I'm nervous to write this.

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Old 12-12-2005, 11:42 AM
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I'm nervous to write this.

Not about guilt, regret or blame. I've deliberated whether to put this here for days but if I don't then I'm continuing the process I believe in all my heart is wrong. NO-ONE could use this information before they had it, we can only use what we have. We are NOT told how to help someone addicted but there's study after study showing how much that help and support matters.

It's wrong to with hold information and often with it choice, unless that information can do harm. This information I know has potential to hurt but also to heal. I can put it here and leave the good senses of each individual to treat it in a way that doesn't increase pain - or I can make that decision for others but I THINK that would be wrong.

I got told I couldn't help but I could, I asked first how to help but was told just to look after me (wise advice - but I wanted WITH information on how to help).

This is a long article - it's about findings from studies on how support from family and friends can INCREASE the rates of recovery. I feel so let down that nobody was there to tell me how, it seems a crime. I don't want to take part in that - I think it's better to let people decide for themselves.

THIS IS NOT A GUILT TRIP - I still have boundaries, I don't think we should destroy ourselves trying, that would be harmful BUT we have the right to know.


From - Module 10J Alcohol and the Family - NIAAA: Social Work Education for the Prevention and Treatment of alcohol use disorders.

Empirical Findings
There exists a convincing body of literature indicating that marital and family intervention approaches are more successful in substance abuse treatment than individual intervention alone (O'Farrell, 1992; O'Farrell & Fals-Stewart, 1999; Stanton & Shadish, 1997; Waldron & Slesnick, 1998). More specifically, evidence indicates that there is benefit associated with including focus on an individual's "real world" interpersonal relationships as a fundamental component of intervention efforts (Borovec & Whisman, 1996). Family intervention is associated with better compliance and better treatment outcomes for individuals with alcohol use disorders (McCrady & Epstein, 1996; O'Farrell & Fals-Stewart, 1999). Most recent studies of family intervention approaches involve out-patient treatment (Allen & Litten, 1999).
Family members, as significant others (SOs), play an important role in treatment outcomes. Alcohol treatment outcomes are more significant in situations of positive marital adjustment (Moos, Finney, & Cronkite, 1990). There is little doubt that the significant others in a person's life can actively encourage the individual to maintain problematic behaviors like excessive drinking. However, it is also important to note that involving a "supportive significant other" (SSO) in the process of therapy concerning substance problems is associated with improved retention and more favorable intervention outcomes (Miller & Heather, 1998; Zweben & Pearlman, 1983). O'Farrell (1995) reports that the involvement of spouses or significant others in behavioral couples therapy is associated with improved treatment engagement and reduced drinking behavior compared to individual therapy.

The "significant others" in a person's life can have a great influence on the individual's motivation for change-including a spouse, intimate partner, other family member, or friend (Burke, Vassilev, Kantchelov, & Zweben, 2002; Hasin, 1994). Motivation to change is positively affected by individuals in a person's environment who express concern, offer help, and reinforce the negative consequences of the problem-in a non-demanding way (Miller & Rollnick, 1991). In addition to legal consequences, pressure from family members and significant others is a powerful route to treatment and engagement (Stanton, 1997). Proper involvement of a significant other in the intervention process can help in identifying barriers and solutions, as well as providing corroborating or contrary information about what happens outside of the treatment setting (Burke, Vassilev, Kantchelov, & Zweben, 2002). These individuals can facilitate implementation of change strategies, promote self-efficacy, motivate, help recognize triggers, and act as an "early warning system" for relapse. There is some evidence that these individuals can help improve treatment compliance for alcohol medication regimes, as well, although this evidence is somewhat conflicted when different studies are compared to one another (O'Farrell, 1995).

Project MATCH results (a multi-year, multi-site controlled comparison study of different treatment approaches) indicate an interactive effect on treatment outcomes between the type of intervention modality and social support networks. Twelve-step facilitation (TSP) was found to be more efficacious than Motivational Enhancement Therapy (MET) among clients whose natural social networks supported and reinforced drinking behavior. MET was better than TSP, however, among clients whose social networks were determined to be low support for drinking (Project MATCH, 1997a, 1997b, 1998a). This project also found that individuals, in describing the factor most helpful in maintaining their motivation to change, most often identified spousal support as helping them transition from the action to maintenance stage of recovery (Project Match, 1997a). As noted by Burke, Vassileve, Kantchelov, & Zweben (2002), these findings are consistent with the results of other treatment outcome and natural recovery studies. For example, a relatively short, structured series of family therapy and "significant others" intervention sessions was associated with no difference in drinking outcomes among individuals who have high levels of social support for abstinence, but with distinctly improved outcomes for individuals with low levels of support for abstinence (Longabaugh, Beattie, Noel, Stout, & Malloy, 1993). The addition of a specific couples based Relapse Prevention (RP) training program (CALM-2) at the conclusion of a behavioral marital therapy program is associated with better long-term outcomes than behavioral marital therapy alone (O'Farrell, Choquette, Cutter, Brown, & McCourt, 1993; O'Farrell, 1995)-this is especially true for couples experiencing severe relationship problems.

O'Farrell (1995) summarizes a set of factors that predict acceptance and completion of marital and family therapy by alcoholics. Among the factors are: couple living together, or if separated, are willing to reconcile for the duration of treatment; couple enters treatment following a relationship-threatening crisis; other family members (including the partner) do not have alcoholism; the alcoholic and other family members are without serious psychopathology or other drug abuse; and an absence of family violence that has produced serious injury or is potentially life threatening. These factors are important because in order for treatment to be effective, the alcoholic must be retained in treatment and must participate in the process. McCrady, Epstein, and Hirsch (1999) have demonstrated that alcohol-focused behavioral couples therapy (ABCT) results in greater post-treatment marital happiness, fewer incidents of marital separation, and fewer incidents of domestic violence than general family systems approaches (also see NIAAA's "Alcohol Problems in Intimate Relationships: Identification and Intervention-A Guide for Marriage and Family Therapists," February, 2003).

In situations where both partners in a couple have a similar problem (e.g., both have problems with alcohol), there exists a clear advantage to working with them simultaneously (Allsop & Saunders, 1991). Furthermore, it is important to make control of the alcohol abuse the first priority in working with couples, rather than beginning with the marital relationship, because recurrent alcohol-related incidents and interactions undermine therapeutic relationship gains.

Many of our clients have had previous unsuccessful experiences with therapists who saw the couple in MFT without dealing with the alcohol abuse. The hope that reduction in marital or family distress will lead to improvement in the drinking problem rarely is fulfilled. (O'Farrell, 1995, p. 196).

Once the alcohol issues have come under some degree of control, it is important to begin addressing the family problems caused by drinking (e.g., legal problems, income and financial security issues, housing problems, and issues affecting the family's interactions with the social world), as well as other family issues that may have been overshadowed or obscured by the alcohol problems (O'Farrell, 1995).

In order for a significant other to be supportive of the change process, it may be necessary to address (1) his or her difficulties arising from attempting to cope with the partner's alcohol problems and (2) his or her ambivalence about changing behaviors that contribute to the target individual maintaining the drinking behavior, and (3) means of developing a consensus between the partners about the goals of treatment (Burke et al., 2002). Involvement of the significant other may be counterproductive if this individual is overwhelmed, overly angry and resentful, and/or uncommitted to change (Longabaugh, et al., 1993). Training the significant other may be especially important in situations where the alcoholic is not yet contemplating change and this individual can help move the person into treatment.

The Community Reinforcement Training (CRT) approach is based on an assumption that shifts in the patterns of reinforcement and contingencies can be used to change an alcohol abuser's behavior. The Community Reinforcement and Family Training program (CRAFT) engages family in the process, as well as providing family and supportive significant others with skills for self-protection from intimate partner violence, means of encouraging sobriety, abilities to encourage professional help-seeking, and knowledge of how to support the therapeutic process (Sisson & Azrin, 1986, 1993). In a small sample study, CRT (compared to standard treatment controls) was associated with an average 50% reduction in drinking prior to entering treatment and almost total abstinence during the three months after entering treatment; 6 of 7 alcoholic partners entered treatment compared to none of the 5 control group individuals (whose alcohol consumption did not change during the 3 months period).

In a similar vein, the Unilateral Family Therapy approach (Thomas & Ager, 1993) provides support and attempts to increase the well-being and functioning of individuals engaged in relationships with substance abusers. This approach prepares nonalcoholic partners with their own coping mechanisms, skills to enhance family functioning (e.g., reducing nagging and other forms of negative communication), and ways to facilitate sobriety (including treatment entry) on the part of the alcohol abusing partner. Unilateral Family Therapy (UFT) was associated with significantly greater chances that alcoholics will enter into treatment and/or reduce their drinking in small sample study (Thomas et al., 1987).

A more coercive approach, termed The Johnson Institute Intervention, involves training family and significant others to confront an alcohol abuser, request that he or she seek treatment, and impose consequences for not seeking help. The goal of this program is treatment engagement by the alcohol abuser. The approach is controversial (on practical and ethical bases), and there is limited evidence of effectiveness with the widely diverse population of individuals with alcohol use disorders (Connors, Donovan, & DiClemente, 2001).

Another approach which relies on Al-Anon concepts (i.e., detaching oneself from the other's drinking, accepting that they are powerless to control the alcoholic partner) prepares partners to cope with their own emotional distress and motivations for change, rather than attempting to motivate the alcoholic partner to change (Dittrich, 1993; Dittrich & Traphold, 1984). While it is not clear that the intervention is associated with changes in the drinking individual, there have been persistent improvements in some qualities among the supported partners. And, while there is not a base of controlled research concerning Al-Anon outcomes, there have been studies suggesting that Al-Anon members use fewer ineffective means of coping with the drinking (O'Farrell, 1995).

Controlled, randomized clinical trials are beginning to shape a picture of what is effective in family intervention. One such study compared the CRAFT, Al-Anon, and Johnson Institute Intervention approaches for effectiveness in getting an alcohol abuser into treatment. The highest overall treatment rate for the alcoholic family members was associated with the CRAFT therapy (64%). The vast majority of families in the Johnson Institute condition chose not to complete the intervention; 70% failed to follow-up with the critical confrontation session. Since the Al-Anon facilitation is not designed for engaging the alcoholic in treatment, it is not surprising that this was not a common outcome (Miller, Meyers, & Tonigan, 1999).

The bulk of the controlled clinical research trials that include a family component in alcohol treatment examine adults with partners, and possibly the children of adult alcohol abusers. However, it is also important to consider the role of family and significant others in the treatment of adolescents who struggle with alcohol problems (Brown, Myers, Mott, & Vik, 1994). For example, Integrated Family and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy demonstrated effectiveness on several outcome variables when used with adolescents meeting criteria for alcohol and marijuana use disorders (Latimer, Winters, D'Zurilla & Nichols, 2003). Similarly, Multidimensional Family Therapy resulted in better risk reduction and protection promoting processes than peer group therapy with adolescents referred to treatment for substance abuse and behavioral problems (Liddle, et al., 2004). This type of family based, multi-system, and developmentally oriented intervention targets the functioning of adolescents and their parents across multiple systems and a variety of known risk/protective factors.

It is also important to consider that the most important significant others in an individual's life may not be the most obvious ones-it may not be the spouse, it may be an adult's parent or grandparent, child, or best friend. Not only do these individuals have important contributions to offer in the assessment process, creating an accurate picture of the individual's "relational functions" involving them is often an important aspect of the overall assessment process, as well (Waldron & Slesnick, 1998).

There is evidence that identifies several potential barriers to effective family intervention with substance abuse. The first of these is a potential for violence occurring in the family. Where an acute risk of severe violence exists (violence that may result in serious injury or is life-threatening), the immediate intervention goals must be altered to prioritize safety, safety planning, and conflict containment (O'Farrell & Fals-Stewart, 1999). In these situations, it is recommended to treat the individuals separately (Murphy & O'Farrell, 1996). In some cases there may be legal restrictions in place (i.e., court orders, restraining orders, no contact orders) that preclude conjoint family sessions. A second major barrier is the presence of more than one actively substance abusing family member in the family-particularly if these individuals are partners in consumption. Another demonstrated barrier is the existence of high levels of blame and rumination from family members (usually the partner) toward the substance abusing individual. There may also exist practical barriers to social work intervention from a family perspective-for example, geographical distances; family members who are deceased, divorced, mission, incarcerated or otherwise separated; coordination of family members' schedules and child care responsibilities; securing reimbursement for services delivered to multiple individuals. Finally, social workers should attend to the outcomes emerging from recent large-scale, multi-service, service integration and coordination studies with women on welfare who experience problems with alcohol or other substances, compounded by risks for child protective services involvement and domestic violence (e.g., CASA WORKS for families, or TANF-MATE in Milwaukee, Wisconsin).

Reference - references in article are at the bottom of the page.
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:28 PM
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Thank you, Equus;
I think you've done a powerful service printing this. Each one of us must put in place our own boundaries. I've struggled with the same ideas about help and detachment for quite some time. I *think* I've found *my* comfort zone between the two. And I think each one of us must do the same.
Again, thank you for providing this information. You are right; each person must make decisions based upon their own individual circumstances. But, to make the best decision, information is necessary. Because of your efforts, we now have more upon which to base our judgements.
I am grateful!

Shalom!
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:34 PM
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Interesting information.
I know that when I entered recovery my spouse (now my exah) wasn't ready to "give it up". He did do a few out pt treatment meetings but he minimized his use and never was drug tested and then just stopped going. He went to 3 or 4 NA & AA meetings with me and then decided that he "didn't need to do that crap".
We grew farther and farther apart and divorced. He's still living the life.
Our divorce was final 13 days after our 25th wedding anniversary...
He remarried 3 months later.
Our DOC was meth...now according to the kids he's drinking every night.
I wonder if he's happy?
Personally, I know that I am...
I have peace & serenity in my life today that I've never had before.
I'm alone, but I'm not lonely...
I have a great relationship with my kids today and my God.
However, it's the holidays...and the ghosts from Christmas pasts come to visit and sometimes I can't help but wonder "what if he'd chosen recovery"...
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:40 PM
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When I found this 5 days ago I was so angry that only a huge stroke of luck gave us an all to brief encounter with it (family centred approaches) it worked for us, then was gone, along with the counsellor who had read the research.

Afterwards the world returned to the status quo, it was as if this was never real - until hunting for references to pass on to another treatment approach and encourage alternative help for families, I found this. My heart sinks that this isn't accessible and instead our instincts to offer GOOD, FUNCTIONAL support, our desire to know what that is and how to do it are viewed as obsession, controlling or sick.

None of the above says it works every time, or says F&F can control outcomes - just influence, just not powerless, and only then with some. But don't we have the right to choose?
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:56 PM
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I have been a member of Al Anon and Co Anon (for family and friends of cocaine addicts) for a little over 3 yrs now. I am also an addict myself. Therefore I know both sides of the coin from first hand experience.

There is NOTHING anyone can do to make an addict stop using. The only thing you can do is work on yourself through the 12 steps (or other mean you may have found useful) and change the things about yourself that you are able to.

Now.......does working on our own recovery program enhance the conditions under which the addicts in our life might desire their own recovery? I believe it does. How? Well, in the program we learn what enabling is and how not to enable (more anons inadvertently kill addicts than drugs kill addicts by enabling them), we learn how to let go of resentments and anger toward the addict who is suffering from a disease, we learn how to detach with love, we learn how to allow the addict the dignity to make his own choices and learn from his own mistakes, etc.

If you'd like more insight on how addiction affects the addict personally, feel free to email me at kathysctc******.com
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:21 PM
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Kathy,
With due respect, I think you *may* be exaggerating with this statement?
...more anons inadvertently kill addicts than drugs kill addicts by enabling them
If not, please give me your source...

Shalom!
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:37 PM
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When someone does not recognize what enabling is, and continues to bail the addict out of trouble, loan them money, pay their debts, make excuses for them, relieve them of their responsibilities, make ammends for them, buy their needs.......do anything for them that they should be able to do for themselves........all we're really doing is prolonging their suffering. The longer they are active in their addiction the higher their risk of dying from it. I've heard this numerous times in the rooms of NA. Many many addicts will tell you they owe their recovery to the loved one who stopped enabling them, who quit *being there* for them in the sense of loaning them money and any other form of enabling. To the ones who learned how to say no. To the ones who fine tuned their ******** filter and became able to recognize when the addict was BSing them. I didn't mean the statement literally, as in statistics. But you do bring up an interesting point.......I wonder if anywhere there are statistics on this type of thing? On how often an addict recovers once their loved ones work their own program of recovery versus loved ones who don't?
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:37 PM
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I don't see anything mentioned in this article about the substance abuser willingness for treatment which all the confronting and forced treatment in the world will not get someone clean if they do not whole heartedly agree that they need to or want to stop abusing substance.IMO

I can change my behaviors which does seem to change some of his behaviors but,
that still doesn't mean he will quit using....

Interesting article though...
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:51 PM
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Prolonging their suffering through enabling, yes, I totally agree with. It is possible to enable them right into the grave.
Offering *support* is not quite the same thing as enabling, though. At least not the way I understand Equus to be saying.
And I'm not trying to be a stickler. But, much information is being passed around as "truth," regardless of the facts of a situation. And if that faulty "truth" is said often enough, it gains the legitimacy of truth, dispite it's falsehood. Then, it becomes far more difficult to gleen facts from the bs. Indeed, the bs can hinder support that may or can be necessary, too.
Wishing you well...
Shalom!
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:15 PM
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Equus, I gave my right arm (and the rest) to help R when I though that he was serious about recovery. And I would do it again, although now I know how to recognise when someone is serious. Well, maybe not my right arm, but I hope you know what I mean. (Small caveat - I will never knowingly be romantically involved again with an addict, active or not.)

I've said it before, and I'll say it till I go to my grave - there is a world of difference between an active alcoholic/addict who is willing to get help and someone who isn't. As I learn more and more about relationships involving addiction, I see that there is a huge gulf in information and options for the spouse of a recovering alcoholic.

I have had my fingers burned already today, so I'll leave it there.

You are doing a great service here, hon.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:20 PM
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Equss I believe that in your situation, this approach has a lot of merit. You are very fortunate you and D have the relationship you guys have. You're also very fortunate that D has his own inspiration to work his recovery and improve his life. I hope this helps other people understand another workable perspective, depending on their situation. I know that if M had any self-respect for herself at all, my story could have had a different ending. I believe that not everyone out there that is fighting a loosing battle, (no matter what the tactic) this could be very helpful to them.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:42 PM
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I think it goes without saying that support from family members can result in SOME success. I didn't need to read an article to know that. 25 years my husband was my number one supporter, but no matter how hard he tried, the kids tried, no matter how much he loved me it was up to me to get where I had had enough. Now, sober going on a few 24 hours now, yeah, my success is a result of what I do. Those "I'm proud of you's" are fewer as time goes on, but I know they are and don't need to hear it all the time as as time has gone on I'm the one who has kept me sober I needed to be the one to stand on my own two feet at some point. Yes support is wonderful and great to have no doubt it results in some higher success rates but no way no how should anyone who can't endure it anymore, who wants freedom for themselves from their loved ones addiction ever, ever, ever, feel guilty when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired about throwing in the towel.. It's a fact some will die as a result of this disease.....and then what?
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:10 PM
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Yes support is wonderful and great to have no doubt it results in some higher success rates but no way no how should anyone who can't endure it anymore, who wants freedom for themselves from their loved ones addiction ever, ever, ever, feel guilty when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired about throwing in the towel.. It's a fact some will die as a result of this disease.....and then what?
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement - BUT I believe in our right to choose too, even if we make a mistake.

The point is that few of us have tried with good guidance, few of us have had that opportunity. I got a taste of it - possibily (probably) in the best of circumstance BUT only by luck and not ongoing.

We won't get unless we ask but we get told not to ask - that's wrong and to be told we have nothing that can influence - that's wrong. Influence doesn't mean I can stay sober for D, he has to do that himself.

and continues to bail the addict out of trouble, loan them money, pay their debts, make excuses for them, relieve them of their responsibilities, make ammends for them, buy their needs.......do anything for them that they should be able to do for themselves........all we're really doing is prolonging their suffering.
I think you can be sure the programmes for families aren't suggesting this, in fact the opposite. The point is we a re capable of influence NOT JUST HARMFUL INFLUENCE, but just as the enabler isn't guilty of killing the alcoholic, offering support does not mean taking credit for them staying sober.

We should be told - we should not have those choices made for us purely in order to adhere to rhetoric or protect our fragile minds. We should have it as a treatment option IF that is what we want as individuals.

I don't personally agree with forcing drinkers though, in fact I have stood up for my hubby's right to chose moderation first and strongly as I'm writing this now. I still defend his right to choose how he goes about being sober, I support him in being his own boss, but I will talk plainly as a friend also.
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Old 12-13-2005, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by splendra
I don't see anything mentioned in this article about the substance abuser willingness for treatment which all the confronting and forced treatment in the world will not get someone clean if they do not whole heartedly agree that they need to or want to stop abusing substance.IMO

I can change my behaviors which does seem to change some of his behaviors but,
that still doesn't mean he will quit using....

Interesting article though...
Sorry it was late at night when I replied and I realised I didn't respond to this. It is a good point.


Whe the article discusses MET (Motivation Enhancement Therapy) it's refering to things that influence a drinkers own personal decision to stop - preferabley increase that motivation. It shows as a fine example of us having influence rather than 'a cure' they found different approaches more or less effective depending on socila support for either drinking or quitting:
Twelve-step facilitation (TSP) was found to be more efficacious than Motivational Enhancement Therapy (MET) among clients whose natural social networks supported and reinforced drinking behavior. MET was better than TSP, however, among clients whose social networks were determined to be low support for drinking (Project MATCH, 1997a, 1997b, 1998a). This project also found that individuals, in describing the factor most helpful in maintaining their motivation to change, most often identified spousal support as helping them transition from the action to maintenance stage of recovery (Project Match, 1997a).
The other reason I wanted to come back to this is to say that (quite rightly) NOWHERE in that article does it say F&F can 'stop' a persons drinking. If someone is unwilling to stop and has means to carry on - certainly we are powerless. But that leaves a whole grey area, attempts to stop, willingness but no confidence, attempts at moderation, etc etc. Even then if we have no guidance in how to give 'good' support, there's no way on earth we can claim to have positive influence. The best in that situation is to simply reduce negative influence. The point is IF this support was provided the evidence above shows more people would leave those grey areas not drinking than simply returning to the booze - not all, just more, but each life is priceless.

For me it isn't about telling someone they should - heaven help me, how on earth would I know? Or telling them that they could - we don't have much of the support outlined above, we don't get it and those increases in positive outcomes are based on it - if knowledge is power, denying knowledge creates genuine powerlessness. I wouldn't dream of telling someone that they could go it alone if only they wanted to - mostly if I did I would be wrong, VERY wrong!

My point is that this is known, it isn't wrong or sick to ask how can I help, what's wrong is that it isn't available with support and people aren't empowered with information on how they can help effectively.

No guilt trips - just information for informed choices.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:21 AM
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To each their own of course.Many the non-alcoholic,has given positive support,throught-out the years.Wore themselves out,,thinking that they will make a difference in anothers life.The thing is that no one,can influnce another,,,unless they want to be influnced.What they gave was it the right/wrong support?Personally i dont feel that there is such a thing.Because again no one can influnce another unless they are wanting to be influnced.lets go back a bit.You can take a baby to the,bath-room,with praises aglore.Supporting baby,encouraging baby to go poty.But they will go,... when they want to,.How many parents have such problems toliet trainning their kids.Saying,that their baby just sat there on the poty,and did nothing.But as soon as baby was, lifted of the poty,and their pants were put back on,then the baby did the deed,,in their pants,and made a mess.And this is about a small baby,sober too i might add,,,lol....What is the baby saying?That yes you can take me to the bath-room,put me on the poty,,but its up to...me....whether i will go,or not.Adults will do the same thing.using their own will to make decisions,for themselves,if and when they want to,just like the baby.
I felt total relief when i finally got it through my skull,that i cannot control another human,again unless they are willing.to never give out advice unless asked,and to allow others to be who they wanting to be.The guilt i had,and worked through was trying to tell others how to live.Giving them positive feedback,with my own intentin,hidden motives of trying to change them.The alcoholic,is self-centered,selfish,self will gone berserk.Tempory insane until they go for help,and make this decisions within ourselves to do this.Just like the baby.Find the good in everyone no matter what.To "give" without wanting to recieve.This is the teachings that i follow today,and helped to change my life,Again,only because i was wanting this to.Hub changed when he wanted to,and was willing to go to any and all lenghts,for soberiety...If folks are encouraging me,supporting me,with the intentions that i will change,then they have earned their guilt,and their dissapointment,when it didnt work,out for them.Just like myself when i tried this with all the alcoholics in my life.Looking back at all the things that i have done trying to change another....hmmmm..I was the one who paid the dear price of doing this to others.And i hurt them too,all in the name of changing another.
Thanks for letting me share,
to each their own of course,
God Bless,and take care!!!!
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:35 AM
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You can take a baby to the,bath-room,with praises aglore.Supporting baby,encouraging baby to go poty.But they will go,... when they want to,.How many parents have such problems toliet trainning their kids.Saying,that their baby just sat there on the poty,and did nothing.But as soon as baby was, lifted of the poty,and their pants were put back on,then the baby did the deed,,in their pants,and made a mess.
As apparently my training influenced me enough to no longer need rubber pants I would say it was effective - despite quite possibly not wanting the influence at the time.

I'm a behaviourist, I know we influence each other. I work with kids that have been abused - I see the unwanted influences on them and again see the more positive influences from carers that care.

Influence does NOT equal control, I think perhaps here the two are getting confused.
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:05 AM
  # 17 (permalink)  
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Hey again,if your not wanting something from another why are you trying to influnce another?
Ive experience children from all kinds of homes also.Some from the good homes,turned out wild,and some from the other homes,learned from what they went through and are totally different,than what they grew up in.So it depends on the person themselves,.I think that you have forgot about the "spirit" in each person.its that spirit inside that the kids who came from abusive homes,decided to change,themselves.Had nothing to do with others,any outside influnce.Because the outside influnce did not change,but they have...They made the decision what a good and better life was,and went for it.
By all means go with what you know.If you believe that you have da power,the influnce,,,i just know that i dont.Unless the person wants to be influnced,of course.the baby decided when,what day,time,it was that they too didnt want to wear rubber pants.Baby could have decided to wear rubber pants for the rest of their lives,,,lol.....Baby let another put panies on them,said to themsleves hey this feels great,think i will keep wearing these.Babies decision...
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:26 AM
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Hey again,if your not wanting something from another why are you trying to influnce another?
Influence doesn't always require intent or effort, I accept that people influence people, in accepting that I will acknowledge and want to know how to make it a positive process. In short I don't chose to influence but I can chose to be aware of it. I would like to be able to chose to seek help in doing it even more postively.

Cap,

If you truly believe you are without influence - would you simply not potty train a child? Wait until they did it alone? Would you not influence how they learn to cross a road? Would you simply tell them you can't because you have no influence over their behaviour?

Enough kiddy examples - The law does not CONTROL me when I stop at a red light, I could (and people do) shoot straight through it, I would if I had reason enough BUT the law/culture/society has enough influence in that setting for me to stop and wait for the lights to go green.

I chose to speak and speak English - an influence from those who brought me up, yet it's not control, should I choose to only speak mongolian in a French accent I would be capable to learn (hopefully enough!) never to speak english again.

At an archery lesson I chose to hand over some control to the teacher - he says stay behingd this line and I do, but bet your life it isn't REAL control. If I had to run from fire I would cross the line!

I influence another by wearing a smile - I see that influence they smile back, but I don't confuse it with control or I would expect everyone to smile back and would be frustrated if they didn't.

I have been influenced by my western culture but large parts of that I'm now chosing to let go, none the less it has been influential.

I am influenced by tiredness, being well, being loved, being respected but those things don't control me. I am influenced by those around me but those around me aren't all trying to control me.

Because I'm aware of it's presence I would like the support for it to be positive. THAT is not control, after all another person can simply chose to part company and remove any influence!
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:11 AM
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Lol,,,,You say,would you simply not potty train a child?...Equues,i have 4 lads,and no i never potty trained them.This is true,i never put myself through that.And yet all decided to wear the panties,when they wanted to.You say that you would like for it to be positive...Here are your wants,your desires.Is this not in itself,trying,to be controling?
If another allows me to influnce them,yes then i can.If they dont,then,im powerless...
So i will agree here to disagree,and now let go,and listen,or is that i will read...
Thank you for sharring your insights.
As always different strokes for the many different folks...
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:20 AM
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You say that you would like for it to be positive...Here are your wants,your desires.Is this not in itself,trying,to be controling?
Of my own behaviour - yes, part of my motivation for that is I know we effect each other and therefore I believe in a certain degree of responsibility for how I act.

To me control and influence can not be made one word - they don't share a meaning, they are not the same. I sure as hell wouldn't like to exchange control for influence when I'm driving my car!!
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