Authenticity V

 
Old 06-27-2015, 08:50 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
pray for strength
 
Verte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
How about these, Courage:

bagel
flag
bag
roof
root
milk
pillow

Expressions from the Carolinas that bring a smile to my face are Bless her heart! and whatnot. Happy Saturday to you all. Enjoy the cool down Robby and Melissa.
Verte is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:10 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,241
uh everyone all y'all have so much going on!
Rob, thanks for asking; i feel clean. and somehow like everything is different now, though i don't "feel" different or that i "am" different except that everything is entirely different now.

and blown away that i actually DID this. and all the other stuff i'd done, leading up to this.
all stuff i wasn't ever ever EVER going to do!


wishing you ever strengthening connection with your brother, and a good afternoon all around.

just thinking of what brynn said about being with someone who shares your early life experiences...it's so stunning to me sometimes that my siblings and i seem to share almost none, even though the "first three" of us were only apart by a year each. seems like we had drastically different early life experiences all around....though outwardly everything was pretty much the same.
fini is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:13 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
I feel like I got punched in the gut

Dear friends -

I just found out that my sister-in-law's multiple myeloma has returned. She has a complete stem cell transplant in 2014 that was successful in stopping the cancer for awhile. We knew that it would return at some point, but not this soon. It doesn't look good for her. I am so grateful to be able to safely share this here in this forum. I've not yet lost a close relative to cancer. Just about everything else but cancer. Now, it has come up close and personal for me.

I guess that is about it for now. Thanks again for letting me share. esp Rob and Melissa.
ArtFriend is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:14 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
p***enger
 
courage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,986
Originally Posted by haennie View Post
Need to do some data analysis with long strings of numbers but nothing too new now -- I think I'll plug into more Bob Marley so that it's not that monotonous )
Haennie -- enjoy the data work and Marley -- I find the intricacies of almost any kind of data work (except cleaning) soothing. Lots of people do -- I have old students who come to me and say, don't you just have a bunch of data that I can mess around with to take my mind off things?
courage2 is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:15 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
Marchia in Aeternum
 
trachemys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 11,094
Bless your/their heart is one of the most subtle Southernisms.

Happy day to all. It was raining when I woke. My golf tournament got cancelled at 6 AM. I went back to bed. I'm going to the mascot factory to do some work on my table.

As always, there's lot's to ponder in this thread. I'll take it with me and ponder while working.
trachemys is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:16 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
p***enger
 
courage2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,986
((Artfriend))

Verte -- when I first hit NYC as a teenager, the woman who interviewed me openly mocked my pronunciation of bagel. I lost that so fast, I don't remember what it was!
courage2 is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 09:47 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
(((ArtFriend))) So sorry to hear of your sister-in-law's recurrence. How sad and frightening it must be for her, her husband, and you. Feel free of course to share with us as much as you feel is helpful. It is different when its close and personal, as you said.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 10:19 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
...holds the key
 
brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
I'm so sorry Art. Hugs ❤️
brynn is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 10:36 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
Do your best
 
Soberwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
Hello Robby hope your having a nice day, Sorry about the news AF
Soberwolf is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 10:39 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
Member
 
Della1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Fingerlakes,NY
Posts: 4,536
Sorry AF
Della1968 is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 10:42 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
Speaking of sisters Brynn... my sister-in-law was also instrumental in helping me when I was a teenager living in chaos at home. She came from a super stable home with lots of love and support. When she married my brother I was 13. She had already been a dean of students at Brown and was used to dealing with young people. She would help me with any academic issues I might have and guided me through the college application process. Once in college, I was able to turn to her for advice on what to major in, how to handle studying etc.

I have always felt enormous gratitude towards her, even though my relationship with my brother has always been problematic. This news has really saddened me. Yet another loss in my family.
ArtFriend is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 12:00 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
...holds the key
 
brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,065
Art, I'm so glad you had/have her in your life. It's amazing the difference just one person can make.

And fini....I meant to post this earlier but got distracted. I'm so glad the meeting with your ex went well. I was nervous for you, but knew you would handle yourself with dignity and purpose. Very inspiring!
Xoxo
brynn is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 02:29 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
EndGame
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by haennie View Post
EndGame, I have not expressed to you this directly yet so will now: I'm so glad Mary Ann's treatment has proven successful and she is improving. On her not telling you and the family about her initial prognosis and outlook... Well, the first thing that came to mind reading it was that I would probably do the same with family... the second, is this really a reflection of denial? I don't know Mary Ann, but the way I would think about it is more in line with not wanting to stress out my family with information that I think I can handle by myself, especially if I had someone in the family I was very close with and knew they had difficulties in the past with the loss of loved ones. Just like what you mentioned on your thread about not wanting to overwhelm Mary Ann with your own experience, how this thing is exhausting sometimes. You mentioned on your thread that Mary Ann noticed your being tired and overwhelmed though -- again, if I saw something like that, would never want to add to it even more. Plus, given that you guys have a large family... again, based on what you shared with us about her being an independent spirit, I might even withhold that sort of info in order to protect myself from everyone's wanting to shower me with their attention in regards to something that is actually quite uncertain as of yet. I may be seeing this wrongly as I don't know any of you IRL and the whole situation, but I'm there with Robby in that I'm glad you did not insist on those conversations about her sharing that info or not. And will add that please don't take this as either her refusing your support or not trusting that you could endure such a situation well without drinking or anything adverse.
Hi Haennie.

What you've brought up is a very complex set of processes with no black-and-white "rules" that fit nicely into a comprehensive system. Freud's theory of repression and it's practical application are as much art as they are science. Without marginalizing popular conceptions of Freud's theories, the Freud that's been made available for public consumption is very different from his actual theories, and writing an essay on this would not be helpful. I cannot assume that anyone here has either a nuanced study or understanding of Freud's theories or a superficial understanding of his writings. Despite my lifelong study of Freud, my explanation will be both incomplete, less than comprehensive, and perhaps unsatisfying.

So, briefly, there has been an ongoing debate around whether or not the standard "ego defenses," as beautifully described by Anna Freud, are completely unconscious or only more or less unconscious. I fall in the latter group. In my understanding, Freud's concept of "ego" (which vacillates between the conscious and the unconscious) triggers the defenses to make disturbing or unwanted conscious content unconscious. The process itself is thought to be wholly unconscious, while the content itself is only more or less conscious, moving partially from one to the other under differing intrapsychic and external circumstances. As a means of clarification, repression is an unconscious process that protects the ego from unpleasant thoughts and feelings, while suppression is an actively conscious activity to "not think about" that which disturbs us. The latter can be both taught and learned, while the former is considered to be a natural function of the human psyche and is an automatic process.

The triggering of denial is so universal in the face of a potentially lethal medical diagnosis as to be startling only when it is not present. By definition, denial and the other defenses come into play whenever we're confronted with trauma. The "reflection of denial," as you put it, is not a simple concept. When unwanted conscious content is successfully repressed, it then "creates" or becomes a part of an intrapsychic conflict. This conflict, in addition to the psychic energy required to keep the content unconscious and to sustain the conflict, will eventaully reveal itself in another form (e.g., anxiety) of which we are largely conscious, though we are generally unable to link this "newer event" with that which was made unconscious. Sometimes these newer events "make sense" to us, and they sometimes carry what seems to be an obvious purpose, and sometimes they don't.

In my sister's case, the "reasons" for her not wanting to burden me or anyone else with her struggles, though they "make sense," do not mean that they are not a "reflection of denial." Bear in mind that unconscious defenses need to be efficient in order for them to "work," and this drive for efficiency often includes a compelling or at least a plausible "cover story." Again, the primary purpose of defenses is to protect the person from trauma, and they are neither "good" nor "bad." My framing her behavior in terms of denial was not a criticism, but an observation based on my experience. Mary Ann also said that she did not want to "tell this" to anyone, even to herself. If nothing else, this is a signal that revealing her fears around her diagnosis would only create further anxiety and essentially make both the reality of her diagnosis and her related fears "more real." Denial seeks to avoid this as the revelation of disturbing content to other people would therefore create additional sources of anxiety.

I'm there with Robby in that I'm glad you did not insist on those conversations about her sharing that info or not. And will add that please don't take this as either her refusing your support or not trusting that you could endure such a situation well without drinking or anything adverse.
Why would I insist that anyone else shares with me information about their trauma unless, of course, I found a good reason for doing so? For example, when I work with patients, I tell them that they don't have to talk about anything with me that they don't want to and, in fact, that I don't need to know everything about them. This gives them permission to talk about anything they want to talk about without feeling pressured to address "the issue" that they came to see me about in the first place in great detail.

As we all know, the subtleties of interpersonal interactions demand a certain amount of attention be paid to the needs and wants of other people. It is never just about me, no matter how clever I might think I am. All the experience, education and training in the world means nothing if I'm unable to hear where someone else is at.

...please don't take this as either her refusing your support or not trusting that you could endure such a situation well without drinking or anything adverse.
I can't say I know how you got this from what I wrote. I thought my comments were addressing my own process through the events which I described, and an appreciation for what Mary Ann may have been going through. When I told her that it might be a good idea to speak more openly about such things in the future, it was a signal, an invitation for her to share her anxiety with me when she feels she needs to, that I won't be overwhelmed by it, and that I understood why she kept things to herself.

Mary Ann may not always know or be able to admit to herself that I'm not as fragile as I was in early sobriety, so my checking in with her on this seems reasonable.

I very much appreciate your thoughts on this, as well as your support.

Thank you.
EndGameNYC is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 03:19 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Thanks EndGame. And for sure I will respond when I am ready.
Aellyce is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 03:56 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
Can I jump in here or is this a conversation between you two?
ArtFriend is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 04:01 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by ArtFriend View Post
Can I jump in here or is this a conversation between you two?
Yes, please
Aellyce is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 05:37 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC View Post
The triggering of denial is so universal in the face of a potentially lethal medical diagnosis as to be startling only when it is not present. By definition, denial and the other defenses come into play whenever we're confronted with trauma. The "reflection of denial," as you put it, is not a simple concept. When unwanted conscious content is successfully repressed, it then "creates" or becomes a part of an intrapsychic conflict. This conflict, in addition to the psychic energy required to keep the content unconscious and to sustain the conflict, will eventaully reveal itself in another form (e.g., anxiety) of which we are largely conscious, though we are generally unable to link this "newer event" with that which was made unconscious. Sometimes these newer events "make sense" to us, and they sometimes carry what seems to be an obvious purpose, and sometimes they don't.

In my sister's case, the "reasons" for her not wanting to burden me or anyone else with her struggles, though they "make sense," do not mean that they are not a "reflection of denial." Bear in mind that unconscious defenses need to be efficient in order for them to "work," and this drive for efficiency often includes a compelling or at least a plausible "cover story." Again, the primary purpose of defenses is to protect the person from trauma, and they are neither "good" nor "bad." My framing her behavior in terms of denial was not a criticism, but an observation based on my experience. Mary Ann also said that she did not want to "tell this" to anyone, even to herself. If nothing else, this is a signal that revealing her fears around her diagnosis would only create further anxiety and essentially make both the reality of her diagnosis and her related fears "more real." Denial seeks to avoid this as the revelation of disturbing content to other people would therefore create additional sources of anxiety.
Hi EndGame. Interesting discussion on denial and defenses and be they either or both unconscious or conscious. For myself, given the above statements on denial, I suppose I'm remarkable in that I do not now, or at anytime since receiving my incurable diagnosis struggle with denial consciously. As for my unconscious, I wouldn't know, lol.

I'm thinking about your and haennies posts. I just wanted to get this out there.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 05:55 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Hey Robby, EndGame, and everyone else

I'm just buried in writing two papers and a report to NIH, about our work when I am not here (a little paranoia about Singapore, but nothing significant as we got some real cool data there). Once this is this done, I will jump into our discussions for sure!

Have a good night, friends
Aellyce is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 06:03 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,459
I will start by saying "how many angels dance on the head of a pin?" Or in other words, scholasticism. I don't want to have this thread become a sparring match between intellectuals who exclude others who might benefit. I also hide behind my intellectual pursuits and it is a very lonely place. So, please become "authentic" in the truest sense of the term.
ArtFriend is offline  
Old 06-27-2015, 06:15 PM
  # 60 (permalink)  
EndGame
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Hi EndGame. Interesting discussion on denial and defenses and be they either or both unconscious or conscious. For myself, given the above statements on denial, I suppose I'm remarkable in that I do not now, or at anytime since receiving my incurable diagnosis struggle with denial consciously. As for my unconscious, I wouldn't know, lol.

I'm thinking about your and haennies posts. I just wanted to get this out there.
That's okay, Robby.

There are mitigating factors involved in each type of psychological defense, and they often do not work as completely as they might. And sometimes they "go too far." The more we rely on ego defenses in life to get through our difficulties, the more likely they are to grow stronger and to be our first line of defense. And so on...

In retrospect, I'd rather not get into a discussion on this as my OP on the subject was much more about a personal, emotional interaction than it was a theoretical discussion of defense mechanisms. By definition, we cannot fully know to what extent our defense mechanisms are in play, no matter how insightful we may see ourselves. If I were to continue on this line of reasoning, based on Freudian theory and my interpretation of that theory, I'd need to make comments that some people would likely experience as disturbing (or am I just repressing/projecting/denying here? ).

In further response to Haennie, I wanted to say to her that there seems to be a level of projecting in your analysis that overreaches my actual experience which, in turn, seems to have brought about a superficial confrontation on a seemingly theoretical level. And I'm uncomfortable with that, even though I see my part in it.

I don't believe that theoretical discussions are free of either personal investment or emotion. Discussions about Freud's theories and their application easily spill over into fist fights, and I'd much prefer to leave my contributions at that.

There is plenty of information on the Internet to resolve the issues around mechanisms of defense for anyone who's interested in such things without applying that information to an experience between my sister and me beyond what my own experience was in that situation.
EndGameNYC is offline  
 

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:10 PM.