. I want spiritual people around me. I want people around me, mainly, who don't judge as that's what prevents love. If they're family... well, that's just a bonus... not a requirement any more than its a requirement of family to love me.
Don't get me wrong here... I didn't get here over night. It was an extremely hard path. I shed many tears and still do at times but realized that something had to give or I would just be leading a miserable life filled with pain all the time. The Serenity Prayer, finally, sunk in. I had to accept what I couldn't change. This hardship was on my Path to Peace. I had to accept this broken world as it is instead of how I would have it be. I had to trust that everything is exactly as its supposed to be. They are walking their paths and I'm walking mine. Each path is just as hard as the other. My path requires that I love them from a distance. I would not trade the one I walk for the one they do.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
What hurts me every freakin time is my own expectations... my own "shoulds and supposed too's." Just because people grow up together, share the same parents, give birth to someone or raise someone doesn't mean their personalities are going to click. It doesn't mean there's going to be love either. Spiritual leaders are still trying to teach people to love and have been, seemingly, from the beginning. Why? Because its hard for many and maybe even the majority and some just never learn how to do it. Personally, I don't want people in my life who have a hard time with it. I want people around me who have learned how to or are at least trying to. I want spiritual people around me. I want people around me, mainly, who don't judge as that's what prevents love. If they're family... well, that's just a bonus... not a requirement any more than its a requirement of family to love me.
Don't get me wrong here... I didn't get here over night. It was an extremely hard path. I shed many tears and still do at times but realized that something had to give or I would just be leading a miserable life filled with pain all the time. The Serenity Prayer, finally, sunk in. I had to accept what I couldn't change. This hardship was on my Path to Peace. I had to accept this broken world as it is instead of how I would have it be. I had to trust that everything is exactly as its supposed to be. They are walking their paths and I'm walking mine. Each path is just as hard as the other. My path requires that I love them from a distance. I would not trade the one I walk for the one they do.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
I think it has to do with being raised by a selfish, self centered person.
My mother is not an alcoholic but she is a narcissist. I thought the way she behaved was normal. That included everything. The way she was as woman, a friend, a wife, a mother. The things she said and did. Everything. I never knew unconditional love, I thought there was conditions to everything and everybody was like that. She was my example, the only example I had. I never knew any different. It seemed different for others but I could never place my finger on why.
I grew up and carried on many of those selfish behaviors. I thought I was suppose to control everything. I thought it was my way or the highway, even if I was the one leaving all the time. It never felt right, inside, but I didn't know how else to act or behave. It was all I knew.
It was not until I got sober and was around woman that were not like that. They gave me unconditional love for the first time and I learned how to do the same with others, specifically my own children. They showed me what a real friend was. Their examples taught me what a woman was, a mother, a wife..a lady.
If the kids were raised in an environment of selfish and self seeking behavior, then that is all they know. They think that is normal and the way life should be lived.
Unfortunately there is not much you can do about that. They will live there life that way and the hardest part is they will pass that down to their children as well.
My mother is not an alcoholic but she is a narcissist. I thought the way she behaved was normal. That included everything. The way she was as woman, a friend, a wife, a mother. The things she said and did. Everything. I never knew unconditional love, I thought there was conditions to everything and everybody was like that. She was my example, the only example I had. I never knew any different. It seemed different for others but I could never place my finger on why.
I grew up and carried on many of those selfish behaviors. I thought I was suppose to control everything. I thought it was my way or the highway, even if I was the one leaving all the time. It never felt right, inside, but I didn't know how else to act or behave. It was all I knew.
It was not until I got sober and was around woman that were not like that. They gave me unconditional love for the first time and I learned how to do the same with others, specifically my own children. They showed me what a real friend was. Their examples taught me what a woman was, a mother, a wife..a lady.
If the kids were raised in an environment of selfish and self seeking behavior, then that is all they know. They think that is normal and the way life should be lived.
Unfortunately there is not much you can do about that. They will live there life that way and the hardest part is they will pass that down to their children as well.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
Originally Posted by Turtle82
I can hear your pain and am sorry you're going through this. Ostracism and shaming work and that's why they're used in various cults and cliques to make people fall in line. Many will fall in line to relieve the pain of such manipulative tactics. Those of us who have developed a healthy mindset will recognize them for what they are... a form of emotional blackmail. Though family members carrying resentments and grudges may not be manipulating to the same ends, the affects on us are the same.
Originally Posted by Turtle82
I've been through it and continue going through it. At one point, I had to ask myself this: If these people were not family, would they be the kinds of people I would want to rub elbows with? Are they people I feel comfortable around or I fit in with? The answer was "NO!" We're so acculturated and indoctrinated with "blood is thicker than water" stuff and the fantasy, really, of the loving, Waltons-type, family that we feel bad admitting that these are not people whose lead we would want to follow nor individuals whose behaviors we admire or respect. We simply don't share the same values. We can't change them and we don't want to become like them. So punt. I just had to accept that if these people were neighbors I really wouldn't have anything to do with them. And, ya know what? They feel the same way about me and the reasons don't matter.
Originally Posted by Turtle82
What matters is having peace and joy in my life. That means my family won't, necessarily, be blood. As far as "blood" goes, its not a factor in who I choose to have in my life. I don't judge or build resentments toward people I'm not like as that would only hurt me. Would I be there in a heartbeat if they needed help... you bet... but I would be for my neighbor too so that's got nothing to do with being "blood."
Originally Posted by Turtle82
What hurts me every freakin time is my own expectations... my own "shoulds and supposed too's." Just because people grow up together, share the same parents, give birth to someone or raise someone doesn't mean their personalities are going to click. It doesn't mean there's going to be love either. Spiritual leaders are still trying to teach people to love and have been, seemingly, from the beginning. Why? Because its hard for many and maybe even the majority and some just never learn how to do it. Personally, I don't want people in my life who have a hard time with it. I want people around me who have learned how to or are at least trying to. I want spiritual people around me. I want people around me, mainly, who don't judge as that's what prevents love. If they're family... well, that's just a bonus... not a requirement any more than its a requirement of family to love me.
Originally Posted by Turtle82
Don't get me wrong here... I didn't get here over night. It was an extremely hard path. I shed many tears and still do at times but realized that something had to give or I would just be leading a miserable life filled with pain all the time. The Serenity Prayer, finally, sunk in. I had to accept what I couldn't change. This hardship was on my Path to Peace. I had to accept this broken world as it is instead of how I would have it be. I had to trust that everything is exactly as its supposed to be. They are walking their paths and I'm walking mine. Each path is just as hard as the other. My path requires that I love them from a distance. I would not trade the one I walk for the one they do.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
I hope something I've said helps Artfriend. I hope your sorrow passes gently. I hope you find some resolution and your grieving happens less frequently. I doubt it will ever go away entirely, though I wish it would, as mine hasn't but each time it hits me, I remind myself of what I've posted here.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 923
Relate to every post here...the past 15 years have been very hard...but there was no going back once I woke up to my own dysfunction (when my oldest daughter starting using drugs and I tried to figure out why...took a while but I did wake up).
My mother is a narcissist and also drinks...it was very very hard to break free and she can still stir things up within me without even trying as I was born and raised to 'take care of her'...and if there is such a thing as a silver lining in addiction...if I hadn't gone through my 3 daughters (1 still in it and very heavily) using...I would never have waked up to the fact that it wasn't just my husband's father who was an alcoholic (he was one that you had to love and accept because he was so out there and in Chile, So America...it is far more accepted than here...doesn't even raise an eyebrow. The awakening...is this what they call the spiritual awakening was very harsh and hard...and I have been working on my own recovery as a codependent since...I have no family of origin...it is very hard...I relate to Morning Glory...but I also know that what twofish says is right...as well as all others...even if we are shamed and guilted and shunned...turtle used even better words...we truly didn't cause it, can't control it or cure it in others...and the only people we can change are ourselves. Now...I am in a deeper phase of 'it' than even 5 years ago...and it has been and is extremely painful. I am actually trying to do what has been suggested which is just focus on what day at a time...because I know enough now that my 'what iffing' is more terrifying than it was before this addict..but no longer focused on family of origin...rather on immediate family and adult kids and realizing that my dreams and illusions were just that...dreams and illusions and that (it seems to me...but don't know for sure) that to continue breaking out of my dysfunction, I need to be willing to allow them their choices and their own lives...and I guess we get to face what we get to face when we are ready.
I am in a place where everything I believed could be true...that I could make a difference with my own children if I worked hard enough on my own recovery...needs to be re-interpreted...I can work on my own recovery...and I think for now...I am coming to realize it is a period...and they can do what they are going to do...and because I went through so much pain in the family of origin stuff...I have been fighting and resisting the immediate family stuff...but it doesn't matter...it is still there and I still have no control over it...so am just trying to continue focusing on me and my own recovery.
It makes me feel very sad if and when I focus too much on it.
My mother is a narcissist and also drinks...it was very very hard to break free and she can still stir things up within me without even trying as I was born and raised to 'take care of her'...and if there is such a thing as a silver lining in addiction...if I hadn't gone through my 3 daughters (1 still in it and very heavily) using...I would never have waked up to the fact that it wasn't just my husband's father who was an alcoholic (he was one that you had to love and accept because he was so out there and in Chile, So America...it is far more accepted than here...doesn't even raise an eyebrow. The awakening...is this what they call the spiritual awakening was very harsh and hard...and I have been working on my own recovery as a codependent since...I have no family of origin...it is very hard...I relate to Morning Glory...but I also know that what twofish says is right...as well as all others...even if we are shamed and guilted and shunned...turtle used even better words...we truly didn't cause it, can't control it or cure it in others...and the only people we can change are ourselves. Now...I am in a deeper phase of 'it' than even 5 years ago...and it has been and is extremely painful. I am actually trying to do what has been suggested which is just focus on what day at a time...because I know enough now that my 'what iffing' is more terrifying than it was before this addict..but no longer focused on family of origin...rather on immediate family and adult kids and realizing that my dreams and illusions were just that...dreams and illusions and that (it seems to me...but don't know for sure) that to continue breaking out of my dysfunction, I need to be willing to allow them their choices and their own lives...and I guess we get to face what we get to face when we are ready.
I am in a place where everything I believed could be true...that I could make a difference with my own children if I worked hard enough on my own recovery...needs to be re-interpreted...I can work on my own recovery...and I think for now...I am coming to realize it is a period...and they can do what they are going to do...and because I went through so much pain in the family of origin stuff...I have been fighting and resisting the immediate family stuff...but it doesn't matter...it is still there and I still have no control over it...so am just trying to continue focusing on me and my own recovery.
It makes me feel very sad if and when I focus too much on it.
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