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Old 04-16-2018, 05:27 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Yes, there are Scriptures to support it—but then, there are also Scriptures to refute it.

It is by no means a universally agreed-upon doctrine. Brilliant scholars see this issue drastically differently.

I myself see it as an issue that is secondary in importance—in other words, not any kind of litmus test of salvation.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:31 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Support Scriptures: Romans 9:6-24.

If you look at the context, you see that the main point that Paul was making is that just because someone is a circumcised descendant of Abraham does not make him one of God’s people; in fact, many Gentiles too have been called to be among God’s “chosen people.” The Romans were apparently doubting their ability to be “real,” and complete in God’s eyes.

With the predestination talk, Paul is emphasizing that God is not bound to a formula—he can choose anyone he wants to choose as his elect.
Ephesians 1:3-12.

Paul is highlighting the fact that believers are richly blessed. The inference is that God was so eager to bless his people that he arranged it before the foundation of the world.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:37 AM   #63 (permalink)
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TS, Calvin was a huge influence back in the day. He certainly believed his slant on it. There are still a lot of Calvinists out there.

There are many eschatologists who agree that his beliefs are supported by scripture. There are many who don't. So many rifts in traditional, "churches," and so many differing interpretations. Did you go through that stuff about TULIP? Of course the Calvinists believe it.

You would probably think my beliefs are out there, but I feel I can support them by scripture.

I don't think arguing eschatology is particularly interesting nor productive. It creates fissures and divisions and that is not the purpose of the Gospel. The Gospel is a very simple gift.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:05 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Scriptures that refute the “L” in TULIP:

Limited atonement: Christ’s atonement on the cross was effective only for the elect; it was never designed to be effective for those who were predestined to damnation.

1 Timothy 2:1-4:

Paul instructed Timothy to get his congregation to pray for “all people,” because God our Savior “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

1 John 2:1-2:

“He (Jesus Christ the righteous) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Calvinists explain this as the whole geographical world—all nations and every type of people who are among the elect, not every single person in the world.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:09 AM   #65 (permalink)
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As Bim says, too much quibbling between believers can take our eyes off of Christ and stifle the love we should be expressing toward one another.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:28 AM   #66 (permalink)
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is there scripture to support his claims?
I doubt if you can get Bub to give you any Scripture. Seems all he is doing is spewing out anti-Christian crap (others have also joined in, didn't used to be this way on this thread, we are under attack). There is no middle of the road, you cannot serve two masters, he who is not for us is against us. He is working for the Enemy, ole Slew Foot the Devil himself. Be careful not to be sucked in. The answer to all of this discussion is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified...plain and simple.

It is a challenge to have these outsiders post here. I remember one time years ago when I posted something Christian on the Secular thread and the moderator quickly suggested I post on the Christians in Recovery thread. Ole Bub has showed up with intellectual arrogance and has dazzled some.....just my opinion, thanks for letting me share........toad
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:34 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Ephesians 1:3-12.

Paul is highlighting the fact that believers are richly blessed. The inference is that God was so eager to bless his people that he arranged it before the foundation of the world.
We are predestined to Salvation but the choice is still ours....right on Gilmer
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:40 AM   #68 (permalink)
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We are predestined to Salvation but the choice is still ours....right on Gilmer

Iíve been reading this thread and I feel Iíve got to chime in. I love what this poster says!!
We ARE predestined for salvation but we are not robots. The Lord gave us free will. We can choose Christ or we can reject Him. If we call on Him and accept Christ with our hearts as our Lord we are saved. It is a gift for everyone ❤️

As to the original question: For me itís both. Without Christ I wouldnít have the desire to be sober but I need the help of AA To stay sober
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:29 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I believe we will all be reconciled to Him and that no one is left out. Otherwise, how can my God be a kind and loving God?
I believe this too.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I find that either a belief or a disbelief in God is for me speculating beyond the data.
Data, post "Big Bang" is hardly convincing, let alone enlightening, and I see hope in transcendence.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:48 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I doubt if you can get Bub to give you any Scripture. Seems all he is doing is spewing out anti-Christian crap (others have also joined in, didn't used to be this way on this thread, we are under attack). There is no middle of the road, you cannot serve two masters, he who is not for us is against us. He is working for the Enemy, ole Slew Foot the Devil himself. Be careful not to be sucked in. The answer to all of this discussion is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified...plain and simple.

It is a challenge to have these outsiders post here. I remember one time years ago when I posted something Christian on the Secular thread and the moderator quickly suggested I post on the Christians in Recovery thread. Ole Bub has showed up with intellectual arrogance and has dazzled some.....just my opinion, thanks for letting me share........toad
Intellectual arrogance can work both ways when the ego takes over.
P.S . I was quite happy to leave this, thread then Tom Steve asked a question.
"Where there is no vision the people perish"------ well you wanted something from scripture.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:48 PM   #72 (permalink)
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i think John 3 addresses quite a bit thats been typed about here. maybe? quite a bit just in 12-21
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 ďHe who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.Ē
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the free will to believe or not believe:
i would rather go through life believing in God and Jesus and find out they arent true than go through life not believing and find out they are.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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is there scripture to support his claims?
You'd better ask Toad, I'm damned.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:10 PM   #74 (permalink)
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TomSteve - My son - this monkey dont drive.
🤠
thats not what he told me.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:55 PM   #75 (permalink)
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You'd better ask Toad, I'm damned.
Don’t be too sure of that, Bub!

Remember, you’ve crossed my path!

In all seriousness, I am praying for you and for the other secular guys who have popped by this thread with great affection and joy.

When I got born again, I was astonished at my sudden recognition of Jesus. All I could think was “IT’S BEEN YOU ALL ALONG!”

I hope one day you have a similar recognition in your pursuit of transcendence. You will fall to your knees in gratitude and joy.

My ESH!
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:04 PM   #76 (permalink)
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I hope one day you have a similar recognition in your pursuit of transcendence. You will fall to your knees in gratitude and joy.

My ESH!
there is no greater joy than when someone finds Jesus and is baptized.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:24 AM   #77 (permalink)
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there is no greater joy than when someone finds Jesus and is baptized.
Agreed!!

Hey Tomsteve, have you read the book "More Than a Carpenter"? I just started it.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:35 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Agreed!!

Hey Tomsteve, have you read the book "More Than a Carpenter"? I just started it.
actually,no.
but i sit here laughing because i was a carpenter for many years before being forced into retirement. my last year carpentering i was sober, but before that i could have said,"i already knew i was more than a carpenter!"
good ole pride and ego used to fly a wee bit.
the book probably isnt about me,though.
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Old 04-17-2018, 02:49 PM   #79 (permalink)
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You'd better ask Toad, I'm damned.
(1)I anwered a question re AA or Jesus relevant to sobriety.
(2)I apologized for entering hallowed Christian ground.
(3)I indicated that I would not do such again.
(4)I was asked a question, not wishing to be impolite, I answered.
(5) See 3-----


Post this, I have been accused of trying to hi-jack this thread, being lost (I take this to mean headed for eternal torture) unfamiliar wth scripture, turning others from Christianity...........almost being 666 or the Anti Christ. Not accusations I have enjoyed.

I was banned from two major atheist forums which sort of flys in the face relevant to the above paragraph.

Dogma distorts dialogue, and while a sub group may wish to feel smug in their own shared convictions perhaps it should be made clearer that any conflicting views will not be tolerated. I have no desire to upset Cristians of any persuasiom In fact suprise, suprise, I talk with Jesus myself.

I have decided to leave S.R. Good luck to all of you, and strength in your spiritual journey, and freedom from alcohol and other drugs.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:01 PM   #80 (permalink)
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cmon, bubovski,dont leave. that would make satan laugh and allow him to win another spiritual war.
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