FormerDoormat

Couldn't resist picking up a copy of this book because I suspect my previous next-door neighbor may be a sociopath (hence the reason I relocated a few years ago)--so the title caught my eye. And in one of those strange twists of fate, who do you think I ran into tonight with said book in my hand?...but I digress....

Anyway, it contains a list of 13 rules for dealing with sociopaths in everyday life and low and behold they nearly all of them are reminders of what we've already learned on this forum, through alanon, Melody Beatty's books, etc.:

Here's the list (I've included item 3 in its entirety because I think this one will be useful to many folks on this forum--if you want me to elaborate on any of the other items, let me know):

1. The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience.

2. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on (educator, doctor, leader, etc)--go with your instincts.

3. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has. Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But tree lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly. Do not give your money, work, secrets, or affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.

4. Question authority.

5. Suspect flattery.

6. If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.

7. Do not join the game.

8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.

9. Question your tendency to pity too easily.

10. Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.

11. Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.

12. Defend your psyche.

13. Living well is the best revenge.

equus

They forgot the rule about remembering you're better than they are - mind you that sort of underlies the other rules....

I prefere ol' Dalai's simple rule - treating people with compassion and where some people have very big problems if it gets to a point where you find compassion hard and become angry and hurtful then it's time fto get some distance. That rule is underlined by knowing they are equal to you, the same in that they also want happiness and want to avoid pain. He also reckons those people we find hard are a great gift to us in teaching us patience and REAL compassion rather than that given to gain a friendship we personally want.

FormerDoormat

Ah, the author says that some folks have conscience in it's purest form, and are exemplars of extreme conscience, such as:

The Dahli Lama
Muhammad
Jesus
Krishnamurti

The author is referring to true sociopaths--those folks who have no conscience, no empathy, no remorse--not folks who suffer from addiction. But I found the information useful, particularly item 3.

minnie

Item 3 is brilliant!! And truly life-changing if practiced. Which, of course, I didn't when I was with R. But I will hold that concept close to my heart and hope I never have to use it.

(I learnt about that book quite a while after I left R and have always felt that it would be a regressive step to purchase it - I might sneak a look in the library, though. I have no doubt in my mind that R displayed sociopathic traits, although I have wondered in the past if the no conscience, no remorse thing is true or if he simply buries those things beneath chaos, relationships and drink. I hope no-one I know ever comes into contact with the kind of behaviour I witnessed, or if they do, that they will remember No 3)

Thanks, FD

reader

FD, great post alot to think about. It kinda reminded me about something I read pertaining to the national sex offender register. It mentioned the lieing and the flattery. Strangely enough my friends granddaughter who is a single mom meet someone the whole family thought was a great guy. After a bit she moved in with him. When our local warning paper came out he was on it. Thank God she had never left her 3 year old little girl with him. Like your post the warning signs are similar, for all u single moms if he seems to good to be true he just might be. Thanks for the thought provoking post!!

equus

Personally I think if sales of this book were only successful where people actually knew someone with this disorder it would be unlikely to make profit. As with most thing in psychiatry there will be those who make their profit almost entirely from the myths they propergate.

I have yet to meet a person that I know for sure has less of a concience than me, I've met many people that act differently from me, lots who appear not to mind the hurt they cause but none that I know have less conscience.

Seeing people as my equal is more functional to me, I can use it everyday and need no diagnosis or ability to decide on anothers conscience or lack of it.

DesertEyes

Good points equus, but how do you define conscience? And once you have defined it, how do you go about "measuring" one conscience to another? There is also the matter that psycho-pathology is rarely total, most criminals would not fall on the "100% conscience-less" end of the scale.

As far as having met them, my grandfather derived great satisfaction from torturing children, and to my recollection never drank alcohol or used any kind of medication. He had a number of "associates" with similar inclinations. As an older child while living on the streets I came acrross the occasional "sociopathic pedophile" whom I suspect of having had no conscience. I haven't met any since then.

Perhaps such sociopaths are more careful around adults and disguise their behavior well, but when in posession of a helpless child they "let it all hang out". You may have come across them in your life, but did not spend enough time with them to find them out.

Mike

Kellye C

This was great! #3 especially! How many chances I have given while rationalizing and justifying the actions of another. I will definitely use this in dealing with any future relationships. Thank you so much for posting this.

Kellye

FormerDoormat

As I mentioned before, the book caught my attention because I had a strong suspicion that my former next-door neighbor might be considered a sociopath. And it further confirms my suspicions. I won't go into all the details of her horrendous behavior, but it affected me, my daughter, mutual friends, and her coworkers.

The most striking thing about her behavior is that after causing great harm--verbally, emotionally, and physically, she would show up the next day and act as if she'd done nothing wrong, expecting everything to be "business as usual." And was always surprised when folks rebuked her and turned her away.

She showed absolutely no remorse for any of her actions, including one occasion where she broke into my home while I was at work and terrorized my daughter. When the police arrived she was still there and out of control. My daughter was just 11 years old at the time. She thought my house was empty when she broke in, but finding my daughter there was no deterrant.

The For Sale sign went up the next day. I know sociopaths exist and based on my experience, I'm certain they lack the ability to feel remorse and have no conscience.

FormerDoormat

More information on Item 10: Do Not Try to Redeem the Unredeemable

Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses. At some point, most of us need to learn the important, if disappointing, life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior--let alone the character structures--of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has--to control.

FormerDoormat

Since you brought it up, Equus, here's what the author says about anti-social personality disorder:

According to the current bible of psychiatric labels, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV of the American Psychiatric Association, the clinical diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder should be considered when an individual possesses at least three of the following seven characteristics:

1) Failure to conform to social norms
2) Deceitfulness, manipulativeness
3) Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead
4) Irritability, aggressiveness
5) Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
6) Consistent irresponsibility
7) Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person

The presence in an individual of any three of these symptoms, taken together, is enough to make many psychiatrists suspect the disorder.

equus

FD - DSM IV is over a decade old - DSM IV-Tr is the upgrade.

It's not that I don't think some of it is very good advice - just I'm not fond of the the tendency to pathologise. Perhaps your next door neighbour was a sociopath, my point is more that the authors approach is to cash in on pcychiatry rather than simply write advice. She also adds to and interprets the word (from the quotes you've given) and uses, value laiden emotional language like 'unredeemable' - those do go against my own beliefs.

When it comes to serious offenders, those who hurt children, for example I personally have a long way to go but from the bits written here, hers isn't the path I'd chose to go there on.

megamysterioso

Thanks for sharing this FD. Number 3 is a great rule to live by. Unfortunately in my relationship, I think my AH was at least a 10 timer!!! At least *sigh*...

elizabeth1979

Yikes.

FormerDoormat

That my be true Eq, but her description of anti-social personality disorder (another word for sociopathic behavior) is nearly identical to what you posted. That's why I posted it.

She goes on to point out additional documented characteristics of sociopaths as a group:

One of the more frequently observed of these traits is a glib and superficial charm that allows the true sociopath to seduce other people, figuratively or literally--a kind of glow or charisma that, initially, can make the sociopath seem more charming or more interesting than most of the normal people around him. He or she is more spontaneous, or more intense, or somehow more "complex," or sexier, or more entertaining than everyone else. Sometimes the "sociopathic charisma" is accompanied by a grandiose sense of self-worth that may be compelling at first, but upon closer inspection may seem odd or perhaps laughable. ("Someday the world will realize how special I am," or "You know that after me, no other lover will do.")

In addition sociopaths have a greater than normal need for stimulation, which results in their taking frequent social, physical, financial, or legal risks. Characteristically, they can charm others into attempting dangerous ventures with them, and as a group they are known for their pathological lying and conning, and their parasitic relationships with "friends." Regardless of how educated or highly placed as adults, they may have a history of early behavior problems, sometimes including drug use or recorded juvenile delinquency, and always including a failure to acknowledge responsibility for any problems that occurred.

And sociopaths are noted for their shallowness of emotion, their hollow and transient nature of any affectionate feelings they may claim to have, a certain breathtaking callousness. They have no trace of empathy and no genuine interest in bonding emotionally to a mate. Once the surface charm is scraped off, their marriages are loveless, one-sided, and almost always short-term. If a marriage partner has any value to the sociopath, it is because the partner is viewed as a possession, one that the socipath may feel angry to lose, but never sad or accountable.

FormerDoormat

For Elizabeth:

In the book, the author describes the many behaviors often seen in persons with low or no conscience. Here's one example:

"You have no interest in power. To the contrary, you are the sort of person who really does not want much of anything. Your only real ambition is not to have to exert yourself to get by. You do not want to work like everyone else does. Without a conscience, you can nap or pursue your hobbies or watch television or just hang out somewhere all day long. Living a bit on the fringes, and with some handouts from relatives and friends, you can do this indefinitely. People may whisper to one another that you are an underachiever, or that you are depressed, a sad case, or, in contrast, if they get angry, they may grumble that you are lazy. When they know you better, and get really angry, they may scream at you and call you a loser, a bum. But it will never occur to them that you literally do not have a conscience, that in such a fundamental way, your very mind is not the same as theirs.

The panicked feeling of a guilty conscience never squeezes at your heart or wakes you in the middle of the night. Despite your lifestyle, you never feel irresponsible, neglectful, or so much as embarrassed, although for the sake of appearances, sometimes you pretend that you do. For example, if you are a descent observer of people and what they react to, you may adopt a lifeless facial expression, say how ashamed of your life you are, and talk about how rotten you feel. This you do only because it is more convenient to have people think you are depressed than it is to have them shouting at you all the time, or insisting that you get a job.

You notice that people who do have a conscience feel guilty when they harrangue someone they believe to be "depressed" or "troubled." As a matter of fact, to your further advantage, they often feel obliged to take care of such a person. If, despite your relative poverty, you can manage to get yourself into a sexual relationship with someone, this person--who does not suspect what you are really like--may feel particularly obligated. And since all you want is not to have to work, your financier does not have to be especially rich, just reliable conscience bound."


Sound like somebody you know? Perhaps your ex? Something to think about.

FormerDoormat

For Mikey:

Author's comments on childhood abuse:

"As a therapist, I specialize in the treatment of psychological trauma survivors. Over the last 25 years, my practice has included hundreds of adults who have been in psychological pain every day of their lives on account of early childhood abuse or some other horrendous past experience. As I have detailed in case studies in "The Myth of Sanity," my trauma patients suffer from a host of torments, including chronic anxiety, incapacitating depression, and dissociative mental states, and, feeling that their time on earth was unbearable, many of them have come to me after recovering from attempts to commit suicide. Some have been traumatized by natural and man-made disasters such as earthquakes and wars, but most of them have been controlled and psychologically shattered by individual human perpetrators, often sociopaths--sometimes sociopathic strangers, but more typically sociopathic parents, older relatives, or siblings. In helping my patients and their families cope with the harm done in their lives, and in studying their case histories, I have learned that the damage caused by the sociopaths among us is deep and lasting, often tragically lethal, and startingly common."

elizabeth1979

Wow. FD.
I sat here with me hand over my mouth.
You have no idea how much I needed to read this today.

I just cant thank you enough, this was HUGELY needed this morning.

BohemiMamaof3

This list is a lot to think about. Sometimes I've suspected that my ABrother is socieopathic, but how much of it is his addiction?

TheGirlInside

Yikes, FD!

I always like to read your posts...they're so insightful (oops, watch out for the flatterer...lol).

Anyway, the more I read this, the more I think of my non-A husband (unless the "A" is for a familiar vernacular of a certain body part)...he doesn't seem to give a damn when he's hurt me. Not that I needed any more convincing, but it does help for the purpose of Steeling my Resolve.

It also sounds eerily like my "best friend" from h.s. who seduced my boyfriends, ran my name into the mud, and raked me over the coals numerous times, with seeming no conscience whatsoever. I spent 15 long hard years being her friend.

I don't necessarily agree, however, with the narrative descriptive about being lazy...that sounds like any number of things, including an addict.

I minored in psychology in college, but don't know that I remember much. As I come to see it, a true sociopath is someone who wants what they want, when they want it, and if another person gets in the way, that person thus becomes dispensible. Also, a sociopath doesn't see human beings as fellow human beings, but rather as objects, like pieces of cardboard, to be manipulated and bent to the sociopath's will. Ewwww!! What the hell drew me to these people?!??

I describe an evil person as someone who enjoys causing hurt to another.

Just adding my 2 cents!

Kari