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Old 04-15-2018, 05:02 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Always knowing of course that the monkey cant lie as it does not have the ability.
how do we know that to be fact,though?did they tell something to trust them, theyre honest?
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:31 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Have faith in me TomSteve - have faith
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:02 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I can answer for myself Toad.
I consider myself a secular and spiritual ponderer.
As there are thousands of Christian groups all claiming the right guidance
the question is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string'.
I attempt to be a reasonably decent person and that includes reading
from spiritual books, including Christianity.
You are lost Bub. I do not understand why you would want to post on a Christian in Recovery thread....possibly you are trying to develop a true relationship with Jesus Christ. If you can concede to your inner most self that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that the finished work of the Cross is the source of our Salvation, healing and deliverance....then you will know true Peace like you have never known.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;" 1 Cor 1:27

What is your opinion on this Scripture.

Thanks for responding and letting me share with you Bub.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:05 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Have faith in me TomSteve - have faith
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i have faith in you,dave.
but i wouldnt have faith in a monkey with my car keys.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:12 AM   #45 (permalink)
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TomSteve - My son - this monkey dont drive.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:26 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Has either AA or any sort of faith helped you get sober, Daveglass?

I’d like to hear more things of substance from you, rather than just our being the butt of your jokes.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:30 AM   #47 (permalink)
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No Gilmer - they havent - take it easy.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:19 PM   #48 (permalink)
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You are lost Bub. I do not understand why you would want to post on a Christian in Recovery thread....possibly you are trying to develop a true relationship with Jesus Christ. If you can concede to your inner most self that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that the finished work of the Cross is the source of our Salvation, healing and deliverance....then you will know true Peace like you have never known.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;" 1 Cor 1:27

What is your opinion on this Scripture.

Thanks for responding and letting me share with you Bub.
I must apologize; I neglected to check the source of this thread.
Had I realised it was from the Christian apologists I would have ignored it. If God has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise He seems to be doing a good job.
As for my 'lost' state, if I have to burn in Hell for eternity (pre planned according to Calvin) then so be it, negating free thought and questioning is not an option I plan to take.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:25 PM   #49 (permalink)
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whats a christian apologist and who is calvin?
serious question here as ive never heard of them.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
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whats a christian apologist and who is calvin?
serious question here as ive never heard of them.
Apologists----simply those supporting and arguing for Christian theology.

Calvin was a leader in the protestant reformation.
He seems to have taught pre-destination.
That is the idea that God planned all our destinies in advance.
This includes the idea that He chose a large number for Hell.
The idea seems to fly in the face of the doctrine of Grace.
Check out T.U.L.I.P on line for a fuller explanation.

I don't want to muddy the water, but you did ask...
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:22 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I’m glad you came back, Bubovski.

As you know, Calvinists believe that everyone on earth has been predestined from time immemorial to be either saved or unsaved.

This is an issue that gives massive heartburn on many levels to many people!

Somehow we are all completely predestined—yet we also retain 100% free will. We are saved only by grace—yet we are willing and culpable participants in our own damnation.

I can’t explain how it works—it’s a paradox.

So I just trust in the superior knowledge and wisdom of God, whom I believe has a specific design for creation.

Here’s how I deal with the paradox without questioning God’s justice and mercy: I believe that every single person who personally crosses my path is either now, or will eventually be, one of God’s elect.

I try my best to treat everyone with the respect and dignity commensurate with a beloved creature of God, no matter what different things I have to say.

By no means is that an official Christian doctrine; but I’ve examined it against Scripture, and I can’t see that it’s contradictory or harmful.

I don’t know about the other people in the world, but I act as if the ones I encounter will ultimately be saved, whether my own statements have any direct impact or not.

Tom, a good place to hear and read teaching about Calvinism is on the Ligonier Ministries website, and from YouTubes from the late R. C. Sproul.

EDIT: I stepped on your post, Bub!
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:26 PM   #52 (permalink)
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yeah, I'm with Gilmer.

Every knee will bow every tongue confess.

I believe we will all be reconciled to Him and that no one is left out. Otherwise, how can my God be a kind and loving God?
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:32 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Questions are natural. God is not threatened by anything we do or say.

I view it like an interaction I saw between my brother-in-law and his 7-y-o son.

My BIL instructed him not to do something, and the kid went nuclear, screaming and flailing at his dad.

My BIL just held him out at arm’s length and let him flail away till he wore himself out.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:33 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I’m glad you came back, Bubovski.

As you know, Calvinists believe that everyone on earth has been predestined from time immemorial to be either saved or unsaved.

This is an issue that gives massive heartburn on many levels to many people!

Somehow we are all completely predestined—yet we also retain 100% free will. We are saved only by grace—yet we are willing and culpable participants in our own damnation.

I can’t explain how it works—it’s a paradox.

So I just trust in the superior knowledge and wisdom of God, whom I believe has a specific design for creation.

Here’s how I deal with the paradox without questioning God’s justice and mercy: I believe that every single person who crosses my path is either now, or will eventually be, one of God’s elect.

I try my best to treat everyone with the respect and dignity commensurate with a beloved creature of God, no matter what different things I have to say.

By no means is that an official Christian doctrine; but I’ve examined it against Scripture, and I don’t think it’s contradictory or harmful.

I don’t know about the other people in the world, but I act as if the ones I encounter will ultimately be saved, whether my own statements have any direct impact or not.

Tom, a good place to hear and read teaching about Calvinism is on the Ligonier Ministries website, and from YouTubes from the late R. c. Sproul.
Thanks, I see their approach as confusing and counter productive..
If we see God's wisdom and methodoogy as largely beyond our finite lowliness (ineffable God.) but still of great importance, perhaps we can feel more comfortable.
Jesus did say to seek.............
I must say too that I found your summary compassionate and very good. Are you a church minister?
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:46 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Yes he did!
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:30 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I must say too that I found your summary compassionate and very good. Are you a church minister?
Thank you very much. I’m honored that you would say that.

No, I’m not a minister, but I ‘ve been a serious Christian for 36 years.

I’m also halfway through a Biblical Studies degree at a Reformed seminary. I am on a hiatus now.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:46 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Thank you very much. Iím honored that you would say that.

No, Iím not a minister, but I Ďve been a serious Christian for 36 years.

Iím also halfway through a Biblical Studies degree at a Reformed seminary. I am on a hiatus now.
Well done ! Istudied philosophy of religion at La Trobe Uni, also comparative religion.All good fun if you don't weaken.
I have also dealt extensively with atheists who think they know eveything, and can be more annoying than the most conservative Fundie.
My granpa was organizer of the Pocket Testament League here in Melbourne. I don't think it exists, as such, any more.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:34 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I have also dealt extensively with atheists who think they know eveything, and can be more annoying than the most conservative Fundie.
I find that either a belief or a disbelief in God is for me speculating beyond the data.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:12 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Agreed. We need to speculate beyond the data to try to get a coherent, adequate and fruitful view of the world from the place where we start from, and we need to adjust that in the light of new knowledge that we come across.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:20 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Calvin was a leader in the protestant reformation.
He seems to have taught pre-destination.
That is the idea that God planned all our destinies in advance.
This includes the idea that He chose a large number for Hell.
The idea seems to fly in the face of the doctrine of Grace.
Check out T.U.L.I.P on line for a fuller explanation.

I don't want to muddy the water, but you did ask...
is there scripture to support his claims?
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