Ceridwen

last week at the f2f alanon meeting, part of the sharing centred on how the people parenting children with a SO who were active alcoholics were doing more damage to the children than the alcoholics themselves.

I should have asked them what they meant because its been playing on my mind ever since, but I didn't and wondered if anyone here can shed any light on it because I've looked hard and I truly cannot see what I could be doing that could damage my son, I am the usual, good-enough, parent (other than, of course, staying with his father).

anyone help?

ICU

I don't know the context in which that was said. I would have to hear more of the whole conversation.

But in the meantime, the word 'more' as in doing 'more damage than the alcoholic' jumped out at me.

I do agree that the non-alcoholic parent (especially one that is not working a program of recovery or getting some sort of professional help) does do damage to the child by teaching him/her how to 'accept unacceptable behavior from the alcoholic' (and all the associated behavior that this implies) just by staying in the situation.

I don't agree that that is 'more' damaging to the child than the actual actions of the alcoholic as a rule. Again, it depends on the circumstances, i.e. living arrangements of each parent in relation to the child, is the A around the child alot, drunk in front of the child, etc. Too many variables involved to make such a general statement.

I would be interested in knowing what movtivated this person/persons to say such a thing. Could you do a follow-up with them?

One could say that by staying in that situation, you could be teaching your son that women accept unacceptable treatment from men. But, let's be fair - what is your husband teaching him?

Ceridwen

hi, thanks ICU - the share was in relation to taking responsibility for our own actions (isn't everything!! LOL) and I'm too new to know much about this person's circumstances - (not that I'd post them anyway) but I can't get a handle on it, everyone nodded when they spoke - but I still don't know whether if people disagree with a statement they actually say anything? I've not seen any of that going on - we all just thank each other for our shares and then add something from our own experience, the only thing I've heard said before in the f2f that relates to it is that children know what the parent who is an alcoholic is going to behave like, whereas the SO is uinpredictable.

I'm not sure I agree with this to be honest - I think there are patterns to both our behaviours, and periods of unpredictability as well. and I'm pretty sure that ALL people have this, addicted, codependent, or mythical beings without issues

Im not trying to play a "he's worse than me" game, or even the other way round - I'm just trying to pinpoint the things that I can do something about - like the arguing - I know that upsets my son when we are in a feud (doesn't do anything positive for anyone tbh) so I've tried to stop perpetuating the arguments (I'm looking at the patterns I slip into) and looking at my reactions when I'm gettting wound-up.

I can see your point about teaching them that unacceptable behaviour is acceptable, and that women stay no matter what you do (and that is not healthy). Can't think of any way to tackle that one other than actually leaving though.

I'll ask this week (slowly getting over my shyness!!)

toniapoland

From personal experiance coming from similar situation being a child of an alcoholic and my mother staying and taking the abuse and allowing the abuse to be done to me then I hold her more resonsible than my father.. Now I am grown and she's still with him.. He is nothing like he used to be like.. But I still wonder what life would have been like if she would have got me out of there at 3 or 4 yrs old.. Hope this helps.. Still in therapy..

Twinkle

Since I have been in recovery, so much about me has been reveiled. I feel in my own mind that I have done more damage to my children that the alcoholic (before recovery) since I have been in recovery, my side of the street is pretty clean most of the time, which is all I have to worry about today. Yes, I showed my children all about accepting unacceptable behavior, but I also taught them alot more. My focus was on the alcoholic so much that when he was out drinking or using - if one of my kids came up to me to tell me something or ask me something - I would tell that not now, I have too much on my mind. I was angry all the time, angry at the alcoholic, but I directed it at my children. If they did the smallest thing that I didnt like, I blew up - yelling screaming, grounding them - taking things away...or so depressed I did nothing but cry, curled up on the couch unable to move. There are days, maybe weeks - I dont know, that I cannot recall if I cooked dinner for them. I do know that most of the time, I at least tried to keep food in the fridge. I shut everyone out, friends and family, I told my kids to NOT talk about any of these things that went on inside our house... I taught them to keep secrets - to stuff their pain, that it is okay to be walked all over, stolen from, lied to and cheated on...
I am so greatful I found alanon, because regardless of whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not, I can be happy today - I can show my children my changed behavior. Today my children enjoy my company, they dont hide in their rooms wondering how mom is going to react today. They too came to alanon for several years... together we learned compassion and hope.. we learned that there are so many like us.. today my kids are on their own journey. One is in college, living on her own and tends to get into relationships where she can practice her own co-dependant behaviors. The other will be graduating this year - something I never thought would happen. At 13 yrs old she became a cutter - her way to deal with her pain, at 15 yrs old she tried to commit suicide - a few months after that, she made a bad choice of going to a party and drinking and was raped, and within 6 months from then, she was involved in a car accident, that took her best friends life - a man in the program that was like a father to her. She could not function very well emotionally and we had to remove her from school for a year - and in a little more than a month, she will be graduating. This program in awesome, my higher power does so much for me, more than I would of ever thought about asking for. My program has taught me to quit focusing on the alcoholic and see my part in things - clean up the damage I have done and to change my attitude and my behavior. If I can do these things and allow God to take care of the rest, my life will be good regardless of the storms.. Serenity is not freedom from the storm, but peace amid the storm...
Penny

Ceridwen

thankyou tonia and twinkle, both VERY powerful shares, and have given me much to think about. My son has (I honestly think rarely) borne the brunt of misdirected anger, but far more than that has had a depressed mother, I have a tendency to internalise stuff. I was diagnosed with post-natal depression 6 months after having him. I've no idea if I would have had this if i'd been living with someone who wasn't an alcoholic, or if I wasn't the sort of person who choses to live with an alcoholic (if you see what I mean) but I know that neither of those things helped, and the what-ifs are sort-of pointless.
I still have a lot of guilt about this period, which I know is a totally useless response, I did the best I could at the time with the knowledge I had then, I dragged myself out of the mire and got better - I need to focus on doing things better now.

I've failed to see alot of the examples I'm setting him, I have to lead by example, not keeping secrets, not internalising pain, not isolating myself, not accepting lies, hurt, stealing etc. not focussing on the alcoholic person. I don't want him to learn the same behaviours that I learned (addiction played no part in my upbringing, but none-the-less I learned a lot of what I am now hearing are unhealthy ways of thinking and relating to others)

(((((Tonia))))) - I can never know what you have had to endure and am so grateful for you for sharing what it is like coming from the position my son is in. please bear with me while I try to phrase this (I seem to be far better at getting the real meaning accross f2f). I feel sad that you hold your mother more accountable than your father because I desperately hope that my son will not feel this way about me. I am acutely aware that I have choices that my son does not. I can walk away, M does not have to be my husband, but this man will always be his father, and he cannot chose to go, or stay, he is dependant on my actions (and those of his father - who still has the choice to GET HELP). I know that the way we are living is not ideal - my son has no idea that this isn't the norm, in some ways he is blessed by this, he has no sense of guilt or trying to hide it (and I have always tried hard not to overtly do that - its the stuff I do without thinking that is hardest to change), he simply gets on about his business no matter how drunk his father is, and unconditionally loves him. But in other ways, the fact that he doesn't know that there are other ways to live is a curse, the insanity will shape his personality.

(((((penny))))) I have drawn a lot of strength and hope from your post, despite the terrible experiences that your daughter has been through, you all appear to be doing just that - going *through* it, getting to the other side - I cannot imagine how a person goes through this without breaking. Thank you so much for sharing this with me, I am constantly amazed, reading through these boards, at the strength of human beings and their spirit.

megamysterioso

(((Ceridwen))) You may want to go to www.empoweredrecovery.com and download the free ebook that the site has available. Once you've done that, there is a whole section dedicated to this very topic. If I can remember correctly, I think it begins on page 50.

Ceridwen

thanks mega - I downloaded the book when someone else mentioned it (minnie?) before, but had forgotten about it - I'll have a read.
lx

bikewench

I haven't read any of the other responses.. but.. I just wanted to share my experience...


My fathers abuse and hurtful ways to children were always very overt.
With my Dad.. I always knew which direction the shyte was gonna fly from...
So.. I could take measure.... and felt somewhat in control around him.


With my codependant mother though...
Her abuse was covert... and she couched it in terms of caring for us... so... it took me many years in recovery to sort through her dynamics with me... and figure out exactly was going on in my relationship with her... and how it impacted me as a child.



So...
A person doesn't have to be an obvious user to be the most damaging.

elizabeth1979

Its damaging to your son. Yes it sure is. Im gonna catch some sh*t for thism, but I dont really care.

Any codependent not in recovery who lives with an alcoholic (in recovery or not) and has children in the home, is damaging the child in some way or another.

There are millions of ACOA's who will all tell you the same thing...they were mistreated, abused, and ignored by both parents.

I was treated badly by both parents but the most internally damaging behavior and hardest to get my arms around, was like Bikewench said, by the covert parent.

I dont have enough recovery under my belt to be as objective as I would like about this so I will cut this short, but yeah the non alcoholic parent can cause damage too.

Irondoorknob

I cannot talk about other relationships, but in my family I can certainly see how my behaviour was equally damaging to our children as that of my AH. I was very angry and controlling. And there was certainly a lot of fighting going on the our home. I am now in recovery myself and doing a lot of amends with my children. Hopefully, they will not resent me overly much or be permanently damaged by my past mistakes.

((((Take care))))

IDK

LaTeeDa

Recently, in family therapy sessions, I have become aware of these things as well. My controlling nature impacts my children. I need to let go and let them make their own mistakes instead of always trying to prevent them. Also, I was filled with anger and resentment, because living with an active A really sucks. Not only did this make ME hard to live with, my children learned to share my pain (be codependent). The cycle is perpepuated. They see me miserable and unhappy, and they think there is something they should be doing to "fix" that for me. I have shown them that example by trying to "fix" their father. These are very difficult truths to deal with since all along I was convinced that I was the one doing the "right" things.

Also, being obsessed with the drinker leaves little time for listening, nurturing, and fun. Children need to feel valued, but if all the focus is on the drinker, there is no time to value them.

I am happy to say that I am now aware and working on these things, but it takes time and even though I am conciously choosing to change my patterns, the children have adapted to my old behaviors and are still trying to adapt to the new ones.

BTW, I only realized and accepted all of this after my husband was out of the house.

L

Ceridwen

Thank you bike wench (great name) and Elizabeth - no reason you should catch any sh*te for telling your feelings and experiences - I asked the question - I have to deal with the answers, and I am grateful for ALL answers.

I'm not jumping for joy that people feel harmed by their non-addicted parent, because I don't want either to harm my son, nor him to feel that I harm him.

the covert nature - do you mean controlling you/manipulation couched as care? - I don't want to pry, just trying to get a handle on things - I can see this is going to mean a lot of rethinking.

gypsyrose

My mother had married 4 different men by the time I was 10 years old so I had 4 fathers. None of them were alcoholics but most of them were abusive anyway. When I was young I was angry with my mother for making me go through those relationships with her... but then I grew up enough to recognize that my mother made poor decisions regarding men but she was a loving mother who did her best for me and the men were the bad guys. Sadly, the father that hurt me the most was the one who wasn't abusive... he was the only one I cared about but he left. To this day, despite the amount of abuse I received from other fathers, the loss of the one who didn't abuse me hurts the most.

What I'm trying to say is... we are all hurt by things that happen to us in our childhoods. No one can say what is the most damaging thing that can happen to a child. It's different in every situation.

I don't know anyone who had a perfect childhood. All we can do is give our children the best childhoods we can given our situations and abilities, all we can do is our best.

elizabeth1979

Yes. Also, like Lateeda said
So so true...

Im soo glad you are asking these questions...I wish my mother had done the same!
One very damaging thing I learned from mom was that my feelings, my wishes, and my desires were not really important to anyone and I was being selfish by even asking anyone to consider my needs. I learned that I had no business trying to focus on me was 'self-centered' and I should always consider others before myself. I learned that behavior such as lying, maniupulating, and rage are accepted and normal ways to behave and get what you want.
I learned how to be a world class nag, manipulator, and controller, all while never being taught that happiness was important...not happiness but perfection and image.
My brother, has learned how to be a liar, manipulator, controller to get his needs met. He learned this because it was tolerated and accepted in our home. My brother has in my opinion a drug problem. He is 19. I find fixer upper men to be with who NEED me because that validates my existence.

This all sounds very sick and it is. Therapy is a nightmare because its painful. I start therapy, quit therapy. I get angry and sad, and dont want to deal with it. But, all in all, I love my mom. I know she didnt know what she was doing. She didnt mean to hurt me, she meant to "help" dad and keep the family together.


I may be an isolated case, but I tend to think not. Its been said before that codependents and addicts have similar behavior patterns and I agree.

BigSis

Ceridwen...

For me to dwell on what isn't doesn't help me. And because sharing in a meeting is not a debate, I take what I hear there with a grain of salt (even when what is being said is from ME!... smile).

I did marry an alcoholic, I do have children.

He quit drinking (as did I), but neither of us got recovery - so yeah, we might have done a crap load of "damage" to our kids.

What helps me is my own personal belief that I entered this life intentionally and have challenges that will come before me. My response to those challenges is the purpose of being here. How I respond to those challenges is, in part, determined by how *I* was raised. Which I think I also chose.

So... my kids have their own destiny, perhaps their own challenges, and perhaps they actually chose to be in my family. There is a saying around the tables - "God has no grandchildren." For me that means accepting that my kids have their OWN destiny and their own Higher Power to see them through.

I don't KNOW that that I need to suddenly divorce their dad because there is no proof that by doing so I will magically elminate alcoholism and its effects from their lives.

And it is my belief that often the divorce itself can be more damaging than staying in and trying to grow a better relationship. Unless, of course, there is abuse - a whole different issue, in my mind.

I believe that alcoholism is hereditary. My kids were already predestined to have a tendency to be alcoholic/addict. Studies show that with ONE alcoholic parent, kids have four times the chance of becoming alcoholic themselves. My kids had two.

I do not believe that staying married to an alcoholic, active or not, particularly changes some of the outcomes. I think that by the time we figure out whether we are alcoholic, we have often already had children... and passed on the tendency.

There are twin studies (no, I don't have them handy - but they talked about them at my kids' rehabs) that showed identical twins raised apart had the same rate of addiction as EACH OTHER - no matter what environment they were raised in. To me, that says that environment has a smaller impact than biology.

Are codependents born or raised? Did I inherit my dad's codependent tendencies along with his outgoing personality, or learn them by watching? When I see those same tendencies in a great neice and great nephew who never met my dad, do I assume they also were nearly exactly influenced by his granddaughter (who's personality doesn't seem to me to be anything like dad's). The tendency to be shy is inherited... why not the tendency to be codependent?

Probably, it is some combination of nature and nurture.

Off my box, now. All this is only my opinion...

LaTeeDa

No, SE, I don't think you are an isolated case. I learned these very same things from my parents.

I realize that my parents didn't have the awareness or tools available to them that I have available to me. I also recognize that there is a certain predisposition to certain behaviors that is carried in our genetic makeup. Also, each persons destiny is their own and will unfold in the way that it was meant to be.

Knowing all this, I can choose to "unlearn" certain behaviors that are not healthy and teach my children healthy behaviors as well. In fact, I am obligated to do this now that I have the awareness and ability to do so. I have no control over their ultimate destiny, but I do have the respsonsibility to do the best I can with what I have.

L

gelfling

My past experience...my son became my friend and shoulder to cry on when Daddy didn't come home. He was 5 years old. Now, if that wasn't enough to screw him up...He also knew that when daddy didn't come home on Friday nights, we went to Baskin-Robbins for an ice cream cone. He got to the point of hoping AH wouldn't so he could get his treat that was supposed to replace the promises made the night before.

There are so many different ways we screw up our kids and don't realize it. I think you're wonderful for going to alanon and learning now. Not when they're grown up and suffering from any psychological disorders or alcoholism/addiction.

BTW...my son is 26 and a recovering alcoholic.

Irondoorknob

<title>Mozilla WYSIWYG</title>

Quote:

BTW, I only realized and accepted all of this after my husband was out of the house.

This was certainly true in my case. I did not see the damage I was causing until I quit focussing on my AH. Now MY fog is lifting and I see how I need to change in order to break the cycle with my children.

I am pleased to find this thread. Often we still are focused on the A's in our lives, even on these threads. So I am happy to see the attention turned towards others, especially our children.

(((Take care))))

IDK

Ceridwen

thanks everyone - didn't reply earlier, as actually parenting my son had to take precedence over thinking about how to do it better (LOL).

I am going to have to think about this a lot as I don't have the tools to parent in any way other than the way I do, and examining that will be time consuming - ever wish you could freeze time so that you could learn the lessons and then go ahead with life?