Alcoholism. Disease or weakness?
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Alcoholism. Disease or weakness?
I know there are alot of alanon supporters here, and alot of AA supporters here and I do not wish to upset anyone... I am just trying to figure things out.
I am having a difficult time believing that alcoholism is any different than any other addiction out there. (drugs, etc). Therefore, I have a problem understanding that it is not a matter of self control and will power. Everyone has things that they might like to do, but know that if they did it to extremes it could turn into a problem. So we avoid these things, Why don't A's? Why do they get a free pass to screw up everyones lives around them, and then cry "it's a disease?" I'm not buying it. I am also not buying the idea of not being able to tell the A not to drink. Why not? If he isn't smart enough to get that it's ruining our lives, then I should be able to tell the idiot to quit drinking. I don't think I should have had to detach from my spouse, because he was going to do what he wanted no matter what. Why should I have to learn to live with it? He should learn to live with out it.
What about other options other than aa? There aren't many out there that are offered in my area. He doesn't like the area of town that the meetings are in... says it's not worth his jeep getting stolen for him to go to a meeting. I don't know... I'm just venting. I'm tired and feeling alot of pressure from AH to meet his needs right now.
I don't know... I'm just trying to get answers and figure things out. My Ah is supposedly not drinking for a few weeks now, but now that he's out of the fog.. I keep hearing things like, I didn't realize it then, I'm seeing it now, I accept the consequences, I know I hurt you guys.... Well. Dangit. Those wounds don't just disappear over night because they see the light!
I am having a difficult time believing that alcoholism is any different than any other addiction out there. (drugs, etc). Therefore, I have a problem understanding that it is not a matter of self control and will power. Everyone has things that they might like to do, but know that if they did it to extremes it could turn into a problem. So we avoid these things, Why don't A's? Why do they get a free pass to screw up everyones lives around them, and then cry "it's a disease?" I'm not buying it. I am also not buying the idea of not being able to tell the A not to drink. Why not? If he isn't smart enough to get that it's ruining our lives, then I should be able to tell the idiot to quit drinking. I don't think I should have had to detach from my spouse, because he was going to do what he wanted no matter what. Why should I have to learn to live with it? He should learn to live with out it.
What about other options other than aa? There aren't many out there that are offered in my area. He doesn't like the area of town that the meetings are in... says it's not worth his jeep getting stolen for him to go to a meeting. I don't know... I'm just venting. I'm tired and feeling alot of pressure from AH to meet his needs right now.
I don't know... I'm just trying to get answers and figure things out. My Ah is supposedly not drinking for a few weeks now, but now that he's out of the fog.. I keep hearing things like, I didn't realize it then, I'm seeing it now, I accept the consequences, I know I hurt you guys.... Well. Dangit. Those wounds don't just disappear over night because they see the light!
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Oooooh, Lord knows I don't want to get into any debate about this one, but I have a big problem with "alcoholism as a disease" myself and have expressed that opinion once on this board already. It got quite a few people fired up although that was not my intention. 
You shouldn't tell him to quit drinking b/c it IS FUTILE and a waste of YOUR precious breath. There are only two ways I think to peacefully come to terms with the addict in your life--- you learn to live with it by detaching or you leave the relationship. Those are the only answers. If you live with it and still want to fight him on it, you will only perpetuate the vicious cycle for years and years to come.
All the best to you Ayers and I'm sorry that you're stressing out. Your AH needs to give you time and work on his own stuff. It is too much pressure on you.
Why not? If he isn't smart enough to get that it's ruining our lives, then I should be able to tell the idiot to quit drinking. I don't think I should have had to detach from my spouse, because he was going to do what he wanted no matter what. Why should I have to learn to live with it? He should learn to live with out it.
All the best to you Ayers and I'm sorry that you're stressing out. Your AH needs to give you time and work on his own stuff. It is too much pressure on you.
alcohol-kicked-my butt
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: oregon
Posts: 191
hey--
im an alkie and personally ive never been quite sure if its a disease or not--but being an alcoholic ican say, for me it was definately a compulsion--sort of like a mental illness--just my experience--take care
laura
im an alkie and personally ive never been quite sure if its a disease or not--but being an alcoholic ican say, for me it was definately a compulsion--sort of like a mental illness--just my experience--take care
laura
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Well, the title of this thread is likely to cause a firestorm. But I don't think it really matters how I choose to look at it. Disease, choice, weakness, allergy, whatever. That is for my husband to sort out if he chooses to. MY problem is trying to control others. That is what I have to sort out. That, and making choices that improve my life. I chose not to live with his drinking, I can choose to take him back, I can choose not to. My life, my choices. His life, his choices. If we end up on the same page with choices that are mutually acceptable, great. If we don't, we don't.
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Hello Ayers,
I'm sorry to hear that you're going thru so much hardship. Here's my opinion on your questions.
A disease is _not_ an excuse.
How about we separate the emotions from the facts? Here's the way it works for me. I have heart disease. My pump doesn't work properly. As a result of my heart disease I have to be very careful about what I eat, no salt, no fat, and so on. I have to excercise regularly, but only certain kinds of excercise. Climbing mountains is not a happening thing for me.
Is my heart disease an _excuse_ for me to behave in selfish, abusive ways? No. Is my heart disease an excuse for me to eat whatever I like (pizza?), to lay around and never excercise? No. My heart disease is the _reason_ I have to avoid salty foods and have to excercise, but it is _not_ an excuse for any kind of behavior.
What about will power and self control? Can I close my eyes and use super-human will power to change my heart so that I _can_ eat pizza? No. All the will power in the world won't change my heart. If I eat salt it will harm my heart, that's a fact.
I am also an alcoholic. If I drink booze my brain will shut off and I will behave in ways that are harmful and dangerous to myself and others. All the will-power in the world will not magically change my brain, just like it won't change my heart. If I consume those chemicals, my body will change, and that's a fact.
As a human being I deserve the dignity of being treated as an adult and be allowed to live my life in any way I want _provided_ I don't hurt anybody else. I have a heart disease, and in the interest of other people's safety I'm not allowed to fly an airplane. If I should choose to eat pizza I should be given the dignity to do so, but I should also be held responsible for paying a higher insurance premium.
If I should choose to get drunk I should have the right to do so, but I should also have my car impounded so I do not endanger others. If I choose to be violent I should be allowed to do so, but I should be tossed in a cell where I cannot hurt anybody else.
Am I making sense with that?
Mike :-)
I'm sorry to hear that you're going thru so much hardship. Here's my opinion on your questions.
A disease is _not_ an excuse.
How about we separate the emotions from the facts? Here's the way it works for me. I have heart disease. My pump doesn't work properly. As a result of my heart disease I have to be very careful about what I eat, no salt, no fat, and so on. I have to excercise regularly, but only certain kinds of excercise. Climbing mountains is not a happening thing for me.
Is my heart disease an _excuse_ for me to behave in selfish, abusive ways? No. Is my heart disease an excuse for me to eat whatever I like (pizza?), to lay around and never excercise? No. My heart disease is the _reason_ I have to avoid salty foods and have to excercise, but it is _not_ an excuse for any kind of behavior.
What about will power and self control? Can I close my eyes and use super-human will power to change my heart so that I _can_ eat pizza? No. All the will power in the world won't change my heart. If I eat salt it will harm my heart, that's a fact.
I am also an alcoholic. If I drink booze my brain will shut off and I will behave in ways that are harmful and dangerous to myself and others. All the will-power in the world will not magically change my brain, just like it won't change my heart. If I consume those chemicals, my body will change, and that's a fact.
As a human being I deserve the dignity of being treated as an adult and be allowed to live my life in any way I want _provided_ I don't hurt anybody else. I have a heart disease, and in the interest of other people's safety I'm not allowed to fly an airplane. If I should choose to eat pizza I should be given the dignity to do so, but I should also be held responsible for paying a higher insurance premium.
If I should choose to get drunk I should have the right to do so, but I should also have my car impounded so I do not endanger others. If I choose to be violent I should be allowed to do so, but I should be tossed in a cell where I cannot hurt anybody else.
Am I making sense with that?
Mike :-)
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Ayers, not to go off topic, but it sorta isn't
I think you said he drinks on average a 5th every day for how many years? A few, several? Then he quit within a week or two? This really throws me because I'm having a real hard time getting my head around somebody drinking that much on a regular basis for 3 or 4 or more years just quitting without detox, a 28 day inpatient treatment center and intensive aftercare. Just getting his BAC back to zero would be a phenomenal accomplishment while still going to work everyday…
I think compulsion would be a good way to think of an active alcoholics relationship w/ booze. I've seen it defined many times as compulsive drinking. How many folks do you have beaten a compulsion as quickly and easy as it appears your husband tells you he has?
I think you said he drinks on average a 5th every day for how many years? A few, several? Then he quit within a week or two? This really throws me because I'm having a real hard time getting my head around somebody drinking that much on a regular basis for 3 or 4 or more years just quitting without detox, a 28 day inpatient treatment center and intensive aftercare. Just getting his BAC back to zero would be a phenomenal accomplishment while still going to work everyday…
I think compulsion would be a good way to think of an active alcoholics relationship w/ booze. I've seen it defined many times as compulsive drinking. How many folks do you have beaten a compulsion as quickly and easy as it appears your husband tells you he has?
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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And another thought....
Well I kinda did this... in the form of a boundary. I could not live with an active addict. It was more than I could handle. My life was becoming as unmanageable as hers was. But then again, we had no children between us. Every one has their own issues to deal with.
Originally Posted by Ayers1995
I am also not buying the idea of not being able to tell the A not to drink.
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Nowhere in the dictionary does it say disease means a lack of free will, nowhere does it say disease to be a disease must not be caused by behaviour, or helped by behaviour.
A good start is how the dictionary defines disease and the ACTUAL diagnostic criteria for alcohol dependency and abuse.
It becomes a total nightmare to discuss anything where everyone is talking about different definitions of the same word while trying to figure out whether that words applies!!
A good start is how the dictionary defines disease and the ACTUAL diagnostic criteria for alcohol dependency and abuse.
It becomes a total nightmare to discuss anything where everyone is talking about different definitions of the same word while trying to figure out whether that words applies!!
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
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Even if it is not a disease as you are so inclined to believe....
What does your H's behaviour say about himself, you, your relationship
together, your family life...
The amount he drinks and for as long as he has IS an indication of something.
If it is not a disease and it is a weakness...that would speak volumes to me,
as to his lack of respect and value he holds on everything in his life....
What does your H's behaviour say about himself, you, your relationship
together, your family life...
The amount he drinks and for as long as he has IS an indication of something.
If it is not a disease and it is a weakness...that would speak volumes to me,
as to his lack of respect and value he holds on everything in his life....
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sussex, NJ
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Once again, people trying to somehow validate, saying it's OK, a behavior that is rude, obnoxious and distasteful. Why does it matter from the enablers perspective? If someone said it was a "disease" would it make his behavior more palatable to you? Would it be OK how he treated you?
I simply am at a loss at the amount of times we go through this over and over again. Treating someone badly and abusively should not be tolerated because there are underlying circumstances. If the circumstances were so bad that caused the behavior, they should be in a mental hospital wearing a straight jacket!
I simply am at a loss at the amount of times we go through this over and over again. Treating someone badly and abusively should not be tolerated because there are underlying circumstances. If the circumstances were so bad that caused the behavior, they should be in a mental hospital wearing a straight jacket!
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I know that I am new to all of the 'learning definitions' and 'trying to recover myself'... so I do hope that I haven't offended anyone.
If I have an addiction to chocolate, that will make me sick when I eat it.... but I love it soooo much. Am I going to eat it, or am I going to have the will power to not eat it? Why can't they have the will power not to chose it? I don't understand that. It's not something taking over them that they can't control.....it's them making the decisions.... It isn't as though they are driving by the liquor store and some magical power sucks them into it to buy the liquor... they make that decision.
Jazzman - on the issue of Ah drinking so much. I had some questions about that as well. Yes, he drank a 5th every 1 1/2 days of 101 wild turkey... for years. He's quit drinking, (or course as far as I know) and I haven't seen any detox symptoms other than he gets shaky. He says the shakiness is from being so nervous around me, and not knowing what to say or do since I've left... but I'm sure it's from lack of booze. He's not drank since towards the end of March.
If I have an addiction to chocolate, that will make me sick when I eat it.... but I love it soooo much. Am I going to eat it, or am I going to have the will power to not eat it? Why can't they have the will power not to chose it? I don't understand that. It's not something taking over them that they can't control.....it's them making the decisions.... It isn't as though they are driving by the liquor store and some magical power sucks them into it to buy the liquor... they make that decision.
Jazzman - on the issue of Ah drinking so much. I had some questions about that as well. Yes, he drank a 5th every 1 1/2 days of 101 wild turkey... for years. He's quit drinking, (or course as far as I know) and I haven't seen any detox symptoms other than he gets shaky. He says the shakiness is from being so nervous around me, and not knowing what to say or do since I've left... but I'm sure it's from lack of booze. He's not drank since towards the end of March.
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I agree that it should not be tolerated NO MATTER how people look at it. Disease or not. I find it hard because it seems like 'others' are holding the A blameless. Well, it's not his fault, it's a disease. Well darnit, it is his fault.
Regardless of it being disease or lack of self will power... it is unexcusable. That's how I feel about it. They are accountable for the things they do, the people they hurt and every drink they take. I've just got the impression that others excuse it for them... that's all. (this opinion may have just been from reading some things...)
I agree that we have to take actions in our own recoveries... Yes- live in a marriage and accept the alcohol... Live in a marriage and live -around- the alcohol... or leave the marriage... I get that. I agree with that.
Also back to a post up top whose explaining the heart thing who is also an alcoholic. Yes if you drink it changes the way your brain and body reacts. Doesn't alcohol do that to everyone? It changes our behavior and our brain. I am not an alcoholic... but if I drink I get sick, if I were an alcoholic I'd know not to drink.
Let me put it this way. A very long time ago...before having my kids.... I tried something a few times (illegal substance) and I liked it...ALOT. But I KNEW that it could be a SERIOUS problem, if I ever touched it again. I never touched it again. I had the will power to control that....
Ugg... I agree.. Ah is putting way to much pressure on my little brain. He is now apoligizing for this nasty email he sent me last night demanding things from me. Things were going along smoothly... then the bottom falls out from under me and he acts all pushy and needy. I just need some sleep.
Regardless of it being disease or lack of self will power... it is unexcusable. That's how I feel about it. They are accountable for the things they do, the people they hurt and every drink they take. I've just got the impression that others excuse it for them... that's all. (this opinion may have just been from reading some things...)
I agree that we have to take actions in our own recoveries... Yes- live in a marriage and accept the alcohol... Live in a marriage and live -around- the alcohol... or leave the marriage... I get that. I agree with that.
Also back to a post up top whose explaining the heart thing who is also an alcoholic. Yes if you drink it changes the way your brain and body reacts. Doesn't alcohol do that to everyone? It changes our behavior and our brain. I am not an alcoholic... but if I drink I get sick, if I were an alcoholic I'd know not to drink.
Let me put it this way. A very long time ago...before having my kids.... I tried something a few times (illegal substance) and I liked it...ALOT. But I KNEW that it could be a SERIOUS problem, if I ever touched it again. I never touched it again. I had the will power to control that....
Ugg... I agree.. Ah is putting way to much pressure on my little brain. He is now apoligizing for this nasty email he sent me last night demanding things from me. Things were going along smoothly... then the bottom falls out from under me and he acts all pushy and needy. I just need some sleep.
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It changes our behavior and our brain. I am not an alcoholic... but if I drink I get sick, if I were an alcoholic I'd know not to drink.
There is alot to it - the BMA and AMA aren't idiots, nor is the World Health Organisation.
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Location: Chicago, IL
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You stopped taking the drugs because you don't have the type of
chemistry, personality, compulsion to continue.
Some aren't as fortunate.
His behavour would cause me to feel pressured too....I would feel pressured
to stay as far away from him as I could.
His behaviour isn't that of someone who is healthy IMO.
Nothing has changed Ayers....why go back for more?
chemistry, personality, compulsion to continue.
Some aren't as fortunate.
His behavour would cause me to feel pressured too....I would feel pressured
to stay as far away from him as I could.
His behaviour isn't that of someone who is healthy IMO.
Nothing has changed Ayers....why go back for more?
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 782
I get where you're coming from Ayers.
I get stuck in it because I think that I do make excuses for his behavior based on the disease concept. A part of me thinks that if the disease is creating this much denial that he can't see through it, and as such he is making poor choices that include hurting me, then I need to work twice as hard to mastermind a plan to break through his denial.
It's easier for me to say, hey, this is totally unacceptable and I won't take it if it's not a disease. If he's really 100% choosing to hurt me, then screw him...I'm out! You know? That's what makes me buy into the disease concept...I can't imagine that he would be OK with hurting me that much if he wasn't in over his head. But it's also that disease concept that makes me feel rotten about even thinking of leaving.
I get stuck in it because I think that I do make excuses for his behavior based on the disease concept. A part of me thinks that if the disease is creating this much denial that he can't see through it, and as such he is making poor choices that include hurting me, then I need to work twice as hard to mastermind a plan to break through his denial.
It's easier for me to say, hey, this is totally unacceptable and I won't take it if it's not a disease. If he's really 100% choosing to hurt me, then screw him...I'm out! You know? That's what makes me buy into the disease concept...I can't imagine that he would be OK with hurting me that much if he wasn't in over his head. But it's also that disease concept that makes me feel rotten about even thinking of leaving.
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Thanks Patty,
That's exactly how I've felt today that nothing much has changed. I guess that's why I'm so irritable. Ugg...
I was very fortunate to have had the will power to stop before it was a problem.
I wish back then I'd had the forsight to make better choices with AH as well. His aunt tried very hard to get him to straighten out, but I always enabled him. I didn't believe it to be a problem....boy wish I'd had her knowledge back then.
You guys have a wonderful Easter weekend if I don't vent anymore today....
That's exactly how I've felt today that nothing much has changed. I guess that's why I'm so irritable. Ugg...
I was very fortunate to have had the will power to stop before it was a problem.
I wish back then I'd had the forsight to make better choices with AH as well. His aunt tried very hard to get him to straighten out, but I always enabled him. I didn't believe it to be a problem....boy wish I'd had her knowledge back then.
You guys have a wonderful Easter weekend if I don't vent anymore today....
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