lizzy girl

Maybe this should be as clear as a bell to me, but I'm not sure how concerned I should be about my husband's occassional behavior because it has never progressed past this point in all these years. My counselor and I just touched upon this last night but he wants to discuss it in detail during our next session. I was explaining to him how my AH publicly humiliated me recently, once in front of customers, once in a restaurant. We talked about ways to deal with his behavior, and he asked me if I ever felt physically threatened.

During our 27 year history together, and umpteen million fights, he has never hurt me. Over 25 years ago he slapped me very lightly as he thought I was getting hysterical about something--very minor in my book at the time.

He has thrown me onto the bed or couch a few times, which has never hurt me. He has slammed on his brakes when we have been driving and driven me into the dashboard a few times (me with no seatbelt on) but I was never hurt.

The scariest thing he does (usually when he is drinking but sometimes sober)
is when he goes into a rage/tantrum. He starts hyperventillating, baring his teeth at me, spitting, clenches his fists, and sometimes grabs my arms. I have told him that he is scaring me, or have taunted him--go ahead and hit me, or look at the big man, or you are acting like a child. He then backs away and it's over. This hasn't happened since a binge 4 months ago and probably only a few times a year.

I know this man inside and out and I really don't think if he has never actually hurt me in all these years that it will happen now. I have hit him during my anger at his drunkeness a few times, which I am not proud of, and he has never fought back. So, his behavior is scarey but that's it. I don't think he has it in him to go beyond this point. Am I being plain naive or should I trust my intuition that I really am safe?

ASpouse

Never say never!

ICU

I think you already know the answer. What would you say to a friend or relative if they described the same situations to you?

Just a suggestion.... perhaps anger management is something the both of you should consider?

Pick-a-name

I thought this about my AH,too. One night I saw a different look in his eyes....he was no one I recognized. All I can say to describe it was 'evil'. It scared me. This was the only time in our 30 yrs (before or since) I ever felt like that, but that was the moment I knew that he would have to do something about the drinking if he was going to live in the same house and me and/or our children. period.

cinderellawkids

Ive alwasys had the same questions. Last night something in me snapped when he was cocky in my face, I smacked him to get him to go away. He held me down dragged me to the room and open handedly smacked me very hard across the face. Today I ahve a huge fat lip, sore jaw and a headache. I take responsibility for my actions but not his. Someone told me 2 years ago it starts with a shove a push or throwing something and escalates. I never believed them, but the truth is I do now. I was calmed down by the time he smacked me, I did not deserve this nor will I let him blame me.
Many woman have died with the thoughts it will never happen to me, I cant take taht chance, I hope you'll take the abuse and violence seriously as well

Jazzman

Do you have kids witnessing what you described above?

denny57

I do not believe that anger management addresses abuse. IMHO they are two distinct things. No abuse is acceptable. It is not how two people who love each other treat each other, I don't care how angry you are.

I hope everyone who has posted above that they have been subjected to this understand the seriousness of it and get help. Don't blame the drinking.

gypsyrose

As they say, alcoholism is progressive. So is abuse. When my AH started smacking me on the a$$, it wasn't even in a rage but it was hard enough to hurt. I gave him the benifit of the doubt that he was just playing the first couple of times. I yelled out, "ow, that hurt" and told I him to knock it off the first 2 times (this was after 11 years of marriage without being hit). The 3rd time, I went off and told him exactly what was wrong with what he was doing and why he had to stop... He got mad at me:O He started acting crazy. We'd previously made an agreement that when his behavior became unacceptable that I could take the boys on "vacation" until things cooled off. I'd leave an e-mail saying something like I loved him and wasn't leaving him but I didn't love his behavior and we were taking a break. We'd continue communicating that way until I felt comfortable coming home. When he smacked me and acted so crazy when I told him it wasn't okay, I left for 3 weeks with no communication. His sister and his friend actually ended up telling him I wasn't coming back unless he quite drinking for me because I couldn't even talk to him. I'd never asked him to stop drinking before. I had, with his blessings, started attending alanon meetings the previous Summer because I finally understood what was meant by the progressive nature of alcoholism. My point is alcoholism and abuse are both progressive. I doesn't mean that you'll end up front page news one morning but it doesn't mean you won't either. It was important to me that I make a very clear boundary about physical abuse. Not because what he had done was more abusive that all the terrible things he's said to me over the years but because, for me, physical abuse is a deal breaker. And because I was afraid it would progress along side the alcoholism.

CatsTail

Yes you are being plain naive. It's only luck he hasn't hurt you, the things he has done are definitely violent acts towards you.

You sound very desensitized from it and the scariest thing is you are talking about this like it is normal behavior.

It's not.

Ngaire

lizzy girl

No kids, I decided not to bring children into this relationship many years ago, one of my best decisions. My husband won't seek help for his alcoholism, let alone anger management. I feel that I have made progress in letting go of the intense anger I was feeling towards his drinking, and wouldn't expect myself to hit him again, unless it was in self defense.

PaperDolls

What would you say if you had a daughter in the same situation?

Edit:
Oops - we posted at the same time......but still, I think it's a valid question.

If you know that your husband refuses to get help for his addiction, are you willing to live your life this way?

~doll

Lalaleah

Yes, he has abused you. Abuse does not have to mean he punched you or smacked you (although he did smack you once). Pushing, grabbing your arms, forcing you into the dashboard are all forms of abuse. i think women tend to normalize their situation. In a healthy loving relationship a person wouldn't do these things.

ICU

Does anger mangement alone entirely address abuse? No. Partially? Well, let's just say it's a good beginning. The courts order it all the time. My ex was court ordered to go.

Since both people here have resorted to physical assaults (whether in the past or not), anger management could be helpful. To learn how to avoid/defuse situations that escilate to the point of violence, etc. Self defense issues are compeletly different, but still, there are many useful tools to utilize in defusing some of those situations as well.

I agree....the drinking is not to blame for the abuse. It IS a separate issue!

ASpouse

Personally I'd rather suffer physical abuse than mental abuse, which it appears is what he is doing. Intimidation tactics. At least with physical abuse I'd have proof, with mental abuse, there is none, just my word against the mental abuser.

MsPINKAcres

A good suggestion is if your very best friend, your Mom, or your daughter wrote this same information to you what do you think you would tell them to do? Take a step back - Look at the situation as an outsider - is it abuse - mental? physical? Is it a lot to ask to be able to feel safe in your own home?

Only you can answer these questions, but sometimes we are too close to see the truth - Like GypsyRose said, Alcoholism and Violent behavior usually progress in a destructive manner - Please continue reading the "stickys" and focus on taking care of you. We care about what happens to you.
Hugs to you, Lizzy Girl,
Rita

equus

Good on you for your honesty here and I'm glad you have the chance to talk to your counsellor about this.

What you wrote here truly frightened me and I'm going to do my best to explain why.
When you described his behaviour it was at a point of having lost almost all control, total inability to express himself, frustration, and anger. You're right to be frightened - there's no way it can be read as other than threatening. BUT it was your response to it that chilled me, are you really prepared to go the full monty? Take the beating? Because your bluff is saying you are! Have you ever seen people prepare to fight? The process of getting closer, the process of threat, the process of demonstrated NO RETREAT, the body language and words - they're a pattern, almost like animals, giving chances for one or the other to retreat. You're not - he has, SO FAR. Your words are those of someone squaring up to a fight.

How do I know this? When I was 14 I squared up to my father and I would have fought, I was lucky it worked and was never repeated. I was 14 and had very few choices, as a free adult there's no way in hell I would take that risk again. I'm a 5'10" powerfully built woman, an ex horse breaker by trade but I would never willingly put myself in a fight because win or lose the risks are too great.

To my mind what you're doing isn't working, he may walk away but it happens again and that tells me something - it isn't working, you're losing the bluff.

I suggest you ring a domestic violence helpline (the numbers are at the top of this forum) check anything I've said - or that anyone has said but talk to people trained to deal with this.

My feeling is that you're playing with fire - badly.

Minx1969

Yes..This is physical abuse.

Healthy adults don't grab, slam on the brakes or manhandle each other the way you have described...

As Denny mentioned abuse and alcholism are two separate issues...

Read "Why does he do that. Inside the minds of angry and controlling men" by Lundy Bancroft.

Please like Equus said - call a domestic violence helpline and get some help.

mallowcup

An alcoholic has convinced themselves that they can drink and carry on in a normal world. They think they are completely justified in their behavior. In their mind if you weren't so stupid, so unreasonable, such a red flag to their drinking, everything would be just fine. Normal people don't communicate by screaming in public, slapping faces or thowing anyone on a bed. The abusemay seem undamaging but it isn't, They think you are someone who is to be slapped and thrown around, humiliated. They wouldn't do that to their mother, so they can control it. Once a hand is raised, all conversations are over. I was very abused in my first marriage and there comes a fight or flight when you will protect your self. Something snapped in me that I knew, if he hit me again, I would fight him with no restraint and one of would not get up. This is dangerous because it is quiet rage. He hits or slaps and you bounce back like a punch toy. It simmers, it stews. Now, you just recover ASAP because you are humiliated and embarrassed. You don't want to draw attention to your self. That will change. There needs to be immediate intolerance to this behavior. My ex would intentionally do stuff in public knowing I could crawl under the floor tiles, it's conditioning. You don't deal with it, you just put it away ASAP. Would this behavior be acceptable if it were happening to your daughter or mother? Tantruming is what children do, when an adult does it, it is meant to instill fear. There was no greater joy than the day I didn't live like that anymore. Disassociate yourself from him. he's a jerk with a capital J. If you don't you will find yourself isolating yourself away from people you respect because you will fear being embarrassed. It's just easier not to have friends. You are exactly one decison away from never dealing with this man again. If he so much as touches you in a harmful way, call 911 and have him removed. You will get a restraining order and that will be that. Youcan start building a whole new enjoyable life and be reminded of the simple pleasures in life.

sunshine003

my ah has done things that have scared me. Not directly to me but they scared me a bit.....scared and annoyed me. I've never gone back at him in anyway. He does at times, while drinking, become angry at whatever. I never viewed it as abuse and I also never thought it was "normal" either. For example, one time as I was driving on a heavy traffic type interstate, he thought in his drunken mind I was going the wrong way. I was trying to explain I wasn't and he argued, he also turned the wheel and took us into the median. It SCARED me. I was driving 65 miles an hour with cars all around me. This is wreckless behavior from a drunk man but I don't see how it's physical abuse. I do see and know that it isn't normal behavior as well.

There have been other times he's yelled while in a drunken stooper and clinched his fists, etc.....I feel he's acting like a bully and didn't like it but don't think it's physical abuse. However, I've never said things like, "go ahead....." because I wouldn't egg him on. He's also punched his winsheild til it cracked (several times) over nothing....as in, suddenly out of nowhere he starts yelling over something (might not even have anything to do with me) and he's done this. It's irrational behavior, it's violent behavior but I don't see it as "physical abuse".

I suppose my point is, am *I* not seeing it clearly?

As for the original poster, I agree with all the advice given....especially to not egg him on while he's doing it.

Minx1969

From the National Domestic Violence hotline:

You may be in a physically abusive relationship if your partner has ever:
Damaged property when angry (thrown objects, punched walls, kicked doors, etc.).
Pushed, slapped, bitten, kicked or choked you.
Abandoned you in a dangerous or unfamiliar place.
Scared you by driving recklessly.
Used a weapon to threaten or hurt you.
Forced you to leave your home.
Trapped you in your home or kept you from leaving.
Prevented you from calling police or seeking medical attention.
Hurt your children.
Used physical force in sexual situations.



Yes..Sunshine..it's physical abuse.