When to Give Advice?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3
When to Give Advice?
Hi all. I'm new here. I've talked to a lot of people about this, but not many of them are actually very familiar with alcoholism, so I thought this forum might not be a bad place to start.
A little back-story... I grew up with an alcoholic mom, and I have two siblings - a brother and a sister. My sister was my rock when I was a kid and dealing with my mom. I was much younger than my siblings (by at least 10 years) and in many ways they helped take care of me when my mother couldn't. My mom fought a hard battle and actually won, she's been sober for over 20 years. I'm very proud of my mom, but it left me with some horrible memories of growing up.
I never imagined that my sister would become an enabler. She's the one that explained to me that mom needed to be alone to make the change, and that she had to pick herself up. That's a hard sell to a 13 year old girl who is terrified to leave her mom, but my sister helped me get it.
My sister has been married to a functional alcoholic for years, but recently it's become bad. He was actually arrested for DV about a year ago. My nephew had to call 911 because my sister couldn't get away from her husband. She left him for a while, but eventually took him back because he promised to change and the financial strain was too much. (However, to my knowledge, he hasn't hit her again.)
Well now he's lost his job, and it might be even worse because he did some stupid things before he left that might get him sued. She continues to protect him and refuses to see that this might be happening because he's an alcoholic. My sister is very smart, and very knowledgeable. She volunteers with battered women and understands that it's a horrible situation for a woman to not have power in a relationship.
In the past year, since he was arrested, she's pulled further and further away from her friends and family. She knows that none of us agree with her decision to stay with him, but she feels that it's important to stay with him when he needs her because he's the father of her child. She wants to teach her son that you don't leave someone when they're in trouble.
Incidentally, my mother and I have discussed this at length, and her take is that much like an alcoholic won't change until they realize they have a problem, my sister won't leave until she realizes she does.
So my question to you all is this -- how do you address this situation with someone that you KNOW is aware of the danger she's in and the horrible situation she's put her child in? I have really strong feelings about all of this, but I don't seem able to find the words that won't push her further away from me. I don't know what else to do, so I'm looking for outside help. I feel like it can't be right to do nothing.
Any help would be appreciated - thanks very much.
A little back-story... I grew up with an alcoholic mom, and I have two siblings - a brother and a sister. My sister was my rock when I was a kid and dealing with my mom. I was much younger than my siblings (by at least 10 years) and in many ways they helped take care of me when my mother couldn't. My mom fought a hard battle and actually won, she's been sober for over 20 years. I'm very proud of my mom, but it left me with some horrible memories of growing up.
I never imagined that my sister would become an enabler. She's the one that explained to me that mom needed to be alone to make the change, and that she had to pick herself up. That's a hard sell to a 13 year old girl who is terrified to leave her mom, but my sister helped me get it.
My sister has been married to a functional alcoholic for years, but recently it's become bad. He was actually arrested for DV about a year ago. My nephew had to call 911 because my sister couldn't get away from her husband. She left him for a while, but eventually took him back because he promised to change and the financial strain was too much. (However, to my knowledge, he hasn't hit her again.)
Well now he's lost his job, and it might be even worse because he did some stupid things before he left that might get him sued. She continues to protect him and refuses to see that this might be happening because he's an alcoholic. My sister is very smart, and very knowledgeable. She volunteers with battered women and understands that it's a horrible situation for a woman to not have power in a relationship.
In the past year, since he was arrested, she's pulled further and further away from her friends and family. She knows that none of us agree with her decision to stay with him, but she feels that it's important to stay with him when he needs her because he's the father of her child. She wants to teach her son that you don't leave someone when they're in trouble.
Incidentally, my mother and I have discussed this at length, and her take is that much like an alcoholic won't change until they realize they have a problem, my sister won't leave until she realizes she does.
So my question to you all is this -- how do you address this situation with someone that you KNOW is aware of the danger she's in and the horrible situation she's put her child in? I have really strong feelings about all of this, but I don't seem able to find the words that won't push her further away from me. I don't know what else to do, so I'm looking for outside help. I feel like it can't be right to do nothing.
Any help would be appreciated - thanks very much.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: OHIO
Posts: 959
Shoegirl - she has to do it herself - I've lived with an AH for 22 years and I am having a hard time letting go....she has to want a different way of life and until then there is nothing you can do except pray alot for them. Does she have kids with him? She might be holding on until they are raised but I know from experience this isn't always the best idea. Kids are better off with one happy parent than 2 miserable ones. She may want to post here and tell her story for some support maybe you can bring her here??? Do you think she will join us here?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,075
Hi Shoegirl and welcome
I think your mom is spot on. It sounds like you are close to your sister so maybe if you have a conversation with her in which you let her know you care, you are there for her, etc.
I am dealing with a similar situation with a very dear friend. Several months ago she called me in tears because her husband had gotten physical with her - shaking her in anger (yes, he had been drinking). Right now she is back in denial about it and saying he is under a lot of stress, etc. I told her I thought the physical assault was not warranted under any circustances; that I supported her in whatever she decided to do; and that I was available to her 24 hours a day. I also made her promise that she would call me if he ever got physical again.
If she is like my friend at all, your sister will hear what you are saying. There are times my friend says to me, please don't stop saying what you are saying because I look to you to tell me the truth. She's just not ready to take off the mask yet. We all get there in our own time.
My thoughts are with you.
I think your mom is spot on. It sounds like you are close to your sister so maybe if you have a conversation with her in which you let her know you care, you are there for her, etc.
I am dealing with a similar situation with a very dear friend. Several months ago she called me in tears because her husband had gotten physical with her - shaking her in anger (yes, he had been drinking). Right now she is back in denial about it and saying he is under a lot of stress, etc. I told her I thought the physical assault was not warranted under any circustances; that I supported her in whatever she decided to do; and that I was available to her 24 hours a day. I also made her promise that she would call me if he ever got physical again.
If she is like my friend at all, your sister will hear what you are saying. There are times my friend says to me, please don't stop saying what you are saying because I look to you to tell me the truth. She's just not ready to take off the mask yet. We all get there in our own time.
My thoughts are with you.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
Hi ShoeGirl, Welcome to Sober Recovery, you received very good advice from
Jan and Denny, I cannot add anything.
Just want to say come here any time to ask questions or to vent.
Everyone is here to help, however in many cases there isn't a quick fix, but we can make suggestions and give HUGS.
Keep coming back.
Jan and Denny, I cannot add anything.
Just want to say come here any time to ask questions or to vent.
Everyone is here to help, however in many cases there isn't a quick fix, but we can make suggestions and give HUGS.
Keep coming back.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: novato, ca
Posts: 181
Accepting that she has to do what's right for her as she sees it is probably the most supportive thing you could do. If she knows your not judging her it might be easier for her to share her thoughts with you.
Someone mentioned letting her know about this site, I think that's a good idea. I'm sure she'd be warmly welcomed.
Someone mentioned letting her know about this site, I think that's a good idea. I'm sure she'd be warmly welcomed.
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
Posts: 1,412
Welcome to SR Shoegirl and I will say a prayer for you and your sister. I'm sorry your family is going through this, but I think that letting her know that you are available to her will "stick" in the back of her mind. However, she has to come to her own realization of when enough is enough for her in her own time.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
My sister was the same. Everyone but me kept telling her how wrong she was. I went the other way and told her how strong she was to put up with so much. I commended her for her efforts of trying to hold things together when all others would have said enough is enough.
What resulted in my keeping the communication open between us, when she felt the need, she would call my son and have him stay at her house. Over 6 feet tall with attitude *LOL*
What became the point of breaking for my sister... She started seeing the ill affects on the children. Hit me, hurt me BUT don't hit or hurt my children is what she thought and tried to live. She needed to find her break point and your sister will need do the same.
Give advice when asked for. Give support and communication till advice is asked for. You can deliver the message in a praise where others may try delivery in a direct way. The praise has a better chance of being listened to and we know that the direct delivery will be shut out.
Her eyes will open when she is ready to see what is what.
What resulted in my keeping the communication open between us, when she felt the need, she would call my son and have him stay at her house. Over 6 feet tall with attitude *LOL*
What became the point of breaking for my sister... She started seeing the ill affects on the children. Hit me, hurt me BUT don't hit or hurt my children is what she thought and tried to live. She needed to find her break point and your sister will need do the same.
Give advice when asked for. Give support and communication till advice is asked for. You can deliver the message in a praise where others may try delivery in a direct way. The praise has a better chance of being listened to and we know that the direct delivery will be shut out.
Her eyes will open when she is ready to see what is what.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
A rare thing but I disagree with Best. While it is important to keep communication lines open without judgment, I disagree with praising an abused person for being strong.
I really am not just spouting off....I have been through domestic violence counseling and while I was never told or even implied that I should leave or go, I was reminded of the truth of my situation, just stated compassionately as a matter of fact.
Then when I came here, a wise and saintly woman told me outright that I was in denial.
And, especially when there are children, we must be reminded that while we have the choice, they don't and we are responsible for them.
All of this can be said kindly and with love.
We learn to see our rationalizations, identify them and accept that is what they are.
live
I really am not just spouting off....I have been through domestic violence counseling and while I was never told or even implied that I should leave or go, I was reminded of the truth of my situation, just stated compassionately as a matter of fact.
Then when I came here, a wise and saintly woman told me outright that I was in denial.
And, especially when there are children, we must be reminded that while we have the choice, they don't and we are responsible for them.
All of this can be said kindly and with love.
We learn to see our rationalizations, identify them and accept that is what they are.
live
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
Welcome to SR shoegirl. My sister is going through a similar situation and would confide in me frequently because 1, I'm her brother and 2, I recently ended a marriage to an active alcoholic. My approach was to be a non-judgmental ear to bend and offer stories of my experiences, what worked AND didn't work for me. That way the lines of communication stayed open, which turned out to be more important than the content of the conversations.
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: crownpoint newyork
Posts: 820
Hi, How old is ur nephew? Could u spent alot of time with him to get him out of the chaos? i know u said she has isolated herself from family recently so it may be tough! If it was me I would try to open up the lines of communication. If and when she is ready to leave she will need ur support and ur nephew could use a kind aunt to befriend him. Try not to judge her choices, I know it is hard to see someone we love go on a downward spiral but she needs your love. Many verbal and/or physical abusers try to isolate their SO so they can get away with the behaviors. Take Care and call her!! Kerry
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,358
Welcome to SR ShoeGirl!
I would suggest contacting your local DV hotline for information on how you can help. Perhaps they could send you some brochures to review so advise you on how best to approach the situation. There are several stickies at the top of the board that deal with the subject of DV. One in particular deals with DV phone numbers where you can contact the national number, or, you can search by state. But read all three related stickies, as the more info. you have, the better versed you are on the subject.
The following are excerpts from "Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men', a book on DV written by Lundy Bancroft. This is from the sub-section, How to Support An Abused Woman.
The abuser pressures her severely.
You should be patient. Remember that it takes time for an abused woman to sort out her confusion and figure out how to handle her situation. It is not helpful for her to try to follow your timetable for when she should stand up to her partner, leave him, call the police, or whaterever step you want her to take. You need to respect her judgement regarding when she is ready to take action - something the abuser never does.
The abuser talks down to her.
You should address her as an equal. Avoid all traces of condescension or supeior knowledge in your voice. This caution applies just as much or more to professionals. If you speak to an abused woman as if you are smarter or wiser than she is, or as if she is going through something that could never happen to you, then you inadvertently confirm exactly what the abuser has been tellilng her, which is that she is beneath him. Remember, your actions speak louder than your words.
The abuser thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does.
You should treat her as the expert on her own life. Don't assume that you know what she needs to do. I have sometimes given abused women suggestions that I thought were exactly right but turned out to be terrible for that particular situation. Ask her what she thinks might work, and, without pressuring her, offer suggestions, respecting her explanations for why certain courses of action would not be helpful. Don't tell her what to do.
The abuser dominates conversations.
You should listen more and talk less. The tempation may be great to convince her what a 'jerk' he is, to analyze his motives, to give speeches covering entire chapters of this book. But, talking too much inadvertently communicates to her that your thoughts are more important than hers which is exactly how the abuser treats her. If you want her to value her own feelings and opinions, then you have to show her that you value them.
The abuser believes he has the right to control her life.
You should respect her right to self-determination. She is entitled to make decisions that are not exactly what you would choose, including the decision to stay with ther abusive partner or to return to him after a separation. You can't convince a woman that her life belongs to her if you are simulataneously acting like it belongs to you. Stay by her even when she makes choices that you don't like.
The abuser assumes he understands her children and their needs better than she does.
You should assume that she is a competent, caring mother. Remember that there is no simple way to determine what is best for the children of an abused woman. Even if she leaves the abuser, the children's problems are not necessarily over, and sometimes abusers actually create worse difficulties for the children post separation than before. You cannot help her to find the best path for her chldren unless you have a realistic grasp of the complicated set of choices that face her.
The abuser thinks for her.
You should think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.
Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with "don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him, you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"
The above may be overkill, but I think it directly relates to the question you asked in your quote above. It may explain her reasons for pulling back from her friends and family. Besides, it's not uncommon for a woman in a DV situation to act like this. And, it's generally one of the tools that an abuser uses to gain and retain control.
I know you say you don't believe he has hit her again, but if she is pulling back from her friends and family, I guarantee you will never know the complete story of what goes on behind closed doors. I 'rarely' fessed up. And to this day, my parents don't know any details of what I endured.
The other thing that I wanted to briefly focus on is this:
I hope in time she realizes that although the concept of what she's trying to teach her son about not leaving some one in trouble is honorable to a certain degree. But in reality, she 'could' be teaching her son how to stay with an abusive person, or, become an abusive person. I hope she thinks this one through some more.
Hugs to you for caring and wanting to learn how best to help your sister.
Originally Posted by ShoeGirl
So my question to you all is this -- how do you address this situation with someone that you KNOW is aware of the danger she's in and the horrible situation she's put her child in?
I have really strong feelings about all of this, but I don't seem able to find the words that won't push her further away from me. I don't know what else to do, so I'm looking for outside help. I feel like it can't be right to do nothing.
I have really strong feelings about all of this, but I don't seem able to find the words that won't push her further away from me. I don't know what else to do, so I'm looking for outside help. I feel like it can't be right to do nothing.
The following are excerpts from "Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men', a book on DV written by Lundy Bancroft. This is from the sub-section, How to Support An Abused Woman.
The abuser pressures her severely.
You should be patient. Remember that it takes time for an abused woman to sort out her confusion and figure out how to handle her situation. It is not helpful for her to try to follow your timetable for when she should stand up to her partner, leave him, call the police, or whaterever step you want her to take. You need to respect her judgement regarding when she is ready to take action - something the abuser never does.
The abuser talks down to her.
You should address her as an equal. Avoid all traces of condescension or supeior knowledge in your voice. This caution applies just as much or more to professionals. If you speak to an abused woman as if you are smarter or wiser than she is, or as if she is going through something that could never happen to you, then you inadvertently confirm exactly what the abuser has been tellilng her, which is that she is beneath him. Remember, your actions speak louder than your words.
The abuser thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does.
You should treat her as the expert on her own life. Don't assume that you know what she needs to do. I have sometimes given abused women suggestions that I thought were exactly right but turned out to be terrible for that particular situation. Ask her what she thinks might work, and, without pressuring her, offer suggestions, respecting her explanations for why certain courses of action would not be helpful. Don't tell her what to do.
The abuser dominates conversations.
You should listen more and talk less. The tempation may be great to convince her what a 'jerk' he is, to analyze his motives, to give speeches covering entire chapters of this book. But, talking too much inadvertently communicates to her that your thoughts are more important than hers which is exactly how the abuser treats her. If you want her to value her own feelings and opinions, then you have to show her that you value them.
The abuser believes he has the right to control her life.
You should respect her right to self-determination. She is entitled to make decisions that are not exactly what you would choose, including the decision to stay with ther abusive partner or to return to him after a separation. You can't convince a woman that her life belongs to her if you are simulataneously acting like it belongs to you. Stay by her even when she makes choices that you don't like.
The abuser assumes he understands her children and their needs better than she does.
You should assume that she is a competent, caring mother. Remember that there is no simple way to determine what is best for the children of an abused woman. Even if she leaves the abuser, the children's problems are not necessarily over, and sometimes abusers actually create worse difficulties for the children post separation than before. You cannot help her to find the best path for her chldren unless you have a realistic grasp of the complicated set of choices that face her.
The abuser thinks for her.
You should think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.
Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with "don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him, you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"
The above may be overkill, but I think it directly relates to the question you asked in your quote above. It may explain her reasons for pulling back from her friends and family. Besides, it's not uncommon for a woman in a DV situation to act like this. And, it's generally one of the tools that an abuser uses to gain and retain control.
I know you say you don't believe he has hit her again, but if she is pulling back from her friends and family, I guarantee you will never know the complete story of what goes on behind closed doors. I 'rarely' fessed up. And to this day, my parents don't know any details of what I endured.
The other thing that I wanted to briefly focus on is this:
PHP Code:
....but she feels that it's important to stay with him when he needs her because he's the father of her child. She wants to teach her son that you don't leave someone when they're in trouble.
Hugs to you for caring and wanting to learn how best to help your sister.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Green,green grass of home
Posts: 600
Hi,im in agreement with Best.For myself,i have goten to be closer to the sick person,who abuses,my friend.I make no judgements,give advice only when either of them ask,and even then i tell them the truth,that im only going on what i know,or learn,therefore they ,{both of them},dont feel threatened by me.Im in their lives to be helpful if i can.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by liveweyerd
A rare thing but I disagree with Best. While it is important to keep communication lines open without judgment, I disagree with praising an abused person for being strong.
Wow are you ever strong puuting up with his crap...most people would have kicked him to the curb long ago. I am amazed at how much abuse you are able to handle. With that comes her words of denial and justification.... I do it for the kids.
Yes I understand and it is to bad the kids need see his behaviors.
I wouldn't call it a praising of her actions but more so a standing beside her with understanding of why she did what she did. I would reinforce the facts of how bad his behavior is and list out what it causes as far as troubles for all.
Now how others in the family would reply...
I am tired of hearing about it. You are stupid to stay with him.
The contrast was huge. The communication remaned open between us and others started getting shut out.
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