Clark

I just came upon this quote from another poster on another thread:

"The actual statistics show that NO program is better than any program. Did you know that?"

This really interests me. What statistics? How were they compiled since the people who aren't in some sort of formal program would just fall through the crack . . . no pun intended.

Frankly I'm confused about AA. I hate the meetings. I have always hated the meetings. It's pretty obvious why alcoholism is listed in the DSM as a "personality disorder"--heehee. But then I don't like church groups or any other groups, for that matter. So I have always figured that not liking AA meetings was just my problem, and if I wanted to work at it, I could overcome it. Since meetings are not my idea of "quality time", I didn't bother.

OK, so I think the meetings suck (for me). However, The AA program is not just the meetings. The AA program saved my life--literally. I went to a whole lot of meetings in the beginning. I bought the books. I was blessed with a GREAT sponsor. I met a few wonderful people who have been lifelong friends.
I worked my azz off on the steps. To me the AA program is these other things that I have mentioned, and the meetings are just a way to "get into it all" in the first place, because all of the concepts in the steps were totally new to me.

The meetings kept me reminded of why I had quit. Once that need was passed, it became overkill. For me, if I work the steps in my life every day, then I am getting the best that the program has to offer. I have no desire to go to a meeting.

So I have long suffered (sorta) from guilt because other "old-timers" are quick to tell me how I am not giving back by sharing in meetings. Well, I hafta tell you--people in meetings generally couldn't care less what I have to say. I think I'm not a very good public speaker; but the bottom line is that it's not worth the hassle.

So I feel like a multiple personality--I can surely relate when people say they tried AA (meaning the meetings) and didn't like it. On the other hand, for people like me the AA program saved my life and I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to "get it" without meetings in the beginning. I guess it's like school--we could learn everything about a subject by just studying the textbooks on our own with an occasional question to a "teacher". But how many of us have the discipline to do that on our own? Especially when we are in the mental/physical/spiritual condition of most newbies?

Have we always enjoyed our classes and our classmates? NO!! But we still went, got what we needed, and moved on if we needed to. Some folks find their needs are met by meetings, so they don't need to move on. Mine are met by the other AA benefits mentioned above.

Hmm, what's all this discussion of AA got to do with my original question about the "no program" being better. Beats me. I kinda got sidetracked. On the other hand, it's what came out so I guess it's what I'm supposed to post!

Cheers! Thanks, regards, Clark

Done_With_It

Why all these threads lately about AA or non AA.

To each their own. These threads seem to just be starting controversy about whose right and whose wrong.

If AA works for someone great, if it doesn't then move on and find something that does.
I don't know, I just don't see the point in people feeling like they have to prove their point, or defend why they do love AA or why they don't.

Seems we should put the energy into helping each other with whatever decision they make.

If this wasn't on the newcomers forum then I would have left it alone. But the newcomers need support the most. I don't see how this stuff is going to help them.

Just Done's 2 cents. Take what you will and leave the rest.

Clark

Well, I'm sorry you're upset.

I think my original question is worthy of discussion, however.

I also don't recall anybody else EVER mentioning that they could find their answers at AA even if they hate the meetings.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

2stop

I hear ya Miss Done.......... but if it brings controversy....so be it, I say..sometimes controversial subjects need addressed...I have been concerned for quite some time about people who think they can't have 'true' recovery without a 12 step program...........they are told they will be in jail, dead or institutionalized............IMO that is harmful.......I am not knocking anybody...........My brother is back in AA after a drinking binge....I even offer to go with him....I tell others it may work for them..............but we have to call each on our stuff now and then.........it's okay to ask questions....and debate.............I don't want it to be nasty or rude or condescending........KNowledge is POWER............I have much to learn.....and sometimes I learn by addressing something I have been avoiding because of a codie need 'to not offend anyone"...........If anyone needs information it is the newcomer......LOL...obviously we don't want to rile, inflame.......or press peoples buttons.BUT if we cannot address each with questions/issues about a program.well........that's a reason for concern to me..........but that;s also JMHO.........nothing more, nothing less......just me sharing my concerns.

just my 4 cents worth.....sorry! I have way too much to say this week....I will hush up now...........

Done_With_It

I never said I was upset, and I never said anything about your story.
My concern was for the Newcomers as this is the Newcomers forum.
Some of them get over looked by controversy and arguments.

2dayzmuse

This quote was made to me verbatim here, today.

I believe we have been infiltrated by some Rational Recovery folks, who like to come quote AA statistics and failures to stir the pot.

Whatever...

ASH

Hi Clark glad your here at SR! To program or not to program that is the question?????

Going to some AA meeting would surly not hurt most people trying to get sober. You get to see the success of others, there is a wealth of information on the topic of alcoholism, and most of the people are willing to actually do something to help you recover. When you are beaten down and terrified others reaching out with kindness can literally be a life saver. And guess what, biggest news, something else to do with the "happy hour" whatever time of day that is!!

There are programs that will work better for some people, (see alternatives all over this site with links), but the main problem is that of availability. AA is everywhere and easy to get too. Simplistically, it may be a good to use what is available when you start out and then as build on your knowledge or customize you own program as you go.

It really doesnt matter where we start to stop as long as we start to stop and then find a way to stay stopped!

lulu70

Hey Sweetie--How are ya doin'?

Anyway, I just wanted to agree with you that in my opinion, the Newcomers Forum is not the place to debate recovery methods. However, I also know that this is an age-old, on-going argument and it will always be around. I DO think it is important for the Newcomers to hear how different people have found recovery, so they know the same can be possible for them, but I think that can be done in their threads, as they ask questions, and should be offered simply as member's own experience, strength, and hope.

That said, thanks for sharing your experience, Clark. As someone who is currently finding it difficult to make it to as many meetings as I would like, I appreciate knowing that one can stay sober without them. I recently had an experience which has kick-started my step work, so I am feeling pretty spiritually fit at the moment. Thank you AA!!!

Wishing recovery and peace to all who come here--no matter how they find it!

Done_With_It

Agreed completely!~

Clark

"The actual statistics show that NO program is better than any program. Did you know that?


I think I see where I may have seemed adversarial to the above statement. Actually I am not. It was an honest question, not a trick question to push my own agenda.

The point is, I have never heard that before. It could very well be true, for all I know. But my impression is that there are very few people who quit without any program at all. So I think it's pretty interesting, and I'd like to know more about it. If it's true, and can be supported with valid evidence, it would be fascinating since there is so much talk that it's nigh impossible.

The problem is where do you find out about stuff like this except on a message board like this? If you go to the websites of the individual programs and groups, they're all pushing their own agenda. Sorta like churches.

What we need is the "Consumer Reports" of recovery methods. I think this is it!

Love to all. Thanks, regards, Clark

laurie6781

Clark I understand totally what you are trying to say.

When I first got sober I LIVED in meetings. I stuck real close to the new friends I was making. Everything I did was AA related somehow or it was a function with lots and lots of AA folks there. That was what I needed then. It was the fellowship of AA that recivilized me and showed me how to be a productive human being.

And I do believe this belongs in the "Newcomers Forum", its a way of showing the Newcomer that they will not have to "go to meetings the rest of their life." I know that fear is there in many newcomer. I have heard it from those I have sponsored and I have heard (read it) here on the boards, and I myself felt that in early sobriety.

You don't hear much about it anymore, but there used to be what was called "The Loner's Club" or "The Loner's Group." These were people that had no AA anywhere near them and it was all done by letters and snail mail. They wrote to NY and then those in the fellowship that wanted to participate would right the Loner and a bond would be formed through letters. No meetings, just letters and the BB of AA.

JMHO garnered from my ES&H.

Love and (((((to all))))),


It was the first 164 pages of the BB of AA that taught me how to LIVE sober. As time passed and I continued to grow and change my meeting attendance declined. However, I found I was and still do carry the message. I am amazed at the number of people I have encountered outside of AA meetings wanting to know: if they should stop, do they have a problem. how to stop, how to stay stopped, how to live sober, etc etc etc.

Today, at almost 61 years old, with physical disablilities that can and do prevent me from attending a lot of meetings, somehow I still manage to carry a message of recovery.

2dayzmuse

I can easily dispel that quote. I didn't have a program and it almost killed me. For crying out loud, if every alcoholic tried to quit on their own, and were successful, I think their wouldn't be many active alcoholics out there. We drink, we want to quit, we can't. WE NEED HELP!

I think statements like the above can be very harmful. Really, what is the point? No program is better then any program. You aren't going to convince me of that with any statistics. I think statistics are extremely inaccurate.

Done_With_It

Clark,

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to discount your question, or tell you what you could write.
I've just seen the thread about statistics get so heated~
Although it's in my best interest to not let the past rule the future, eh.....

Good points brought up here.

Clark

to all, and to all a good night!

Don S

'Better' is a subjective term. It is more accurate, perhaps, to state that more people quit drinking on their own than by using any particular recovery program.
If you want to 'rank' methods of achieving sobriety, here is an interesting analysis:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm
I have recently seen some studies that seem to indicate that the combination of counseling + group support in a recovery program is more effective for long term sobriety than either counseling or the group support on its own.

requiredfield

So do you feel as if you know everything you need to know about the steps? For me, and from hearing others experience their understanding of the steps and living them in their daily life is/has consistently evolved. And thank god there are people in meetings who share that with me.

I understand how you feel about open speaker meetings but I'm wondering if maybe you would be better off going to step meetings? Although I don't think you should feel guilty, I do personally believe that once you've got the gift or the hand of AA you should be giving it back, not only to keep it, but to pass it on. What if when you showed up for your very first meeting all you found was a note and a Big book? Could you have stayed sober?

I know that this wasn't the topic of this thread, but your post kind of triggered my thoughts. Maybe you would be better off going to and sharing in step meetings?

aloneagainor

I saw the post that sparked this thread, and even though I've not had much success in finding helpful meetings, the tone of that directly anti-meeting post annoyed me, because I do know how helpful/ necessary connections to other people are in recovery. This from a lifelong loner-type! The post suggested that people can, and most do, quit on their own.

[QUOTE}Actual statistics show that 80-90 percent of problem drinkers quit with no program whatsoever. ou don't see those folks because they never set foot in a meeting. it is assumed that those who didn't return are drunk and failing. But many of them just didn't believe in AA rhetoric, and quit on their own.
The actual statistics show that NO program is better than any program. Did you know that? [/QUOTE]

This post included other "statistics" clearly intended to dissuade people from the potential benefits of meetings. An addict looking for an excuse not to go to meetings might be tempted to believe that.

I fell asleep last night thinking about this very subject, and THANK YOU Clark for calling it to attention. The independent "I can do it myself!" attitude trips up even the most well-intentioned hopeful recovering addict, and keeps us stuck tripping over the same loop of insanity. Not without OUTSIDE PERSPECTIVE can we get outside our own convoluted thinking and begin to recover. Mulitple ways to do that, but they all involve other people, thinking outside one's own convictions.

Don S

It is true that most people (a majority) can and do quit 'on their own' -- that is, without joining any specific recovery program or going to meetings. They often report finding support other ways -- family and friends, counseling, doctors, etc. Not to say meetings aren't beneficial for some, but they aren't necessary for everyone. Online peer support and forum boards are also very useful.
We all differ in what works for us. Here is some information on 'what works' according to reviews of various studies:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

From another extensive study on 'self-remission':

"Stall and Biernacki proposed a three-stage model of spontaneous remission….

The initial stage of the model involves finding the resolve or motivation [from] a handful of initiating factors--medical problems, pressure from family and friends to stop using, extraordinary events, financial problems--that account for over half the reasons cited by self-remitting alcohol, tobacco, and other drug abusers….

The second stage … consists of a public pronouncement to quit. … Finding substitute activities, replacing old associations with new ones, developing nondrug recreational/leisure interests, and changing one's place of residence….

The third or maintenance stage … [is] ongoing social support, a growing sense of self-confidence and willpower, and the discovery of life meaning through religion, education, physical exercise, and identity."

You can see any number of ways a recovery group such as SOS, LifeRing, Women for Sobriety, AA, or SMART Recovery could help sustain that individual effort. But there are other ways as well.

Kellye C

My own experience:

No program - meant I was still trying to control it on my own. I tried this for a year and almost died in the process. I was sick, miserable, at cross purposes with myself and others.

Program - Meant I admitted I couldn't control it on my own, sought help from others who had been freed from the obsession to drink, got sober and am learning how to live life without the need to hide, be buzzed or literally passed out.

My program is AA. I recognize and respect that there are other programs, methods, whatever you want to call them. If the result is getting sober then do whatever works for you.

I'm thankful for my program. I do live the AA meetings and functions as I feel I need that in my early sobriety. Will I make as many meetings 5 or 10 years down the line? Will I even be SOBER 5 or 10 years down the line. Don't know and thankfully don't have to worry about that TODAY.

Hugs,
Kellye

BigSis

Mr. Big and I both quit drinking in 1983 without a program.

I got into 12-step via Alanon 23 years later when both kids developed addiction.

Working a 12-step program has helped me understand some things about my childhood, my coping skills, my survival tools and how I interact in the world. It is a valuable program that I do not want to live without.

But I didn't need it to get sober... what I needed to get sober was:

A desire to quit
A change of environment (drastic and complete, for me)
An ongoing support of my choice to stay sober
Reassessment of that choice

I got those things through the life I chose, my family and other supports.

What didn't get "fixed" were my obsessions

I overeat, overwork, drive too much, spend too much money, gamble too much), worry too much, get enmeshed in projects and people.

I have gained an awareness of these other obsessions through a 12-step program. I also believe I could have ... and eventually would have... gained awareness of these through individual counseling and other support groups (like Weight Watchers, and church, for example).

I love 12-step, but I do see other ways that work and support anyone who can find what fits for them.