minnie

As you might have been able to tell, I am having a bit of a personal (internal) crisis at the moment. There is a lot of stuff that I am having to deal with at the moment which I am sure is having an impact, however a lot of it has to do with processing all that has happened to me in the past 4 years and all that I have learnt since that first fateful date with R. I am not certain why I need to get this out there, but please bear with me. I could write for hours about what is going on in my mind, but I'll try and keep it short. This may be to the detriment of some of my points, but it is midnight, so it will have to suffice until tomorrow. And needless to say, please take what you like and leave the rest.

There is no denying that R has a drink problem. He can't live without it. There was (is) always a bottle hidden somewhere and he was what I would call a maintenance drinker - very rarely obviously drunk, but in all honesty I am not sure I have ever seen him totally sober.

However, all the emotionally abusive behaviour was and is still there at one time or another and this is where I have the difficulty. I see the alcoholism as a symptom, not a cause. The physical addiction created by years of drinking I can understand. But I just can't buy into putting every abusive and manipulative behaviour under the one label. It's too easy. Too simple to say "bless, they are fighting this terrible disease". I can't just say to myself "oh, well what do you expect, he's an alcoholic." And I hear other people on here going through the same thing and I can't say the same thing to them. And I hear Equus and Susane speaking about their partners and their descriptions just don't fit with those that we on SR commonly understand to be alcoholic behaviours, nor do they fit in with many (?any) passages in the BB. And that puzzles me.

I have been doing a lot of reading about personality disorders etc (as in DSM-IV diagnosed) and the more I read them, the more I see similarities between behaviours described and R's behaviour. And believe me, I see the same behaviours in many descriptions in posts on here. I am not qualified to diagnose and I wouldn't dream of doing so specifically to R or anyone else. There is website similar to SR for friends and families of Borderline Personality Disordered people. (It's called The Nook, but seems to be broken at the mo). 2 things amaze me - 1. that the behaviours described on here and on there are so similar. 2. that most (if not all) BPD sufferers are also drug or alcohol abusers. Yet we don't see Personality Disorder diagnoses on here. Seems like alcoholism is sufficient. I am not saying for a minute that each and every alcoholic has a personality disorder, but isn't it strange? What if alcoholism IS simply self-medication of a disordered personality and the exposure to alcohol then creates the physical addiction which we call alcoholism? This would explain the so-called "dry drunk" syndrome. And also would explain, in part, the success of AA. Personality Disordered people tend to crave acceptance and approval in the extreme. Well, what better place to get those than a meeting room full of people like them?

And the genetic argument which some alcoholics claim is the reason they are alcoholic? Well, I think that claim is yet to be proven conclusively. Many people say "well it must be, my father, grandfather, cousin, uncle were all alcoholics". But that doesn't prove that it is genetic - if it were solely due to unempathetic caregiving, then the results would be the same. Those kinds of parenting patterns are passed on through the generations, just in the same way as many abused people become abusers themselves.

I am learning in my recovery to see the bigger picture. Very soon I shall be moving into another phase of my life and will no longer have any contact with R. I have learnt many valuable tools from my time with him and they will stand me in good stead for the rest of my life. But never again will I put myself in that position again. And I will work hard to make information available to others in similar abusive situations. It is not for me to judge others, but I think it is vital that each and every person has a choice. And limited information leads to limited choices.

Love

Minnie
xxx

Minx1969

Minnie -

I agree with you 100%..As I've heard in Alanon and AA meetings - that drinking is only the symptom not the cause..

I think abuse and alcoholism are separate issues..

The hardest thing for me was that fact that I was attracted to abusive men (whether or not they were alcoholic. I've dated abusive non alcoholics too..)..For me - it is getting over that abuse which mirrored my childhood - that has been a struggle for me..

My exABF (the most recent one) was actually very loving and sweet when drunk..Rarely was he abusive when he drank..he was so affectionate..The abuse came when he couldn't control or manipulate me..so he would fight with me (sober) and play games and disappear..then get drunk and call me and tell me how much he loved me...kept me hooked in for quite a while..Took me a while to identify it as abuse too..There is that book "Why does he do that" about abusive men..My exabf was the so called "sensative man" type abuser..

I don't blame the alcohol - to me it is very apparent that the men I have dated before my new boyfriend all had some sort of mental disorder - anxiety, depression, BPD..you name it..And they weren't willing to be treated..a few went to a therapist with me, and were not willing to look at their issues..I think the alcoholics I dated drank to self-medicate..they could certainly be really mean (and often were) sober..

Thank you for calling this out!! This month in the US is Domestic Violence Awareness Month..

Gabe

I think in some cases, this is the truth.
I don't think all people with personality disorders are alcoholics.
I don't think all alcoholics have personality disorders.
I think having to deal with the ramifications of both must be terribly, terribly hard.

susane1408

Very interesting thread Minnie, too tired now to digest it fully

I have thought about this subject many times since I joined SR.
See you in the morning when I've had my shot of coffee

Girlfriend

Hi Minnie..... my heart goes out to you cuz it's obvious that you're hurting and are angry and want answers.

All I can say is from what I personally know. I am a RA. I drank for 10 years. I also have depression in my family. My grandmother was diagnosed in the 1950's with being Bipolar.

Alot of A's have depression BEFORE they start drinking and of course, after they start drinking. The alcohol increases it. Alcohol it's self, is a depressant. It messes with the neurotransmitters in our brains. Which can cause many different diseases neurologically.

If a person becomes an A, there is a reason for it. They either are self-medicating or they learn by role models that that's how you deal with problems in life. My reason for drinking was both.

Alcohol also intensifies emotions while drinking. If I was mad before I had that first drink, I'd be 10 times more angry after a half a gallon of wine. The abusive words came outta my mouth a whole lot easier while "twisted". It gave me false courage to tell people off that pissed me off my whole life. And, OH YEAH.....I did. I was angry at my Dad for years about how he was so mean verbally to us kids. So, I'd get tanked and call him up and let him have it.

The anger is there inside, though, before the alcohol. The drink just makes it easier and an excuse to go ahead and let it out on those closest to us. That's the part that sucks the worst. We hurt alot of people with our words and actions while running with alcohol.

So, no.......alcohol isn't ALL to blame for abusive behavior. My 1st ex H was abusive and he didn't drink at all. His Dad was an alcoholic and he saw him come home drunk and start beating on his Mom and trying to kill her. Therefore, that's where he learned that it must be okay to do that to your wife cuz that's what his Dad did. I got beat up 24/7/365 from age 16 to 24, even when I was pregnant.

There are alot of factors that go into abusive behavior. Alcohol is one of them. But, not the reason for the abuse.

Savana 54

I have often thought this too. I really appreciate you bringing this up minnie. My exabf, carries many triats of a person diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder, as well as Borderline personality disorder.

Maybe someday studies with conclude this is true...you never know.

Cazza

I think it is different with every alcoholic. Some may very well have other disorders causing the alcoholism. But I don't think it applies in every case.

guyinNC

Minnie,

You sound like such an incredible person..Your thoughts, your writings are very helpful. You deserve to be with someone who makes you happy and cares deeply for you.

I think you will find that person someday!

StandingStrong

Minnie, I'm very glad that you have posted this. I, for one, will not crucify you for it. If nothing else, I applaud you. For having given this subject a lot of thought, consideration, and for posting your thoughts aloud knowing that they may not be well received. Honesty is big with me - and that is all I hear in your posts.

I am not sure what I think as far as the personlity disorder goes. I've not looked into it enough to even give an opinion. But I do agree with something you said and it's something that my Dad and I have spoken about quite often when we speak of AH. My Dad talks about a bush and how that bush has many branches. Financial irresponsibility is one branch, drinking is another branch, etc. Each branch can be broken or mended, but until you get to the root of that bush, the branches are in essence only a small portion of the bush. (hence; a symptom of a greater thing than the alcholism alone).
I don't believe that all people with a personality disorder will become alcoholics or addicts. But I think that the drinking may be their escape from the pain in which they struggle through - such as using it to self-medicate, using it to escape from reality for awhile. As I said, I don't know much about personality disorder, but I do know that myself, personally, had some weird things happen when I was younger that I cannot explain. (Such as once a bunch of us were laughing in class, when suddenly my tears of laughter turned to just tears. The laughing had stopped and I was crying. Why? I to this day cannot tell you why. Nor has that ever happened to me since, though I've felt the mood swings, but just never let them get out of control????) I've also been one to mood swing as well as I believe that I am prone to become depressed easier/more often than most people I know. Just last year, my grandfather died. He'd been an alcoholic for years and then didn't drink for years. However, he was still not what most people would call "normal". I found out that he'd been diagnosed with bipolar months before his death. This explains alot about him and his actions - but makes me fear for myself because of what I've mentioned above about myself already.
So I guess I wonder if I do have even a slight personality disorder, why didn't I become an alcoholic? Why is it that my brother who has always had everything going for him - why is he an alcoholic and I am not? My AH (who I've known since we were 6 years old) had more than he realized and still sank into the depths of alcoholism when all signs from what I've seen showed him to be one that wouldn't.
But what I have noticed in my own quest for understanding is the link that I tend to see repeated in people that have low self esteem & being alcoholic. But there again, not everyone with low self esteem becomes alcoholic. so maybe a personality disorder and low self esteem as well as many other things can be adding factors, but again, not the entire picture. ?????
I'm really not sure if I"ve made any sense here minnie, but I think I'll re-read your post again tomorrow and think on it some more. And thank you minnie for posting this - I think all education is beneficial and I believe that we all can keep learning - and this includes science as well. Look how often we've been told something is good for us only to be told later that it isn't. Science, research, etc. shall someday give us answers that we seek - but the mind is complex and we may never really know. Regardless, I applaud you for having put your thoughts together so well and for questioning something that you believe is a possibility.
Regardless of the answers - we must seek to learn.

sketscher

Minnie, I am sure that it is entirely possible that someone with a personality disorder could self medicate and thus become an A. I just learned for instance that a cousin of mine who died of A was also diagnosed bi-polar. She was only 47.

My xabf could easily fit BPD from the lists that you had links to previously. But he is not just maintenance drinking. I think he is sober at work but he'll have beer startng right after coffee on weekends and but there are nights when he is completely falling down drunk too.

Has anyone heard of Naltrexone? I found this small blip in "woman's world" magazine about this drug which is injected and reduces an A's binging. Just curious I cut it out and was going to give it to xabf but I thought it would be pointless.

susane1408

Still not got back to this, but I will

susane1408

When I found SR I knew nothing, nada, zip about alcoholism or the many people that are afflicted with this condition. I only knew my partner P (his initial, I am uncomfortable with defining a person by their disabilities) I was searching for knowledge of his condition and how best to deal with all it's implications.
The WWW provided a great deal of knowledge that has helped me understand P and be constructive in his desire to be free of his addiction.
What I did find here at SR is that P didn't fit the 'profile' of many of the A's discussed here.
I think it was Walkingtheline who said ours was “ an interesting case”.
I too have an aversion to labels and generalisations, they may serve to describe predominant characteristics of the general population in a specific group but it clouds us seeing the individual.
No Minnie I don't buy this either. It has been said that alcohol consumption may bring out abusive traits if the individual already has these traits suppressed within them and I think from the evidence found on SR that this must be true; and I think that I can safely say (from P's experience) that alcohol can start out being a form of escape, self-medication etc for psychological problems but escalates into physical dependence. In my opinion alcohol excesses are a symptom that comes about through a persons life experiences and/or their characteristics and psychological profile.
The jury is still out on the genetics question but recent discoveries show that they may be nearer to a conclusion now, the conclusion is tipping in favour of a 'for' decision in some cases.
http://www.newkerala.com/news.php?ac...lnews&id=30074
I think that Alcoholism is such a complex subject that it just can,t be put in a box and labelled.

I can't speak for Equus ( wouldn't dream of it!!) but I can describe for the benefit of new members what P is like ( and apologise in advance for the gushing!)

My P is..... Caring, sharing, honest, lovable, intelligent, articulate, protective, adores me totally, hard working , competent and reliable at his job,wanted me to participate in his recovery, is liked and respected by every-one even those who know he is alcohol dependant.
I could go on but I'd need to start handing out sick bags
I think this is what Minnie means about not 'fitting'

equus

I lordy - YEP! I agree. Of course we can be understanding but sometimes you should hear my best mates partner talk, she manages a city centre pub and could teach most folk a thing or two about 'drunks'. First of all she sees those who tell everyone they love them, those who cry in their beer, those who are violent and those who are verbally/emotionally abusive. There are ones she has time for and ones she don't but above all she says you can see in them sober the same things you can drunk - just more inhibited. She says the ones who love everyone drunk, are friendly sober, the nasty ones aren't pleasant sober etc etc.

Alcohol can't give someone a skill they don't already have - D is very social drunk which is why I know he has all those skills, all the alcohol can do is uninhibit them - not provide them. If D was a skilled emotional abuser drunk that skill would have to come from somewhere - I would be wary. A decade ago a very pickled D would still fall over himself to help folk - although the more drunk he was the less helpful it was and the more insistant he could help he was!! I wasn't so worried I'd be in for a shock with him sober - he's basically the same distracted, dotty, good hearted person.

Now onto the Bdp thing. BPD is a relatively new diagnosis surrounded by a share of controversy so it's worth treating with a degree of caution. It's been refered to as the waste paper basket diagnosis - nothing else? Then BPD it is! However it is gaining ground. Supporters believe it's biggest obstacle has been it's broad spectrum of criteria leading to incorrect diagnosis, also because it's relatively new it will spend a while being the one no-one has the most experience with (although that's changing FAST). I want to watch and see - there will be some validity for it to get where it has and it will be interesting to see how it progresses as a diagnostic group.

The second issue about differing conditions is that they can come in 'families'. For example OCD is distinct from Autism but there is often a family link. Tourettes and OCD are HEAVILY linked and share some criteria. It's a bit like the observation that chesnut mares throw grey foals and vice versa. However examine the coat of a chesnut horse closely and most likely you will see grey hairs all ove the place!

Then there's another twist in the loop - a genotype may produce a less expected phenotype. In other words there's more than a single cause so genetics may explain BPD or alcohol dependency - but only to a certain extent. D's brother shares alot of his genes but is t-total because he saw what happened to D. It's plausable that both share a gene making them vulnerable but only one drank.

I have a leaning towards genetic stuff and it's influence partly from years working with horses. A horse's temperament is mostly influenced by it's training BUT ye gods you could spot a 'Bowman' youngster. I never met Bowman and judging by his youngstock I wouldn't want to - that would be one dangerous stallion! You get a new youngster delivered, walk in the box and it tries to kill you - you leave and shout at your boss that he could have warned you we had a 'Bowman' in!!

And there's more - any stable hand will tell you horses react differently to what they eat. Oats will send one horse crackers - like godzilla on a string, but to another it's a good foodstuff!

Then of course there's medical evidence! However the problem lies in trying to determine a single cause - that's nuts, give it time and I'll bet my head the diagnosis subdivides. You never know maybe one day there will be 'BPD- Substance Dependancy' 'Behavioural Substance Dependancy' 'Alcohol intolerant - Chemical Dependency'. Prabably still there would still be no SINGLE cause for any label.

Edit!! I should add by BPD I'm refering to Borderline Personality Disorder - NOT Bi-Polar! The latter has been around a lot longer and is far more firmly 'bedded in'.

DesertEyes

Hey there Minnie, great questions as always :-)

>> ... I am having a bit of a personal (internal) crisis at the moment.

I am truly sorry to hear that. Know that all us codies in the world are praying for you and are willing to listen to you.

If you like reading up on addiction and such check out

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov

that'll keep you busy for at least a weekend ;-)

As far as "multiple diagnosis".... well sure. Alcohol and drugs have all kinds of emotional effects, anybody who has any kind of emotional or psychiatric disorder is going to get a kick out of booze or drugs. There's a concept in the psychiatric community known as "high functional", which means that a crazy person is able to _almost_ act normal. A little bit of chemical support can certainly help those folks look totally normal.

>> ... and their descriptions just don't fit with those that we on SR commonly understand to be alcoholic behaviours, nor do they fit in with many (?any) passages in the BB. And that puzzles me.

There is no such thing as a "typical" alcoholic. Just like there is no such thing as a "typical" human being. Each and every one of us in unique, and so each drunk is going to be unique. The more time you spend with a person the more you will get to know their uniqueness. Same thing with a drunk. The longer you are involved with one the more you will see the differences in their insanity.

>> ... And the genetic argument which some alcoholics claim is the reason they are alcoholic?

Ummm... no, not quite. A person who is alcoholic is an alcoholic because they drink too much. Genetics, upbringing, stress, and so on may create a sensitiviy to alcohol, but none of those historical events will take a bottle of booze and physically shove the contents down my throat. Only _I_ can do that. There's an unnoficial "slogan" in AA that says "Yesterday may be a reason, but today it is not an excuse".

Here's a popular analogy: Strawberries.

Imagine that a person is allergic to strawberries. Imagine that their parents were allergic to strawberries, that they were insane and tortured this person with strawberries his entire childhood. Imagine that this person grows up and one day decides to check it out and eats a single strawberry. Imagine that this person has a weird reaction to the strawberry which causes him to jump in his car, drive maniacally, run over some stranger, and then crash into a tree.

Who's to blame when this person goes out the next weekend and eats a _second_ strawberry?

In AA we use that story to illustrate the difference between the "insanity" and the "disease". The reactions to the strawberry are a "disease". Eating the strawberry is the "insanity".

Whadya think?

>> ... But never again will I put myself in that position again. And I will work hard to make information available to others in similar abusive situations. It is not for me to judge others, but I think it is vital that each and every person has a choice. And limited information leads to limited choices.

Very well said. Welcome to recovery ;-)

Mike

minnie

Blimey - what wonderful responses! I've been putting off replying all day today because these all take a lot of thought. I'm going to sleep on it, but will make a few points.

I must stress that I'm not saying ALL alcoholics have a defined personality disorder. It came across that way, but it was not my intention. I just know that alcoholism became a red herring for me and has caused me quite a lot of needless soul-searching and guilt trips. Self-induced of course, but triggered by some attitudes and interpretations within al-anon that I'll save for another mammoth thread.

I try hard not to label people (it is something I am working on), but I do need to have some framework. I do my utmost to refer to behaviour, rather than the person. And sometimes I use shorthand in a very lazy fashion. The Personality Disorder issue is a tricky one. I think diagnosis is going to be really difficult for lots of reasons, not least because of medical education. It's not just about Borderline, but others too, such as Antisocial, Narcissistic etc etc.

And a special mention to GuyinNC - thank you. You made me smile at a time when those are in short supply.

I'll be back to this one, believe me.

susane1408

Nope, it didn't

equus

I agree - it didn't. It sounded to me like you were thinking about connections rather than it being the same thing.

Minnie - you know complete gits get diagnosed with cancer, if I found myself with a complete git I would leave because they're a git. I wouldn't feel as though any illness should mean they are somehow immune to gitness!

susane1408

:Terrific :Lmao Succinctly put!

escape artist

Minnie, the alcohol is a chemical and it does strange things to the brain. most behaviors which are expressed are most likely there because the alcohol soaked brain is not working properly. If you were being raised by someone who was not behaving in a manner which would suggest they were using the civilized part of their brain, then they are most likely resorting to the animal like part of their brain. Have you ever seen how a pack of wild dogs behave? and if you have been raised in this- wouldn't you believe that your conditioning would be a factor in how you "react" later on in life, unless there was some kind of intervention which taught one how to respond instead? I think so. just think of how we all say the same silly things our mothers said to us, when we are at our wits' end.

some of the abuse (i've been told by psychologists) when one is a child is not in their everyday awareness, but does come out in their "actions"- they will exhibit behaviors directly linked to when they were abused.

I'm beginning to wonder if the bi-polar disorder is just the brain trying to cope with certain traumatic experiences which were buried. (i'm not a doctor-just really interested in physiological aspects of the brain)

but aside from that, it is in the genes- maybe it is a mutation from the cells being abused--but my grandfather was an A, my father was an A, and i have the gene to be one--i have the capacity to drink alot and feel normal; i also have the ability to express lots of nasty behaviors which remind me of what i grew up with. i have had my addictions. -- and i wonder what the link to alcohol and sugar intolerance may be as well-i have a child who loves sugar and craves it as well; my others do not. this is just my opinion, and your research will surely be enlightening--keep in mind, there is no general consensus out there about alcoholism, there are many different camps-so you may end up becoming an expert on it!

minnie

Escape - please note that I referred to Borderline Personality Disorder NOT Bi-polar. Two very different things.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. On the one hand you mention chemicals and genetics and on the other environment and conditioning.

Personally, I think that the latter is the dominant driver of how we are as adults. However, I read an very interesting article at the weekend which links the two.

"Brighter later

The stress hormone cortisol plays a pivotal role in an adult's wellbeing, says Oliver James, but its levels are defined by our earliest life experiences

Sunday October 2, 2005
The Observer

At a dinner, back in the Eighties, a consultant neuropsychiatrist from the country's leading brain hospital told me that the fact that mentally ill and healthy people's brains are consistently different proved the causal role of genes.

He had never even considered the alternative - that the brains could be made different by nurture and social environment, not nature.

In the past 10 years, the evidence that this is often so has become overwhelming. In particular, it is now clear that adult levels of the hormone cortisol are profoundly affected by our care in the earliest years and even prenatally.

Cortisol is secreted to prepare us for fight or flight in dangerous situations. If a knife-wielding maniac hoves into view, we secrete or die. However, its set-point, the level to which it returns after the threat ends, varies. The level is like a thermostat, determined during pregnancy and infancy. Crucially, the concentration in our bloodstream is governed by early care, not by genes.

Levels of stress and cortisol in mothers during pregnancy predict emotional and behavioural problems, and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, in childhood. It seems the mother's stress is passed chemically into the foetus, continuing to affect its brain long after birth.

However, postnatal care is also vital. Maternal depression and alcoholism lead to abnormal cortisol levels which endure even after she has recovered. Being left with strangers in daycare does the same (but care by familiar childminders does not). If an infant does not feel secure, its levels go haywire because of the sense of threat.

Either the cortisol thermostat gets jammed permanently on, with the smallest thing triggering secretion, or it simply shuts off. Abnormally low levels result if the baby gets so used to crises that its state is one of permanent danger and nothing can convince it of a need to react. Hence, the most aggressive boys at school tend to have low cortisol, dating back to chronic neglect or hostility from carers in infancy, from which they have distanced themselves.

As Sue Gerhardt chronicles in her important and very readable book, Why Love Matters: How Affection Shapes a Baby's Brain, high and low cortisol are associated in adulthood with most mental illnesses, from depression to eating disorders to alcoholism. She also records how early experiences set our baselines for serotonin (low levels of which are connected with depression; high levels with violence) and abnormal brainwave patterns in the frontal lobes. Even the size of parts of the brain are affected. Persistent high cortisol in early life, reduces the number of key brain receptors when the brain is developing very rapidly.

What would the neuropsychiatrist say if I met him now? There's a good chance he would be largely ignorant of the role parenting plays in shaping the brain. Unfortunately, professional loyalties seem to require that everyone stays in their box, ignoring contrary science by prefacing their prejudice with the dictum that 'it's a bit of both' nature and nurture."