elizabeth1979

A friend sent me a link to http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...awa060102.html


I dont know what to think here. Opinions anyone?



Ottawa program offers drinks to homeless alcoholics


Last Updated Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:37:10 EST CBC News


Shelters across the country are taking a closer look at an Ottawa shelter that gives drinks to homeless alcoholics after a study suggested the program is having a positive impact. Dr. Tiina Podymow envisioned the program after volunteering with chronic alcoholics, including some who drank upwards of 40 drinks per day, including mouthwash.

<TABLE cellSpacing=4 cellPadding=0 width=220 align=right hspace="4"><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle> </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle>Two men in the program receive their drinks at an Ottawa shelter.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Participants in the Managed Alcohol Project were given permanent beds in a shelter and, from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m, allowed to have one drink of homemade wine or beer per hour, carefully measured out at a dispensary counter.

Now a study published in this week's edition of the Canadian Medical Association Journal is raising interest in the program.

Completed by the shelter's medical director, Dr. Jeff Turnbull, the study examined the program's impact on 17 residents. Most had been alcoholics for 35 years before starting the program.



His study found:

• Participants who typically drank 46 drinks a day before the program dropped to about eight drinks a day during the program.
• The number of emergency room visits fell by 36 per cent.
• The number of encounters with police were essentially halved, falling by 51 per cent.

Critics say there's no way to judge how effective the harm-reduction approach is because there's no comparison group in the study, such as people taking part in an abstinence program like Alcoholics Anonymous.

But Turnbull says the aim of the program is not complete abstinence.

"We always try to encourage people to stop drinking but we are realistic," said Turnbull. "These are people who have spent 20 to 30 years on the street and trying to get them to stop alcohol is not possible at this time."

Others question the reasoning behind the program.

"If this works for alcoholism and you can keep your streets cleaner and safer, then what is stopping you from doing it for cocaine addicts or crystal meth people?" asked Brian Venables, with the Salvation Army.

Podymow says she understands the criticism.

"I would totally agree the best treatment is to stop completely. But if the person with the disease isn't going to stop, what else is the plan?" she said.

Tim Hogan says he'd like to give up drinking but doesn't think he's ready.

"I would like to throw that bottle into the Rideau [Canal] and never come back for it, but knowing me I'd throw the bottle in and I'd probably jump in the Rideau to go get it," said Hogan.

The program has been successful for others.

Wendy Cooper and Jimmy Smyth went through the program together and are now both completely dry.

"If it wasn't for the program I seriously say I would've been dead by now," said Cooper.

With a year-long waiting list to get into the program, several shelters in other cities are interested in adopting it.

megamysterioso

Yeah- I think I saw something briefly on the news recently about some place in Washington (I think maybe Seattle) that was getting ready to open one of these homes.

I guess the stats sort of speak for themselves. Canada has a very good healthcare system overall though. All citizens are medically insured.

In America though, I just don't know if I like the idea of my dollars being spent to help those that would naturally drink themselves to death (evolutioni at its finest) to "safely drink in a safe environment." How about finding that cure for cancer? If it eliminates a little crime and human suffering though, I guess it's not all bad.

Tough call- pros and cons involved.

robina

I saw this documentary on the CBC.

All I could think was: "If it was my daughter on the street, suffering end-stage, hard-core alcoholism, I would be very glad to have a program like this for her"

It just seems like a very compassionate thing to do.

Yes, there is free health care in Canada - doctors visits, all medical procedures, all hopsitalizations, are paid by the gov't. Nobody dies because of poverty or inability to afford health care.

The only thing not paid for is meds. and dental care.

denny57

I sincerely hope you are joking. If not, we sure do have different opinions on the disease of alcoholism.

megamysterioso

I don't feel sympathy for a "disease" that is self-inflicted and causes emotional damage, physical damage and possibly even death to others involved. Do you think if you had a child that was run over and killed by a drunk driver that you would sit in the courtroom and think, "oh that poor 'sick' person." No- you would want the person behind bars for the criminal that he/she is. You'd probably find out later that this person had 2 previous DUIs on the record to top it off!!!

People have choices. You can choose to drink or not--- it really is that simple. You can choose to make a life change and enter into remission for the rest of your life. Cancer patients, AIDS patients and the like don't really have this choice, do they? The physical disease will take them where it wants to. They can't "cure" their ailments by changing a behavior pattern!!!!

If people choose to drink themselves into a coma or OD on drugs then come what may!! It is natural selection. And no, I don't think human suffering is "cool" on any level. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but alcoholism classified as "a disease" is such a cop-out on some levels. But, that's where we are in our happy pill society... "FEELING STRESSED? FEELING TIRED?" ...Uhhhhh, yeah everybody does---- it's called LIFE, deal with it!

equus

Mega - disease debate aside, might it not be worth remembering this is a forum for family and friends of alcoholics? If not perhaps understanding that people are worth more than most of the stuff we spend our money on would help.

I seem to remember a documentary about a wet house in the UK - a place that has some similarities, it was very touching and certainly demostrated compassion and care. Perhaps for some the most it can offer is some dignity in the last part of life, but that's something good in my book. I think there does exist a point where the parts of the brain needed to overcome addiction may be to altered to function.

We live in first world countries that are NOT short of wealth, if perhaps we valued people over new tv sets there would be no issue of research having to compete, we are NOT short of money.

minnie

What about your choices? Seems a tad hypocritical to be so passionate about the choice of alcoholics when you have the same right to chose not to be in that siuation. I learnt in counselling, also reinforced in Al-anon, that I had choices. I may not have consciously chosen to be with an alcoholic, but sub-consciously I did. After I learnt about my reasons for that choice, I decided to choose a different path. What's your choice?

As for the Ottowa programme? Seems the results speak for themselves for that particular group of people.

GettingBy

Unfortunately, for alcoholics... it really isn't that simple. Ask any recovery alcoholic... and they'll tell you just how hard they work for their sobriety.
I'm sorry but this statement is just downright harsh and unnecessary. Do you really feel that their lives are that easily expendable? If so, why on earth did you marry your husband? If you think so little of him, why be with him? Why stay? Do you stay because being with him makes you feel superior?

How would you feel if say... you had a weight problem that you struggled with. No matter how hard you tried, you just couldn't lose weight. You cut your calorie intake to zilch, you tried every diet... all with no success. And your husband said to you, "Well Mega, it's all about choices. YOU CHOOSE to put that food in your mouth, and that's why you're fat. And you're being weeded out b/c you have lesser genes." What if it turns out that you had a thyroid problem that kept you from being able to lose that weight? How would you feel? Wouldn't you want a little compassion?

I'm not saying you have to "buy" the alcoholism is a disease model, but I am suggesting that seeing ALL others as human beings worthy of compassion can certainly help ones attitude towards life.

denny57

Mega, be very careful when you're making assumptions of what people have or have not been through.

Actually, we all have choices. I have personal experience with someone who was so deep in denial about her cancer she practically died from it. It might be helpful for you to do more reading on just what addiction is. Yes, an alcoholic chooses to pick up that first drink. After that, our viewpoints diverge.

I don't know your circumstances, age, etc. I sense an awful lot of hurt and anger. You must have some compassion if you choose to stay with your husband (?)

Take care.

guyinNC

Is there a difference between addiction and other actions not caused by addiction.

Example, who is more to blame. The alcoholic who drives and drinks, or the average person who goes out to bar, drinks and then drives home?

The law does not care....this is more of a moral question.

DesertEyes

Hello there mega, sorry I haven't been able to respond to your posts sooner.

I'm really sorry to hear about your husband's drinking, and all the pain he is causing you. I recently divorced my wife as a result of her addiction to prescription pills, so I have a little bit of an understanding of what you must be going through.

Actually, I don't either. I feel sympathy for the people who _suffer_ as a consequence of the disease, but not for those who _cause_ the suffering.

Well sort of. I actually have a terminal heart condition and am a recovering alcoholic, so I understand your example quite well. The "choice" that alcoholics have is _not_ in changing a behavior pattern, although it looks that way if you don't dig deep enough. Alcoholics, and any other person addicted to chemicals have two _separate_ issues going on at the same time. The first issue is the choice of taking the _first_ drink after a period of sobriety. The second issue is that once the chemical has entered the brain, they loose the ability to _think_, and therefore the ability to choose.

That _first_ drink in a series is really the only time an alkie has a choice. Once that drink is down, there's no choice at all. You have to wait until the "run" burns itself out before the brain is cleared of chemicals and thinking is possible again.

I agree completely. The challenge to those of us who are harmed by somebody else's addiction is to protect _us_ from the emotional damage caused by the addiction. It's really important for us to separate, in our understanding of this whole nightmare, that "underneath" the addiction there is an ordinary human being that we love and cherish. If I ever loose sight of the fact that I love my wife _without_ the addiction, then I loose the most important part of my soul; my ability to love. At the same time, I have to recognize that my wife _with_ the disease is not a rational person, and I need to take appropirate measures to protect myself from her.

What caused _me_ the most harm was not her addiction. As you pointed out, it was my own use of the "disease" as a cop out. _I_ failed to take responsible behavior to protect myself. What I am doing now, better than before but not yet completely, is dealing with my wife with sympathy for the _person_ without condoning the behavior. The point to all this is that if my wife is ever going to _choose_ to enter recovery she is going to need somebody in her life that she can see is treating her based on her behavior, like an adult. As long as I am treating her based on my _emotions_, based on my fears and resentments, then she will always blame our divorce on _my_ emotions instead of her behavior. My reacting to her in an emotional manner provides _her_ with a cop-out just as much as it does me.

You are _so_ right. I'm dealing with my heart condition right now, as well as problems with my lungs and pancreas. It would be _much_ easier to "chicken out" and just load up on pain pills and be done with it. But I know better. What I find invaluable in helping me deal with the challenges in my life today is when people like you call my attention to the fact that I need to "deal with it" in an adult manner while, at the same time giving me a little compassion (not sympathy).

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

elizabeth1979

Im not sure about my feelings on this yet. Still mulling it over. Usually I jump to position quickly, but, well, that was the old me.

I can say that now that I am working in my issues, solving my problems, and not being Miss Control Freak USA, I have alot more compassion and alot less anger than before.
Shannons comment below:
I think this is right on the mark.
That is part of my old thinking, although I didnt know it. This thinking in line with the pretense that I somehow had something to do with the drinking, was only allowing me to become angry, and more demanding , because I took it personally that he was drinking. An indication of my bad girlfriend/wife skills. I didnt want that as a reflection of me!

It has nothing to do with me, this comment really soaking into my head, has liberated my emotions in more ways than I can count.

I think WHY someone becomes so angry without compassion is an indicator of where they are in recovery, or not in recovery.

megamysterioso

This post will be long, so for anyone that can bear with it, I thank you in advance.

No kidding. Why do you think I'm here? My husband is an A, FIL too and one of the great loves of my life was an A/drug addict. I have plenty of familiarity with the subject.

Believe me when I say that I KNOW that I have a choice. I know that the "trapped feeling" that I get sometimes is from my own making. In fact, I'm sure that most folks on the outside probably think I am a moron for staying in my situation b/c you are right- I have a choice. That's why I came to find SR.

Well, if it were a thyroid issue, it would be a medical problem then wouldn't it? Therefore, yes, I would want a little compassion.

It was not intended to be an assumption about anyone, but rather an extreme case-scenario to exaggerate my point. About 15 years ago, I myself was sober and hit by a drunk driver from behind that was traveling about 90 miles an hour on a old highway. By the grace of God neither I nor my passenger was seriously injured. It was a hit and run- basically left us for dead. I got a description of the car and the license plate number and was told that I had no grounds for a civil or criminal case b/c I did not physically see the owner driving the car. I talked to many different lawyers and according to all of them, I did not have a case period. The owner of the car had no insurance and had 3 DUIs on his record. My uninsured motorist coverage kicked in so I paid the deductible and had the $4K+ worth of damages fixed myself. My insurance rates were then promptly jacked up.

Let me give you a little history of myself so that any misconceptions about me having a "God complex" can be laid to rest...

I'm no Pollyanna. At 14 years old where I grew up, the drinking age was 18. No one in my area cared about "carding" and therefore, I used to buy liquor at a liquor store all on my own at the age of 14! My parents are loving and they don't drink, smoke, do drugs, cuss--- nothing. They never have. I just had this natural rebellious personality that wanted to "go out and experience everything." All my friends were into drinking and drugs and so was I. We were buck wild! We would drive down the road passing a bottle back and forth and mixing cocktails. We're LUCKY we did not kill anyone. I'd go "clubbing" in a very metro-drug scene at the age of 16. I've done everything except for shoot a needle into my arm- ecstacy, coke, shrooms, acid, peyote, heroin (orally), crack, any pill you threw at me and of course beer and pot. My entire teenage existence and a very small portion of my twenties were spent totally faced. Throughout all of those years, I saw more young people die and go to jail or prison that I care to count. Every single one of these deaths/incarcerations was drug/alcohol related. Even BEFORE I started seeing this dark side, I always had something within myself that KNEW that this was only a temporary state in my life and I did not want to continue it forever. For me, it was no way to live permanently. My best friend and I used to joke, "don't become a statistic."

OK- by the time I was 22 years old, I was done with it. I found myself going out and doing these same things and was frankly BORED and UNHAPPY. I got no enjoyment out of it and just thought that I was wasting myself. "This can't be ALL there is out of life, right??" I knew that I had to make a drastic change in my life. I could have stayed in my environment with all my friends (who I loved and still do by the way) and repeat the cycle or I could just take off and start anew. Had I stayed, my parents were willing to pay for college. I instead applied to a school almost 1000 miles away where I knew absolutely no one and received a scholarship. I supplemented the rest of my college expenses with grants and student loans. I left and got a BA and I drink socially maybe once a month now. That's it. Did I ever hold my parents responsible for not helping me pay for school??? NO. Do I think they "owed" that to me? NO. I had a choice, I made it and it was what was best for me.

My point is a simple adult rationale- EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER OWN ACTIONS. Plain and simple. DesertEyes, thank you so much for your post. I am sorry to hear of your medical problems and really commend you on your strength and courage during your illness. You are right when you say that you could just pain pill out if you wanted. You've chosen to fight the good war. If taking your medication prevents you from being in physcial agony though, I hope you would take it.

I subscribe to the belief that inner strength can prevail. I believe that people need to have the ability to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and do whatever is necessary to become that "better" human being!!!! I don't like cop-outs and whining (although you wouldn't know it from some of my posts regarding my AH ). If you don't have this core ability- this instestinal fortitude, then YES you will be weeded out- natural selection. Natural selection only implies that it is those who are suited best to the environment and can adapt to it that survive the long haul. What is so wrong about that?

In the grand scheme of things, lets look at all forms of human tragedy...

children born with deformities or terminal illnesses/sickness, people in accidents that are paralyzed for life, war, people in this country and abroad that are starving...

My heart does bleed more for those things listed above than for the alcoholic and the codie (me) that have choices in our lives. Our problems are not very "real" when you think of it. Sorry--- but my problems and my AHs are VERY SMALL in the grand scheme of things. Our "disease" is laughable compared to the human suffering endured on other levels.

Jazzman

Mega, sounds as though you and I had lead parallel lives in our late teens early twenties. With the exception of experimenting with heroin and extacy, sounds very familiar. I was a heavy cocaine user and ultimately became addicted to it. First snorting then smoking then eventually needles. At 23, with the bottom rising up at me quickly, I quit cold turkey, no rehab, no support. I wasted many years in my youth until I had enough and turned my life around. I picked myself up by my bootstraps and made a change for the better, put myself through school, etc.
I also struggle w/ the disease classification of addiction and that debate has been going on here way before you and I joined SR. Some opinions step on the toes of others here and that simply reflects the reality of what this place is, a group of diverse people.

So... with all that said, (your previous post) I'm curious. With your demonstrated personal fortitude and history of picking yourself up by your bootstraps, what's the deal? Why have you stayed in this unhealthy relationship? What makes this challenge more difficult that others you have overcome?

megamysterioso

Thanks Jazz. Yes, I realize that this a group of diverse people that have found themselves in similar situations. I really do respect the diversity and am not "morally offended" at any comments made my way. To each their own. I just really wanted everyone to understand where I was coming from and not think that I'm some heartless, dictator type. LOL I guess I maybe an "occasional poor taste poster" as well!!! That's great by the way. Another great quote is Texasgirl's tagline- a quote from Dr. Laura (Mrs. Morality herself)- "hope is oftentimes prolonged disappointment." That really cracks me up .

Ok- you pose a VERY good question. Before finding SR, I found this "considering divorce" type forum. I explained my hesitation to leave there as a "perverse commitment to my wedding vows." I think I also mentioned that in one of my earlier posts on this board. In all honesty Jazz, I think that this has a lot to do with it. I don't think "divorce" is bad and have been divorced once already (ex wouldn't hold a job). I know that there is life after divorce-- not a big deal and I quite enjoy being single.

I think that I have high expectations of MYSELF and that maybe striving to be the "better" person means doing so at my own expense in this case. If that makes any sense??! I have been through very rough times with AH, but surely I haven't tried EVERY attempt in the book myself to make things better for us, right? If we did not make the "for better or worse" commitment though, I really don't think I would be here. I wish I could see daylight and hope in my relationship again. The really sad part of my situation right now from my point of view is that I don't feel in love with AH anymore. Any effort he's making is in vain.

I wish I could be receptive to the changes for the better that he's making. I feel sad that my own feelings have sunk to such a level of uncompromising proportions. I feel that time is the only way to tell if these feelings within myself can be "mended." If inevitably they can't, I WILL move on. I'm just trying to sort a lot out in my mind. I hope that explains a little.

equus

If you recognise this - why hold so hard to feelings that lead you where you don't want to go? I know my feelings are connected to my beliefs so if one is out of whack with me being happy I check out the other.

megamysterioso

I'm trying to let them go. I am not a demon to live with when my AH is running around here being "nice." I consciously make an effort to recognize his "progress" no matter how insignificant it may be. BTW- he just brought home a 12 pack today. So much for his 6 a night hey? I am trying to understand his behavior, his motives, attitudes, everything and my reactions to it.

My belief system is as described above in my own story. I can never and will never downplay the importance of inner strength in overcoming life's difficulties. Aside from the alcohol in our lives, I have come to realize that my AH and I are extremely different on a core level (personal character wise). He either: 1. crumbles like a house of cards with the slightest bit of pressure on him (not just by turning to alcohol either) or 2. he turns into a rage machine that seeks to destroy everything around him (with deception, physical violence or slander) causing the turmoil! Unfortunately, alcohol only exaggerates these qualities that my belief system finds intolerable. I don't have that type of mentality in me and it is hard for me to fathom this type of thinking. These core differences will more than likely never be overcome.

Aquiana

To the original question, I think it's a good idea. If it works the way the statistics show anyway. It probably doesn't help them all quit, but like they kind of mentioned in the article, many probably wouldn't quit anyway so why not do something. I used to work in a rougher area, and many times I'd see people hiding behind buildings drinking aftershave, cleaners ect. I would say, that if you've gone that far, there probably isn't the option to quit. I can't say I believe they are doing it for any sort of enjoyment.

Also, if it helps keep people off the street, reduces crime and helps with the strain on the emergency system than it's a benefit to all of us.

It would be interesting to know what kind of councelling they are getting while they are there.

reader

When I was a teen I say a homeless man dead on the street. I assume he may have froze to death since it was a cold winters night. It really stuck with me. If nothing else these folks aren't living on the streets or behind the wheel.

2dayzmuse

Personal opinions aside, alcohol withdrawal is a medical problem. Yes, alcoholics choose to drink. They pick up willingly, but what do you do when it no longer becomes a choice, but a necessity to keep from going into seizure? This is a very serious issue. Monitoring the intake helps to keep some off of the streets and out of an agitated state and helps with weaning off of alcohol. Alcohol withdrawals can kill you and monitoring the intake seems to be a compassionate effort backed with some medical understanding of tapering.