chess

Hello all,

Just wanted to ask if anyone has been throught this.

I've just recently started to work on my recovery and since it's spring and all I found myself having a crush on what seems like a healthy man and I'm clueless what to do. Not that I actually want to do anything.

So far I've been observing my own behaviour when he's around and find myself acting strange and displaying unhealthy behaviour patters like I never knew that I use putdown jokes. Now they come out of my mouth before I can even think and get a little embarressed. This whole thing feels like I'm watching myself from the outside and I see myself using the language I'm used to and behaving like going through learned behaviour patterns. I'm learning new things about myself daily. New unhealthy patters keep surfacing and I just keep wondering how many are there.

It feels like all I know is how to eat is with my hands and I see this guy using fork and knives and realize I'm not eating the same way although all my life I though my eating habits were just fine. And when I try his way I don't realize how fast I'm back to plain hands.

The thing that feels different this time is I don't feel no pull. I'm just enjoying having this crush and feeling lightheaded and happy. I did notice him kinda backing away a bit from me after witnessing all these strange behaviours of mine. Like being loudmouthed in a company when he's around. I don't know what I'm trying to say. The point is I feel like that duckling among swans and at the moment I'm just so happy that I've found a friend who appears to be healthy. Is what I'm feeling just a sign that I'm getting better?

GingerM

I would say that what you're experiencing is all good signs that you're on the right path to recovery.

1. Noticing that you say or behave oddly around others. This will not change overnight. The first step in changing old ingrained patterns is to be able to identify it when you do it. Even if you can't identify it until after the words have been said and can't be sucked back into your mouth, being aware that you're doing it will eventually lead you to where you have the thought, then can decide whether it's appropriate or not before you say anything. I know, I've been there, it really does eventually get to where you're aware of what you're going to say before it comes popping out and doing damage.

2. Being aware of 'put down' jokes. Often in families like ours, negative 'affection' was all we got, and all we knew. We came to equate negative statements as affection. You are now coming to understand that this is not the case, and that it alienates people. This is a HUGE step. HUGE. Did I mention HUGE?

3. The fact that you feel no pull and are able to simply enjoy the feeling of having a crush on someone is also good. It means you aren't leaping from one relationship to another, but rather have developed an awareness of yourself, your emotions, your responses. At some point down the line, you will be able to both be aware and also to act upon those feelings. But becoming aware is the first step. Good for you!

Yes, the feeling like you're floundering around is very normal during recovery. For one thing, we always thought our behaviors were 'normal'...and they were...for our family. But in the greater world at large, maybe not so much. So suddenly, all your old social skills don't work, and you are now aware of that. You're out of your comfort zone and trying to carve out a new way of being in the world. That kind of transition is bound to be awkward at best, and painful at times. Like learning to ice skate when all you've ever done is ski.

I liken my social skills transformation to a tool box. When I left home at 18, I had a hammer and a flat head screwdriver. Those were my social tools. Then I discovered (slowly over the years) that, while those tools are useful in certain situations, I definitely needed to buy a few more tools. Because while it's possible to use a hammer or flat head screwdriver to remove a bolt, really, a pair of pliers works much better. So I began learning my new tools, ones that were more appropriate for the task at hand. And just like in reality, having the right tool for the right job makes the job so much easier, having the right emotional tool for various situations makes life so much easier and more enjoyable.

I think you're doing great. It may not be comfortable, and at times it may even be uncomfortable, but you're heading in the right direction, and what you're feeling is totally to be expected - just as you might feel a bit lost if someone was to drop you into the middle of a country where you didn't know anyone and didn't speak the language.

Good on ya! Keep doing what you're doing, you'll find the right tools, get to know the language, and learn the social customs of this new country you're living in.

kennethhoff

Chess -

Yes, from what I see this is very normal. What does alanon teach us? Awareness, acceptance, action. If you are able to see what you are doing as it is happening, that is a tremendous sign of growth. You are becoming aware! Without that, how could you make a change?
So if you see what you are doing, now is the most opportunistic time to ask, WHY? Is it because this is the way you protected yourself in the past? Is this the way you learned? Is this a condition of low self-esteem? All good questions to ask. I have found that people are mirrors of what we are really like inside. If you see anger in another, it is because there is anger in you. The same for all feelings. Watch, look, and learn. Your on the right path!!!!
Ken

chess

Thanks guys!

I'm still enjoying the crush but did cool down a bit after realizing that the man drinks. Nowadays that's a big no, no for me. I was actually chuckling to myself and wondering if that one was one of the reasons I'm attracted to this man.

About put-down jokes. In the office where I work put-down jokes rule and that to me seems a bit strange. I have just filed it under "office full of survivors" syndrome. I'm betting all of us here have our own unhealthy families.

That one, we being mirrors to each other, struck a cord with me. This is one of the things I haven't yet understood. This and it all being about me. Growing up in my family pretty much left me to grow up on my own and now I'm clueless when it comes to boundaries and responsibilities. I know I don't understand this correctly and it's about me being codie but I don't know what is the healthy way to feel. See if someone is being crumpy or abusive I seem to think it's about me. That if I just acted the right way this wouldn't happen. How does that each of us being mirrors fit into this?

Another unhealthy pattern is the one my Dad's behaviour started. I feel like every concequence is something I should have overseen if not it's my own fault for not being well prepared. For example I have run into a couple of occasions resently where a friend or colleque didn't do what they said they would and I'm feeling like it's my fault for foolishly believing they would do what they said they would. Any useful tips on how to tackle this?

As always thanks a bunch for being there!

GettingFree

I think this is incredibly common among us codies. We tend to feel responsible for everything -- because as children we were made to feel responsible by others who lashed out to avoid taking responsibility themselves.

We were told over and over, "If we only did ...., then certain things wouldn't happen. Or "If we only DIDN'T do..., then certain things wouldn't happen.

So of course we began to believe it was all about us, when it wasn't at all. But others made us feel that way, that we were responsible and were to blame for bad things that happened around us, or to us. Is it any surprise that as adults we tend to assume responsibility for someone else's inappropriate behavior?

For me, someone else's inappropriate or abusive behavior is a mirror to the internal state that brings out that behavior. When I'm feeling grounded (i.e. not triggered by the behavior) I can look at what the other person is doing and understand that they must be feeling any number of things: fear, inadequacy, shame, guilt, repressed anger or frustration at other things.

This is the same as feeling responsible for someone else's abusive behavior. We assume responsibility for things that are not within our control. A colleague not meeting their commitment is not within our control.

I think I'd treat situations with a friend and a colleague differently.

If a friend consistently doesn't follow through, and I continued to expect them to, I'd want to take a look at my own behavior. Why do I keep expecting this of them? What can I do to avoid disappointment? What other options do I have? What am I afraid of by not asking this of them in the future?

However, if a colleague doesn't follow through, that's different. If you start assuming, even rightly so, that a workmate will not follow through, you might tend to overfunction and take on responsibilities that aren't yours. So what do you do?

Let their actions speak for themselves while ensuring that those who need to know are aware you've met your responsibilities. All you can do is let the outcome unfold and the consequences be met -- not by you, by the colleague. It can mean that certain tasks or goals or objectives aren't met when and how they should be -- and it took me a long time to let go of that. It's why adult children make such 'good' employees -- we're always quick to assume responsibility, jump in, and do whatever it takes for the good of the 'company' (ie. for the good of the family, mom, dad, !)

GingerM

GF, as usual, said pretty much what I would have said.

As for how to get out of the cycle of blaming yourself, one way I do it is to be rational (because, as I'm sure you're aware, the reactions you're having are absolutely NOT rational). I force myself into a rational, linear, cause/effect thought pattern and examine the situation as though I were an outsider.

For instance: coworker Bob says he's going to get you the information you need to complete the widget budget on time. Bob does not give you the information. You email to remind Bob as your deadline gets closer. Bob does not deliver. Eventually, your deadline comes, and you don't have your widget budget prepared because Bob never did get around to giving you the information (for whatever reason).

Now you're feeling like you should have found a better way. You feel like you should have known that Bob wouldn't come through for you. You feel like you should have found a different way to get that information because you feel like you are responsible.

Now it's time to step back, take a long deep breath, and do a little rational, reasoned thinking from an outsider's point of view. The best way to do this (as a self-directed exercise) is to ask yes/no questions, and do NOT allow yourself any explanations. If you allow explanations, you will get right back into the cycle of blaming yourself.

Did you prevent Bob from getting you that information? No.
Did Bob tell you he would get you that information? Yes.
Did you remind Bob that you needed that information to complete your widget budget on time? Yes.
Was Bob still unresponsive? Yes.
Is Bob an adult? Yes.
Is Bob responsible for Bob's actions? Yes.
Is Bob responsible for keeping his own comittments? Yes.
Do you have any control over whether or not Bob keeps his commitments or not? No.

When your boss comes to you and asks where is the widget budget, what then, based on the above little exercise, is your answer?

"Bob told me he would get me the information needed to complete the budget. When I hadn't gotten the information by xx date, I emailed him reminding him that I needed the information. Unfortunately, he did not get me the information, and thus I was unable to put the budget together."

Not that you, yourself, are incapable of preparing a budget, but that you lacked the information to put the budget together, and the lack of that information rests squarely on Bob's shoulders.

Going into that 'outsiders' or 'third person' observer mode is critical, as you can not simultaneously observe and experience. You can do one or the other. So when you catch yourself blaming yourself or feeling guilty over things you have no control over, try taking yourself into 'third person observer/questioner' role, and start asking those yes/no questions.

It's not an instant fix. You still may feel guilty (and you'll catch yourself feeling guilty even when every single question you ask obviously points to it not being your fault - I swear sometimes that guilt is almost the basal state for ACoAs). Over time though, you'll at least learn to discern between 'rational' guilt (something you should take action over) and 'irrational guilt' - the kind of thing you just sit with and say "yup, I'm feeling guilty over something that's not mine to own...again..." By acknowledging that your guilt is a throwback behavior, and not rational, and just sitting with the guilt, it can help break the cycle of blaming yourself. Rather than feeling guilty AND blaming yourself, you just sit with feeling guilty. Eventually, the guilt diminishes (although I won't lie, there are always triggers, and it will always pop back up - but then you'll be able to identify it for what it is - irrational guilt - as opposed to feeling badly about yourself as though you'd done something wrong. Irrational guilt does not come from doing something wrong, it comes from irrational places)

I hope I'm making some sense here. This rambling has been brought to you by the been there-done that emotional travel agency

best

Do you remember the end of the story?

One day the ugly duckly looked into the pond and had seen it's own reflection and to it's suprise, it had changed into a graceful beautiful swan.

I think you are getting better then better.
When the ripples in the pond stop, you will see your reflection and see how beautiful you are.

chess

Thank you guys! I'm feeling the love

I just typed a long reply it got lost due to me not being logged on?

Anyways, thank you Ginger for that Bob story. It cleared the issue for me a bit but I'm still a bit confused as where does my responsibility end or start. That question part was really helpful. I'll use that next time I'm trying to take responsibility over someone elses behaviour.

Can't remember what else I said in that lost reply but thank you all. It's so encouraging to hear that I'm not the only one going through these things.

Later

chess

Now I remember.

I have a hard time busting or rattling on people. For me to point the blame is unheard of instead I more than likely start excusing the behaviour of others. Growing up my friends used to tease me for being so understanding. Back then I didn't quite get what they meant.

GingerM

Your responsibility starts with the tasks you have control over and ends with the completion of the tasks you have control over. Any task which is under someone else's control, well, you have no control over it, therefore you have no responsibility for it. (In other words, you are not these people's parent, you are their peer. It is not your job to attempt to force them to do their jobs, no more than it is your job to make sure they pick up their dirty clothes or brush their teeth).

It sounds trite, but it really is true. You can't make someone else be responsible or do their job. Covering up for them, nagging at them, trying to force them to do their job - all that does is drive you nuts and take the burden of responsibility away from them. If Bob doesn't get you the information, is that your fault or responsibility? One might say that you have *some* responsibility to remind Bob (just in case it was an honest slip-up), but especially after you have reminded him, it ceases to be yours to own.

It's very hard for us ACoAs to let go of trying to own other people's problems. Only by logically and rationally walking through the situation in my mind, and asking those sorts of questions, am I able to let go of guilt which is not mine to bear. After 19 years of therapy, I am just now learning to let others reap the natural consequences of their own ineptitude, and stop taking responsibility for that which I am not responsible. It's a difficult adjustment to make, but with practice, you can make it!

Blame is not the same as responsibility. There is a big difference between the two. Blame is saying "this person screwed up, it's all their fault" and tends to be a defensive reaction. Stating where the breakdown occured in a chain of events or whose responsibility a certain task was is not the same as blame.

Examples (using the Bob scenario above):

Blame - "Bob didn't get me the information, it's Bob's fault that I didn't get the widget budget done."

Clairfying responsibility - "I needed the information from Bob to put the budget together. When I hadn't received it by xx date, I emailed him in case he had forgotten. Unfortunately, I still didn't receive the information, and was unable to put together the budget."

Blame tends to be a 'you' statement (or in this case, a 'Bob' statement). Clarifying responsibility tends to be an 'I' statement. "I needed information, I didn't get said information, therefore I was unable to do the task at hand." That's neither blaming nor accusing nor denying your own responsibility in the task. You stated your responsibility, you outlined what you did to attempt to fulfill your responsibility, and you stated why YOU couldn't complete the task. You didn't say "It's all Bob's fault", you just outlined the facts from YOUR position within the project.

Does that help any?

GettingFree

Hey Ginger,

This thread on the work situation is reminding me a lot of the very toxic work situation I am currently extricating myself from.

As you would guess, I'm in complete agreement with the handling of the scenario you set out with Bob and the widget budget. All makes perfect sense. Yet sometimes there's a curve ball thrown in -- and like the families we grew up in, even doing the right thing doesn't always get the outcome you hope for.

The way I knew that my work situation was very much like a disfunctional family is that I took the heat for playing this kind of situation by the recovery book. A new VP was hired and it became quickly clear that the man was terribly incompetent and essentially a fraud (not having the experience necessary to do the job), not to mention cunning, manipulative and dishonest. He continually dropped the ball, missed deliverables, alienated clients, made promises he didn't keep, made elaborate excuses, etc. etc. My hunch he's got an addiction or two in there as well (my guess is alcohol & porn based by behavior I saw on a couple of business trips).

At first, I cut him some slack. But then I stopped rescuing. One of the last examples before I went on disability (comparatively small in hindsight) was his non-responsiveness for information on a deliverable I should have executed with a time-sensitive delivery. Nothing came. I sent a polite reminder. Nothing came. AT 1 P.M. THE DAY BEFORE THIS NEEDED TO BE FINAL., he sends me an email asking if I could do this. I wrote back, "I'm sorry there is not enough time to do this properly now. I didn't get the information from you two weeks ago when I first asked you, or last week when I sent a reminder. Hopefully, next time there can be better planning" or words to that effect. I copied the CEO since this concerned him as well.

But here's the problem. The CEO has his own agenda for keeping this man on staff (he's vulnerable with the Board of Directors if he brings his incompetence to light). So what happens? Unlike the ending to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes, I become the identified problem. It is so much like a codependent parent defending and enabling the addicted parent. The CEO defends the VP, insists that I understand the VP has a lot on his plate, tells me to do my job (okay, like how?), and all done with condescension and exasperation. I was breaking one of the rules in any disfunctional family -- noticing what was going on and pointing it out. (And oh yeah, 5 colleagues have complained by this time as well. Two have since left)

And, so like any recovery story, my option is to detach. In this case, I believe the only option at this point is removing myself completely -- just as an Adult Child needs to move out to become individuated enough to have a healthy life.

Sad that the workplace can mirror our childhoods so closely. But informative!

gf

GingerM

GF,

oh yeah. It truly is amazing how much work scenarios can mirror our family lives. My current job is probably the most emotionally healthy one I've ever had (which might explain my 14 years with them). But I had a few doozies of jobs which had all the earmarks of dysfunctional families. Some I extricated myself from with great difficulty. The last one I got out of by submitting a one line letter of resignation ("Effectively immediately, I hereby resign.")

Yeah. Work can be just as toxic as any other relationship we have with people.

utopia

x

utopia

i think its important to use the steps in all my affairs. and what im picking up from this thread is an issue of responsibility and boundaries.

for me, steps 4, 5, 6 and 7 are all about the process of taking on what IS MY responsibility. for me that has been self-care and self-love and protection. its up to me to tell someone when their behaviour is inappropriate towards me, even if they were only joking. i found it really hard to place boundaries in the past because i had no sense of self. i didnt know who i was, i had no sense of right and wrong, no sense of values or what i wanted in life, deeply and truly i just really didnt know. id blocked out so much FEELING in my body and my life. i felt so weird in crushes and other situations even in my early recovery because i was being presented with FOREIGN feelings.

i didnt know that i could have feelings and not act upon them, i didnt know that i didnt have to be 100% honest all the time about my feelings. most of all i had no concept that I had POWER over myself, that i had choices and the freedom to do what i wanted much more than i realised.

that sense of watching myself doing a behaviour (for me) is a classic trait of being in a shame-based family. my hypervigliance and over analytical mindset came from feeling UNSAFE in my own family environment, something that stuck with me in future relationships and jobs. sometimes things felt even less safe is there wasnt a slight discomfort to life. step 4 opened and continues to open me to who i am, not who the mask is, that shell i developed to survive growing up in an alcoholic home. theres a great sense of personal power in that step for me. for me step 4 begins the process to knowing where i end and where others begin whilst also seeing us as equal and both a part of the higher power that helps me. (a lot!)

people have NO RIGHT to abuse me and i have no right to abuse them. theres this strange assertive approach which doesnt use guilt trips or violence, some sort of healthy interaction, im getting there even if sometimes i come across people who have nothing postive to contribute to an interaction. sometimes i have a part in it, sometimes its not my shite, but its never ALL MY FAULT. back to step 1.

chess

That's me right there. Recently I have felt like there is this huge cap in my life with all the stuff parents normally teach their kids. My sense of right and wrong is so messed up and for the benefit of others. I certainly am not aware of my own power and choices yet. Actually at the moment I think I'm on some kind of mission to prove myself that bad choices are all that I can make. I wonder where's that coming from...




That's another think that puzzles me. Somehow I have taken this black and white approach to lying or what I see as lying. I feel compelled to tell the truth and feel like others abuse this trait. There was this one person who kept asking me personal stuff that I did not want to share and I felt bad if I told since I did not like this person and if I didn't tell I felt bad too since I was keeping secrets and felt like I was lying. How strange is that?

Thank you everyone for your comments. This has been enlighning

Later,

Chess

GingerM

Not at all strange, it sounds perfectly normal for an ACoA. My sister and I also backlashed against the secret keeping and lying thing (isn't that what you do in an alcoholic family? hide all the skeletons in the closet...don't let anyone know, try to get A in reasonable shape so no one really knows what's going on?)

I finally learned how to answer those questions: tell the truth. Tell the person "I'm not comfortable telling you my personal information." If they try to put pressure on you, just repeat the same sentence again in the same tone of voice. Each time they needle you for information (because people like that do that...those people don't understand boundaries either), just repeat that exact same sentence in the exact same words.

You are not lying to them, you are telling them the absolute positive truth. You simply AREN'T comfortable telling them your personal information. You aren't secret keeping, everyone is allowed to set boundaries and no one is required to be transparent to every single person who beebops into their lives. It's actually very UNhealthy to be transparent like that, it means you have no boundaries at all with anyone.

I recently had a chat session with a friend of mine on what to say to two people who get engaged when I see red flags and a future divorce down the line for them. How can I say the truth without being mean? My answer now is "I wish you all the luck in the world and hope that you are happy together." It's a true statement, which doesn't imply that I'm giving my blessing to their marriage, while satisfying the social custom of wishing the couple well. I'm not lying...I do wish them luck, and I do hope they're happy. I don't think they have much chance, which means they'll need all the luck they can get. But I have framed it in a socially acceptable manner.

We grew up HAVING to lie and keep secrets, and we hated it then. As adults, we backlashed to that, and refused to lie. Now "all" you need to do is figure out how to tell the truth in a socially acceptable manner (heh, "ALL"...it sounds so simple!)

utopia

i used to think i was doomed to bad choice making because i was never trusted in my choices. i was never fully supported, i was never encouraged openly. I was always warned, i was sometimes beaten for being in the room, i was sometimes abused for breathing, i was often present, an unforgiveable offence in my dysfunctional family.

a lot i had inflicted upon me HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. i never had the chance to make a free choice in my childhood without it being overcriticised, no wonder i had trouble trusting myself to make my own decision. I trust in my higher power first, the power that led me to the 12 steps and to this forum too! i begin to trust myself when i work those steps and part of that is realising im not inherently bad, that i am human and that I am a pretty nice person actually and also that it is my responsibility to surivive and take care of me, to NOT self-destruct and to choose life instead of death, peace instead of anxiety, courage instead of pure fear, but mostly choose to see myself with love and a slow gentleness that i can only compare to the way my higher power sees me. a whole person precious and free.

chess

Thanks for sharing. Been there and even bought the t-shirt!

These days I'm doing an excellent job at critizing me myself ! And it's usually brutal. I still feel like everyone else knows everything better than me. What can I do to change that?

GingerM

Can you rationally think of things that you do better than other people? They don't have to be big things, simple stuff, like you're good with animals or you can wash windows without leaving streaks? Or ask someone you trust to name off things about you that they admire.

One thing I KNOW you're better at than the majority of people on the face of this earth: looking inside yourself to see what's causing your discomfort. It is a skill that very few adults have - most choosing to blame their feelings on external causes rather than internal ones. So there's at least a start for you. I don't know you well enough to offer other things, but at least in that one area, you know better than most other people.

I, too, have difficulty in seeing my strengths, or in not diminishing them even if I do see them. I am very good at organizing. Extremely good at it. It's something my husband is envious of. I'm extraordinarily efficient. Something many of my coworkers are in awe of. But I dismiss these positives by saying things like "well, they could be like that if they tried." I'm just now slowly learning that really they couldn't. It helps that my husband reinforces me by telling me not to downplay my strengths on a regular basis

Then, when you start beating up on yourself, remind yourself of those things that you are good at. Or things that show what you're made of.

I took up piano at the age of 37. While I will never be a concert pianist, I can hold my head high and say "not many people my age would start learning a new instrument", so I try to applaud myself for my courage/willingness to expose myself as not being perfect.

utopia

i try to let go of being better, or knowing better but embracing the gifts i do have. comparing sets me up for failure and self-pity