RisingPhoenix

We've probably heard that old adage thrown around in several 'recovery' programs - here, there and everywhere- ..... that definition of insanity of repeating the same behavior over and over and over and expecting different results.

Yeah... the one that makes you wince because "Hm, yeah, er, um, that's me..... I did that."

<<<<< RP has now entered I FEEL LIKE A FOOL stage>>>>>>

Well, here's another one.

Insanity: Trying to have a normal relationship with an 'abonormal' person."

or

"Trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense."

Of course, that was long ago (ahem) because it's really starting to make sense now.

"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they really are." -Marcus Aurelius

Sorry. Throwing quotes left and right. I'm at work and these flow charts make my brain whine for creativity.

Good Night. Thanks for listening to me sound off this alarm clock in my head.

Zoey

I for one love quotes, Good Night, have a good restfull night.

megamysterioso

Oh yes, I'm quite acquainted with the "I feel like a fool" stage. Get it off your chest RP--- talking out loud is GOOD. Flow charts would bore me to tears too. Hang tough.

Cat3

One foot in front of the other, don't look back and stay strong. Sleep well...

equus

RP - Can I ask a huge level of trust?

I'm asking you to trust me that what I say about one of those quotes I'm NOT saying about you. I have said so many things I later understood better and regret - I learned because people cared enough to tell me - I'm not even the tiniest bit offended by you but I am by one of the above. I'll do my best to explain why.

I have a father with tourettes (no - he doesn't swear or shout), a brother with mild autism, a husband who has to work to keep good mental health, a best friend who's gay, a dear FIL who's deaf and I recently had the good fortune to get back in touch with another friend who has severe cerebal palsy. If anyone said the above quote in our house there would be a stoney silence and intense feeling. It wouldn't matter to any of us to weigh up what context it's used in because it's wholly wrong. The feeling amongst the people I know mostly wouldn't be anger, just extreme sadness.

RP - you are not offensive but that quote is. If you or anyone can really understand what I've just said I'd ask that you challenge it when you hear it and do nothing to spread it.

It serves no good purpose no matter what the context, each and every human being needs human contact, kindness and understanding. The statement contains far more insanity than people who have very normal relationships with abnormal people.

Zoey

E ..... Ya made me think, I understand, and I agree. On this forum I tend to not think beyond assuming it is all about someone under the influence.

Five

Well, if thats what counts as insane - then everyone pretty much is insane.

I guess we all better work the steps....

Five

Marcus Arellious also insisted that using reason was a key to happiness.

That using reason was a key to happiness.

That using reason was a key to happiness.

RisingPhoenix

None of the people, in my eyes, that you listed in your post, are abnormal. I do not consider tourettes or any type of sexuality or deafness or intellectually disabled to be abnormal. I work for Special Olympics and have for 3 years so no need to deliciately and tenderly explain to me the difference between abnormal and normal.

Abnormal, to me, and in the context of my quote, is behavior that makes no sense, as in a normal relationship. I was not speaking of anyone's qualities or characteristics or genetic makeup. I was speaking of behavior. I thought since we're on a recovery message board, that everyone would assume that I was speaking of an addict willingly (or not - I'm still on the fence about that one) acting crazy and basically treating me like shite.

Sorry for the confusion. I forget that no one knows me here and that I would never DARE make a comment the way that you took it.

equus

I didn't think for 1 second you had intended it that way. Just that I hope sayings like that disappear from our language rather than get any new lease of life.

See - I can't define people as normal or abnormal. Behaviour maybe, occassionally - but not people. I know that all those listed above often get percieved that way, I know I don't have to face that personally but I still care about it.

It doesn't matter which way up I look at it it sounds wrong - perhaps because whole people just can't be divided up like that, even alcoholics.

That's why I asked for the trust - either you can trust that I'm not angry at you and that I know you didn't mean it like that or you can't. I know all the way to my innards it's the qiuote not you that I find all wrong.

I hope YOU thrive in SR and real life - I hope the quote doesn't!

RisingPhoenix

Okay... here's one.

I've arrived at his place to come pick him up and give him a ride to work, and I leave (in a huff of course) once I find out he's coked up and he chases me out into the street, stark naked, with morning commute traffic (he lives in the city), begging me not to leave. Would you call that normal behavior? Is that a person acting normal???

Or is calling me at 9am in the morning to give him a ride to work because "his car is broken" .... and then I get to his place and he's been smoking crack all night with the bass player from Frank Zappa.... and is supposed to be at work in 30 minutes. Is that a normal person?

Hm. What are the statistics?

Or I guess it makes me abnormal that I fell in love with an addict that acted so INSANE. Or I'm so pathetic and lonely and willing to settle for ANYTHING - even crazymaking. When I told him, go do your thing. That is not what I want in my life. I'm not goign to beg you to stop or to change. Go be who you are. But I am not staying in this and watching you." And so I'd walk. And he'd come back. "I'm goign to stop. I'm going to stop. I love you. I want to be with you." Does that make me abnormal that I listened to him and that I gave him another change *every* *single* *time*. Probably so. So, I suppose having a normal relationship with me would be impossible as well, because I acted abnormal in trying to maintain a relationship someone that was insane. So I guess I insulted myself too.

equus

I'm not suggesting your intent was wrong or that your thinking is off. It's the quote and only the quote that bothers me.

Honestly is it something you would want to see said more often or less often?

equus

I posted this last week - perhaps it explains that despite my life style I'm still learning and some things are still fresh for me. It's me that needs the delicate and tender approach, I just try to treat others how I would like to be treated.

Pick-a-name

Hi,RP:

That is what I took your post to mean, how you explained it above. To try to follow the usual "rules" with an active addict just does not work...........if it had, I doubt that any of us would be here. We wouldn't be "codies" and "enablers".....we would be "kind, generous people" who expect the best out of others. People who bathe their brains in chemicals are unable to be expected to act and think in rational ways......and to assume that they do/will is only an effort in futility. JMHO

It is not a matter that they are completely helpless over. The physical and other difficulties/differences you speak of do not in my minds make some one "abnormal", maybe challenged more in certain areas of their life and I would say that EACH person has those challenges; some are just more visible to the naked eye than others. For instance, my son has some very real learning problems in some areas, is gifted in others but the one handicap I think of in this context, is that he has a serious heart problem. No one can "see" it just by looking (unless you know what is going on) but it is there and so he has to make some adjustments in his life to deal with it. Is is "fair".....what is fair? That is just a fact. He can deal with it or not but ignoring the facts still doesn't change them...no matter how much he, I or anyone wishes it was different. It effects my life and our interactions,too....and I adjust to compensate.

Addicts have a condtion that make "normal" personal interactions difficult because it breaks trust. There is lying; intentional or not........taking their word at face value while they (or anyone else for that matter) are under the influence of mind-altering chemicals is just not prudent, to me. I've tried that, before I learned what was going on. It didn't work well for me. I still try it.........it STILL doesn't work for me. It is like trying to play baseball, football, etc strictly by the rules against a team that is NOT playing by the rules. Pointless.

OK, I know this, but I still find myself trying to make sense out of the nonsense.......haha. Some of us (like me) are just a bit more dense. We need a few more reality checks!

Equus: I DO agreed with what you said..just don't see the examples you gave as "abnormal", I guess. I was thinking along different lines.

denny57

I guess it's a matter of perception and personal reality. So much of what we are sensitive to reflects directly to people we have in our lives. I also do not see equus' examples as abnormal people. No offence taken, RP. Now if you use the word "********" . . . :-)

equus

Neither do I but it's not like I got chance to miss what many others thought - from the school yard up!

I don't like it, not for me, friends, my husband or anyone - not PEOPLE as abnormal, not being involved to mean insane.

I can't say this enough - it's only the quote, not the intention or reasoning, just the quote, and yes it is about the words.

rose petals

equus--
please dont tell me you are part of the people that do this politically correct jazz--i know we all see things differently, but sometimes i think it would be a funner world if we stopped worrying about words and make fun of eachother and be helpful to eachother--kind of like what comedians try to do--im a recovering alkie and even though im sober, i know i am definately at the bottom of the totem pole of society--i dont care--im ok--lol!!--hey that is just how i percieve things--but i could be wrong--who knows--take care all
Laura

Zoey

rose...I also understand you, in AA we learn to laugh at ourselves, and we need to avoid anger, but I hurt over some words.(thats me seperate from any programs)

Thanks for your reply too. Good to get all thoughts.

On here we say AH, ABF etc. I couldn't do that, as in AA we do not say anyone is an alcoholic, that is up to the person, so I always said "my hubby",
also he never said he was an alcoholic, I admit I dislike labels and some words. If a charactor defect or sin, then I am guilty (Smile) Time for another 4th and 5th??

WE had a thread one day where FDM said she was never going to do that again, she was going to call him by name, (Thanks FDM) many of us agreed, these are people we did or do love very much or we would be off happy with someone else and not be here. Well exceptions, sometimes someone grows to hate SO, but then need the program and SR to help heal etc.

I prefer just the initials.

I am not up on politically correct, I do not know about anyone else, but I certainly understand equus, and many others , you too rose petal, as I have not walked in your shoes or their shoes.

I still love quotes, kept one for years in my collection, then read it one day after being in AA a number of years, and thought, this doesn't make any sense, why in the world would I keep that???

denny57

Many times I have typed "my husband" and then backed up and put "AH." I think it's more for the people reading the posts so they know where you are coming from. I certainly don't talk to the people around me and say "my alcoholic husand." I don't see him as ONLY an alcoholic.

LaTeeDa

Funny, my husband's first name starts with A. So he is my A either way.



L