First post - couple of major issues
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: State of Uncertainty
Posts: 5
First post - couple of major issues
I'll keep this short as I can, and I'd appreciate any experience or insight you might share as I accelerate this journey I'm on.
In a nutshell, I'm a married man with 2 kids, approaching 40, and my marriage is in serious trouble. ACoA issues are at the root of it. My dad's an alcoholic - since before I was born and despite consequences as severe as a week in jail and a month in court-ordered residential rehab a few years ago, he has no intention of quitting. He's in his early 70s now, and I believe it's very likely he'll drink till the end. Mom's a nondrinker, classic codependent situation, never left him and still hopes he'll change, and I've learned from that family all the classic ACOA traits - I act as if I don't know who I really am, am passive/reactive/people-pleasing, over-intellectualize and am not able to trust my own feelings & judgement, hyper-attentive to others' needs, and so on.
My wife, though we were at similar spaces as far as self esteem and etc. when we met, has grown and matured in lots of great ways, and continues to - she's finally reached the point where she is tired of my not changing (despite my best intentions, I am a master of minimizing problems and have made incremental changes but not nearly enough to bridge the distance) and is losing hope for the marriage. Since she expressed that clearly enough even for me to hear it
, a week or two ago, I and we have made some adjustments and things feel stable for me to focus on my individual recovery, whether or not our marriage ever recovers and lasts. I began seeing a therapist who I think has the right experience and skills to help; I've given my wife the bedroom and am planning to shift things around in the house to claim a private space of my own as well - moving the kids into one room - so I can have a high-quality space of my own to serve my recovery (it won't happen with me living in the basement, or at least not as fast); I've been attending ACOA meetings again this past six months, ordered a pile of books, and found this site over the weekend.
so that's enough of the present day snapshot. two or things I'm working on facing, that I would really love to hear your experiences or resources about:
1) I'm intending to visit my folks in a couple of weeks, and am preparing myself to deliver the big intervention message - dad's drinking and mom's tolerating it has messed up my life in many ways, including my relationshipability with my wife, and I'm not going to have any more contact with him (them?) while he's still drinking; I'm going to finally focus on healing my basic wound, and need to declare myself outside of that system to do it.
2) I'm embarking on the self-discovery trail, to figure out who I really am and how and who I want to be. That's both very exciting and very scary, as it's very uncertain. My fundamental lack of self-confidence, along with a host of other issues, has kept me from consistently being at my best, and my wife's realization that she wasn't going to let me ruin her life by sticking around the way my mom did dad has helped me realize just how bad it really is. She has grown much more than me in the years we've been married, and I'm more or less a third child to her.
So that's my situation - we're together in the same house, but no longer so intimate (i.e., no sexual relationship, lots more distance than in past), and focused not on working 'it' out necessarily, but on setting up our situation to encourage each of our individual growth to happen, while we continue to raise the kids and manage the household responsibilities. It could be tons worse, and I'm feeling encouraged by the change in how it feels between us now that we're addressing it, but I expect I'll be facing significant pain and confusion in the coming months at least. Any reactions, from those further on up the road? either on how to claim self and self confidence away from the past patterns, or on the prospective trip to parents to let them know that the consequences of their life for me are not so happy as they've probably seemed.
Thanks for listening.
In a nutshell, I'm a married man with 2 kids, approaching 40, and my marriage is in serious trouble. ACoA issues are at the root of it. My dad's an alcoholic - since before I was born and despite consequences as severe as a week in jail and a month in court-ordered residential rehab a few years ago, he has no intention of quitting. He's in his early 70s now, and I believe it's very likely he'll drink till the end. Mom's a nondrinker, classic codependent situation, never left him and still hopes he'll change, and I've learned from that family all the classic ACOA traits - I act as if I don't know who I really am, am passive/reactive/people-pleasing, over-intellectualize and am not able to trust my own feelings & judgement, hyper-attentive to others' needs, and so on.
My wife, though we were at similar spaces as far as self esteem and etc. when we met, has grown and matured in lots of great ways, and continues to - she's finally reached the point where she is tired of my not changing (despite my best intentions, I am a master of minimizing problems and have made incremental changes but not nearly enough to bridge the distance) and is losing hope for the marriage. Since she expressed that clearly enough even for me to hear it
, a week or two ago, I and we have made some adjustments and things feel stable for me to focus on my individual recovery, whether or not our marriage ever recovers and lasts. I began seeing a therapist who I think has the right experience and skills to help; I've given my wife the bedroom and am planning to shift things around in the house to claim a private space of my own as well - moving the kids into one room - so I can have a high-quality space of my own to serve my recovery (it won't happen with me living in the basement, or at least not as fast); I've been attending ACOA meetings again this past six months, ordered a pile of books, and found this site over the weekend.so that's enough of the present day snapshot. two or things I'm working on facing, that I would really love to hear your experiences or resources about:
1) I'm intending to visit my folks in a couple of weeks, and am preparing myself to deliver the big intervention message - dad's drinking and mom's tolerating it has messed up my life in many ways, including my relationshipability with my wife, and I'm not going to have any more contact with him (them?) while he's still drinking; I'm going to finally focus on healing my basic wound, and need to declare myself outside of that system to do it.
2) I'm embarking on the self-discovery trail, to figure out who I really am and how and who I want to be. That's both very exciting and very scary, as it's very uncertain. My fundamental lack of self-confidence, along with a host of other issues, has kept me from consistently being at my best, and my wife's realization that she wasn't going to let me ruin her life by sticking around the way my mom did dad has helped me realize just how bad it really is. She has grown much more than me in the years we've been married, and I'm more or less a third child to her.
So that's my situation - we're together in the same house, but no longer so intimate (i.e., no sexual relationship, lots more distance than in past), and focused not on working 'it' out necessarily, but on setting up our situation to encourage each of our individual growth to happen, while we continue to raise the kids and manage the household responsibilities. It could be tons worse, and I'm feeling encouraged by the change in how it feels between us now that we're addressing it, but I expect I'll be facing significant pain and confusion in the coming months at least. Any reactions, from those further on up the road? either on how to claim self and self confidence away from the past patterns, or on the prospective trip to parents to let them know that the consequences of their life for me are not so happy as they've probably seemed.
Thanks for listening.
Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
I am wondering what you hope to accomplish by delivering your "intervention message". Sure my parents actions had a huge impact on my life but ultimately it is...and always was...up to me to live my best life. My mother was a huge codie and she never would have understood if I tried to intervene. Couple that with the fact that one of my own "symptoms" is trying way too hard to get someone else to get it....it's just not productive for me to go there.
Acceptance is at the core of any 12 step program. I had to learn to accept the alcoholics in my life and take a hands off approach in order to heal myself. That includes my parents. They have wounds too and have developed their own ways to lick them.
Something else I have learned on my journey is not to do things that I may end up regretting. Doing nothing at all can be an action...a choice. There is always tomorrow.
Al Anon is my program. It is much more available than ACOA and it has taken me far in healing the past.
I wish you peace,
JT
Acceptance is at the core of any 12 step program. I had to learn to accept the alcoholics in my life and take a hands off approach in order to heal myself. That includes my parents. They have wounds too and have developed their own ways to lick them.
Something else I have learned on my journey is not to do things that I may end up regretting. Doing nothing at all can be an action...a choice. There is always tomorrow.
Al Anon is my program. It is much more available than ACOA and it has taken me far in healing the past.
I wish you peace,
JT
believer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: walking in faith
Posts: 1,023
Hi Tassle and welcome.
I agree with JT about the intervention speech. Your parents have lived their entire lives stuck in addiction and codependency. They will not understand where you are coming from and you won't receive the validation you seek. They did not mess up your life. Their behaviors may have instilled unhealthy patterns of relating to people in you, but they were doing the best they knew how to do. It is up to you to change your life and to recognize the issues that need addressing within yourself, but making a big speech to your parents and assigning blame isn't going to help.
Acceptance and forgiveness of the past is they key to moving forward. Taking responsibility for your own recovery and happiness is also extremely important. You have to want to change for you, not to try to save your marriage, although that is a very good motivator. My life changed when I got rid of all the people, places, and situations I used as excuses for being stuck where I was. That's not to say I stoppped talking to my parents or my husband, but recovery is a solo venture and I had to detach myself a bit from the world until I made the necessary changes within me.
Take care and good luck on your journey.
Hugs,
JG
I agree with JT about the intervention speech. Your parents have lived their entire lives stuck in addiction and codependency. They will not understand where you are coming from and you won't receive the validation you seek. They did not mess up your life. Their behaviors may have instilled unhealthy patterns of relating to people in you, but they were doing the best they knew how to do. It is up to you to change your life and to recognize the issues that need addressing within yourself, but making a big speech to your parents and assigning blame isn't going to help.
Acceptance and forgiveness of the past is they key to moving forward. Taking responsibility for your own recovery and happiness is also extremely important. You have to want to change for you, not to try to save your marriage, although that is a very good motivator. My life changed when I got rid of all the people, places, and situations I used as excuses for being stuck where I was. That's not to say I stoppped talking to my parents or my husband, but recovery is a solo venture and I had to detach myself a bit from the world until I made the necessary changes within me.
Take care and good luck on your journey.
Hugs,
JG
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: State of Uncertainty
Posts: 5
JT and JG, thanks for the kind and thoughtful responses. I'm surprised that both of you so strongly discourage me from talking openly with my parents about the consequences of alcohol on my life, along with theirs. Perhaps calling it the 'big intervention speech' made it seem as if I expected to get something specific from them as a result -- JG mentioned validation and JT understanding -- in fact what I intend is simply to be direct and honest with them in a way I never have been, about the consequences, and I called it 'intervention' because I'm likely to end my contact with my dad while he's still drinking (which I've practically done the past five years or so as it is, but never having articulated that his drinking is a big reason, not simply time and busy-ness, etc.), and that reminds me of the classic intervention to help an addict recognize they have a problem.
I don't mean to be defensive, I'm just interested whether JT and JG represent a consensus view on this general issue, or if there are other viewpoints out there. Rather than start a new post, I'll just ask here if anyone has an experience on that topic - what's your relationship like with 'unrecovering' parents during your recovery? Do/did you maintain a relationhship as whatever it can be, or drift away from them silently, or communicate directly with them what you've learned about yourself in some form? And what's it been like?
Thanks again for the supportive responses.
I don't mean to be defensive, I'm just interested whether JT and JG represent a consensus view on this general issue, or if there are other viewpoints out there. Rather than start a new post, I'll just ask here if anyone has an experience on that topic - what's your relationship like with 'unrecovering' parents during your recovery? Do/did you maintain a relationhship as whatever it can be, or drift away from them silently, or communicate directly with them what you've learned about yourself in some form? And what's it been like?
Thanks again for the supportive responses.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: morrow Ga
Posts: 1
I admire your honesty your words of truth and hurt touched me. I too have experienced what you have and still am at this time in my life even at 48. searching to find ME.
I am also new here Through the grace of God stumbled across this web site. There is a reason for everything.
I want to share something with you- It may or may not help!
I lost both my parents 3 months apart in 1999 My father at 56 was a recovering alchoholic, my mother co-dependant leaving him from time to time but to always find her way back to him.
Myself and 2 other siblings lived in hell along with my mother I can relate to your feelings on the issue here.
My father never attended any of our graduations because he was too drunk although he provided well for all of us. He messed up our lives growing up NEVER being there as a father for any of us, and especially when we needed him.
I am the middle child and female now 48 years old been married 3 times I am attractive and have no problem getting a date, but I always fall for the guy whom isn't worthy of ME, but even aware of this, I still somehow because of my dysfuctional habits Chose the worst relationships.
I have one daughter 23 that I am proud to say I raised with the help of my sober mother and recovering alcoholic father, he did alot of sliding before he got his life together and was saved and I praise God for that.
I have one grandson and I would give anything today if my parents were here just to see this beautiful child, However in the cruel and messed up society we live in It is selfish for me to want this. I know that they are both in Heaven without a doubt Happy and together rejoicing in the LORD.
My point is I live alone I am no longer in a dysfuctional relationship (Today) and even though I know when the red flag pops up to run I some how hang on with a ray of hopethat I will find a NORMAL relationship but then again is there any NORMAL left?
I am jobless at this time and am living each day digging money from my piggy bank literally, and don't know where I will get another job, I have lost two jobs that have allowed me to survive and do well as a single mother,providing for myself until recently.However I still have no direction of where I am going even though every day I live I hold my head up and keep looking for a job I can't give up. I am a survivor, ACoA are just that SURVIVORS.
My advice to you is this: Your Father is a sick man, he has a disease and he can not by the grace of God get better until he realizes he needs help, even though he has probably admitted it 100000 of times he has to want help.
Bless Your Mother's heart He is all she has ever known, Heck I doubt she would know how to survive without him. Your Father may be 76 y/o and I personally would never turn my back on him (reason) he is sick! He may not have been a Father figure that you needed growing up, but if you should turn your back on him now when he passes you will live with regrets of this the rest of your life, never forgiving yourself.
I am sorry but I have to disagree Two wrongs don't make a right.
I know what it is to live a dysfuctional, lonley, embarresing life with an drunken father, that never once lifted me up, or spoke positive words towards myself or other siblings and believe me I live with the results of that every day and in their ways so do they.
I will tell you this I was blessed that my father was sober when he died, and before he passed he spoke to each one of us individually, allowing each of us to know how sorry he was for all the wrong he did and not being there for us, Not being the Father he wished he could haveand how he regreted mis-treating us and our mother etc. Even my Mother forgave him for the beatings she took, and how terrible he mistreated her.
I am grateful for this every day, that he was able to repent of his wrongs to us and even GOD and even though I forgave him it some how doesn't take the hurt away.
Your Father knows of his wrong doings and has regrets and is haunted every day of his stinking drinking Maybe he has no idea of how to get help, Does he know God? Maybe you should lead him to him, If you know God yourself and I am sure you do.
I would think that you would not go to him to tell him you are walking out of his life, Can you imagine the hurt? Heck he is 76 y/o I am sure he want live many more years and why should you lessen them even more with a broken heart?
Even though my mother had Cancer and so did my Father I believe that she died because of lonliness from the passing of my Father she was lonley, not knowing how to live without him.
If I were going to speak with him:
Iwould allow him to know what he has done to you as far as pain and spill your heart out to him, Tell him you would like to see him sober before he passes on but If he never does regardless you will never forget what he has done to you and your Mother and family but, you hope to be able to one day and right now your Forgive him.
I miss my Father and Mother so much even though it has been almost 7 years now it seems like Yesterday they both were a part of my life. NO it wasn't the best life and I never wish it on anyone but I tell you I loved them both Yes, My sick alchoholic father through the abuse and sickness as a family I loved him, and MY Mother bless her heart for the courage she taught me and the back bone I learnt from her.
NO matter how many times I have allowed myself to fall I am Thankful I have the courage and the wisdom to pick myself up.
WE only have one chance in this life... Forgive and Let Go
Life is too short.
May God Bless You and I as we walk together in this world of ours we know as dysfuction, May we hold our heads high and learn from what we have experienced and are still learning.
My friend I wish you the best I pray that some how these words have touched you and may shed light on your corner of the world.
Good Luck to you
I am also new here Through the grace of God stumbled across this web site. There is a reason for everything.
I want to share something with you- It may or may not help!
I lost both my parents 3 months apart in 1999 My father at 56 was a recovering alchoholic, my mother co-dependant leaving him from time to time but to always find her way back to him.
Myself and 2 other siblings lived in hell along with my mother I can relate to your feelings on the issue here.
My father never attended any of our graduations because he was too drunk although he provided well for all of us. He messed up our lives growing up NEVER being there as a father for any of us, and especially when we needed him.
I am the middle child and female now 48 years old been married 3 times I am attractive and have no problem getting a date, but I always fall for the guy whom isn't worthy of ME, but even aware of this, I still somehow because of my dysfuctional habits Chose the worst relationships.
I have one daughter 23 that I am proud to say I raised with the help of my sober mother and recovering alcoholic father, he did alot of sliding before he got his life together and was saved and I praise God for that.
I have one grandson and I would give anything today if my parents were here just to see this beautiful child, However in the cruel and messed up society we live in It is selfish for me to want this. I know that they are both in Heaven without a doubt Happy and together rejoicing in the LORD.
My point is I live alone I am no longer in a dysfuctional relationship (Today) and even though I know when the red flag pops up to run I some how hang on with a ray of hopethat I will find a NORMAL relationship but then again is there any NORMAL left?
I am jobless at this time and am living each day digging money from my piggy bank literally, and don't know where I will get another job, I have lost two jobs that have allowed me to survive and do well as a single mother,providing for myself until recently.However I still have no direction of where I am going even though every day I live I hold my head up and keep looking for a job I can't give up. I am a survivor, ACoA are just that SURVIVORS.
My advice to you is this: Your Father is a sick man, he has a disease and he can not by the grace of God get better until he realizes he needs help, even though he has probably admitted it 100000 of times he has to want help.
Bless Your Mother's heart He is all she has ever known, Heck I doubt she would know how to survive without him. Your Father may be 76 y/o and I personally would never turn my back on him (reason) he is sick! He may not have been a Father figure that you needed growing up, but if you should turn your back on him now when he passes you will live with regrets of this the rest of your life, never forgiving yourself.
I am sorry but I have to disagree Two wrongs don't make a right.
I know what it is to live a dysfuctional, lonley, embarresing life with an drunken father, that never once lifted me up, or spoke positive words towards myself or other siblings and believe me I live with the results of that every day and in their ways so do they.
I will tell you this I was blessed that my father was sober when he died, and before he passed he spoke to each one of us individually, allowing each of us to know how sorry he was for all the wrong he did and not being there for us, Not being the Father he wished he could haveand how he regreted mis-treating us and our mother etc. Even my Mother forgave him for the beatings she took, and how terrible he mistreated her.
I am grateful for this every day, that he was able to repent of his wrongs to us and even GOD and even though I forgave him it some how doesn't take the hurt away.
Your Father knows of his wrong doings and has regrets and is haunted every day of his stinking drinking Maybe he has no idea of how to get help, Does he know God? Maybe you should lead him to him, If you know God yourself and I am sure you do.
I would think that you would not go to him to tell him you are walking out of his life, Can you imagine the hurt? Heck he is 76 y/o I am sure he want live many more years and why should you lessen them even more with a broken heart?
Even though my mother had Cancer and so did my Father I believe that she died because of lonliness from the passing of my Father she was lonley, not knowing how to live without him.
If I were going to speak with him:
Iwould allow him to know what he has done to you as far as pain and spill your heart out to him, Tell him you would like to see him sober before he passes on but If he never does regardless you will never forget what he has done to you and your Mother and family but, you hope to be able to one day and right now your Forgive him.
I miss my Father and Mother so much even though it has been almost 7 years now it seems like Yesterday they both were a part of my life. NO it wasn't the best life and I never wish it on anyone but I tell you I loved them both Yes, My sick alchoholic father through the abuse and sickness as a family I loved him, and MY Mother bless her heart for the courage she taught me and the back bone I learnt from her.
NO matter how many times I have allowed myself to fall I am Thankful I have the courage and the wisdom to pick myself up.
WE only have one chance in this life... Forgive and Let Go
Life is too short.
May God Bless You and I as we walk together in this world of ours we know as dysfuction, May we hold our heads high and learn from what we have experienced and are still learning.
My friend I wish you the best I pray that some how these words have touched you and may shed light on your corner of the world.
Good Luck to you
Cruelty-Free
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Body: South Florida Heart: Yosemite National Park
Posts: 914
Hi tassle, and welcome to SR!
My relationships with human beings in general, and my parents specifically, have improved as my recovery deepens and I grow.
Both of my alcoholic/addict parents have stopped using, but I can't say they're in any sort of recovery. Truth be told, whether they are in recovery or not has ceased to be what I consider my business.
After my mom stopped using and attended meetings (her "court-ordered sobriety" period...), she continued to live with her active addict boyfriend. One of the hardest calls I've ever had to make was the one in which I expressed to her that I would not be at her home for T'giving dinner... for the 1st time in our lives. I didn't make the boundary about him, her, or what either of them was doing. I made the boundary about me: "I'm not going to be there because I'm not comfortable in certain situations that will most likely come up at the house. It's not about you or him. It's just that I'm not willing to be someplace where, historically, I'm not able to maintain my serenity. I love you, and I hope you'll be ok with me taking care of myself in this way..." Notice all the "I" statements.
As fearful as I was as to what her reaction would be (boy, can I project!), she told me she understood and all turned out well.
Had I confronted her about her behaviors and choices, I'm fairly certain she would have perceived it as an attack and the outcome would have been greatly different. It's simply not my job to try to break through anyone else's denial.
So, I nurture the relationships because I value them. I also understand that I can't get bread at the hardware store (thank you, Al-Anon!), so I have to let go of what I want those people to be and accept them as they are. Mom's never gonna be just Mom, 'cos--using or not--she'll always be an addict. I have to meet her where she is, and today that's where she is. That, for me, is a show of unconditional love.
Peace...
Originally Posted by tassle
what's your relationship like with 'unrecovering' parents during your recovery? Do/did you maintain a relationhship as whatever it can be, or drift away from them silently, or communicate directly with them what you've learned about yourself in some form? And what's it been like?
Both of my alcoholic/addict parents have stopped using, but I can't say they're in any sort of recovery. Truth be told, whether they are in recovery or not has ceased to be what I consider my business.
After my mom stopped using and attended meetings (her "court-ordered sobriety" period...), she continued to live with her active addict boyfriend. One of the hardest calls I've ever had to make was the one in which I expressed to her that I would not be at her home for T'giving dinner... for the 1st time in our lives. I didn't make the boundary about him, her, or what either of them was doing. I made the boundary about me: "I'm not going to be there because I'm not comfortable in certain situations that will most likely come up at the house. It's not about you or him. It's just that I'm not willing to be someplace where, historically, I'm not able to maintain my serenity. I love you, and I hope you'll be ok with me taking care of myself in this way..." Notice all the "I" statements.
As fearful as I was as to what her reaction would be (boy, can I project!), she told me she understood and all turned out well.
Had I confronted her about her behaviors and choices, I'm fairly certain she would have perceived it as an attack and the outcome would have been greatly different. It's simply not my job to try to break through anyone else's denial.
So, I nurture the relationships because I value them. I also understand that I can't get bread at the hardware store (thank you, Al-Anon!), so I have to let go of what I want those people to be and accept them as they are. Mom's never gonna be just Mom, 'cos--using or not--she'll always be an addict. I have to meet her where she is, and today that's where she is. That, for me, is a show of unconditional love.
Peace...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Faith without works is dead
Posts: 26
Shaming your parents for what they did in the past will not accomplish much, other than you releasing some anger/frustration. However, it is your responsibility to work on yourself and/or your marriage. Blaming your parents now is not going to change the fact that your marriage is struggling.
Maybe, you could tell them how you feel about your fathers drinking, and then detach yourself for a while, without announcing that you plan to sever all contact?
Please remember that the p's arent going to be able to fix this one-even if they wanted to. Your learned behaviors need to be changed, and as sucky as it is, thats all on you. Im not saying you dont have a right to your anger. Of course you do. But, you need to work through it (with a therapist?) not throw it back on your p's.
Check this out:
"We realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. Though we did not like their symptoms and the way they disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too."
"We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."
"We avoid retaliation or argument. We wouldnt treat sick people that way."
-AA Big Book, 4th edition. pp 66-67.
Good luck to you...
Maybe, you could tell them how you feel about your fathers drinking, and then detach yourself for a while, without announcing that you plan to sever all contact?
Please remember that the p's arent going to be able to fix this one-even if they wanted to. Your learned behaviors need to be changed, and as sucky as it is, thats all on you. Im not saying you dont have a right to your anger. Of course you do. But, you need to work through it (with a therapist?) not throw it back on your p's.
Check this out:
"We realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. Though we did not like their symptoms and the way they disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too."
"We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."
"We avoid retaliation or argument. We wouldnt treat sick people that way."
-AA Big Book, 4th edition. pp 66-67.
Good luck to you...
Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
My relationships with human beings in general, and my parents specifically, have improved as my recovery deepens and I grow.
I was in no way advising you either way...I was wanting to know your motive. If I was going to give advice it would be to wait. As the above quote points out I have grown so much in the years that I have been in recovery that the things I wanted to do in the beginning have no place in my life now.
My son is an alcoholic and has created havoc in our lives. I will never close the door on that relationship. I may cut a conversation short or even hang up when he is drunk but I welcome talking to him when he is sober and relatively happy. I don't accept his excuses or his blame but I don't argue the point either. It's about meeting him where he is as was also mentioned above. I could not cut him out with a clear conscience and I need to be honest with myself in order to have any peace. That's me. You are you and you have to do whatever you have to do to achieve the peace you are looking for.
There is no right or wrong.... but you were asking for experience from those a little further up the road.
Hugs,
JT
believer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: walking in faith
Posts: 1,023
Hi Tassle,
I wasn't trying to advise you either way, at least I don't think so.
I was suggesting that the conversation may not turn out the way you hope. There's a certain expectation, perhaps, that your parents will see the error of their ways and assume responsibility for the past. My experience tells me that's not going to happen. I dealt with a lot of anger as I uncovered issues about myself. During that time I drifted away from my parents somewhat, b/c I had no desire to accuse them of any wrongdoing yet my feelings were too raw to be able to communicate with them in a non-threatening way. Once I got past the anger and realized it was up to me to let go and move on, I closed the book on the past and started living in today.
My recovery is mine alone. I have not shared any insight with my parents. They would wrongly assume I was assigning blame and as I said, I have no wish to ever go there with them. But accepting what was has strengthened my relationship with them. Even though they still exhibit some of the same unrecovered behaviors, that doesn't mean I have to continue letting those behaviors affect me.
By the way, another strange thing happened. The more recovered I become, the more I realize they aren't as sick as I once thought they were.
Hugs,
JG
I wasn't trying to advise you either way, at least I don't think so.
I was suggesting that the conversation may not turn out the way you hope. There's a certain expectation, perhaps, that your parents will see the error of their ways and assume responsibility for the past. My experience tells me that's not going to happen.
Do/did you maintain a relationhship as whatever it can be, or drift away from them silently, or communicate directly with them what you've learned about yourself in some form? And what's it been like?
My recovery is mine alone. I have not shared any insight with my parents. They would wrongly assume I was assigning blame and as I said, I have no wish to ever go there with them. But accepting what was has strengthened my relationship with them. Even though they still exhibit some of the same unrecovered behaviors, that doesn't mean I have to continue letting those behaviors affect me.
By the way, another strange thing happened. The more recovered I become, the more I realize they aren't as sick as I once thought they were.
Hugs,
JG
Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: crazy planet
Posts: 32
Tassel,
my parents NEVER admitted to being alcoholics. My dad(passive aggressive ) passed away a few years ago and my mom has been her usual MEAN and closet drinker self. My siblings and myself felt some type of intervention was necessary but also knew our mother would not speak to any of us again if we chose to do so, As this sounds like a peachy keen prospect, I mentioned it would serve little purpose to tell her she is a mean b..ch who has spent her life making everyone around her miserable(I think she hates herself worse than she hates the rest of the world), we all know it and she ain't gonna change at 73. We have all been in the program,some for AA and others for al-anon and some of us have been in phyically abusive relationships and others verbal and others have had alcoholic spouses or alcoholic themselves and most of us have at least one child following in our foot steps. We decided to just speak to her Doctor and take care of the medication concerns we had and leave it at that. We are all trying to get well here and it is hard work.
What ever you choose to do, make it the best decision for you and your family.
Prayers and Hugs to you and your family.
my parents NEVER admitted to being alcoholics. My dad(passive aggressive ) passed away a few years ago and my mom has been her usual MEAN and closet drinker self. My siblings and myself felt some type of intervention was necessary but also knew our mother would not speak to any of us again if we chose to do so, As this sounds like a peachy keen prospect, I mentioned it would serve little purpose to tell her she is a mean b..ch who has spent her life making everyone around her miserable(I think she hates herself worse than she hates the rest of the world), we all know it and she ain't gonna change at 73. We have all been in the program,some for AA and others for al-anon and some of us have been in phyically abusive relationships and others verbal and others have had alcoholic spouses or alcoholic themselves and most of us have at least one child following in our foot steps. We decided to just speak to her Doctor and take care of the medication concerns we had and leave it at that. We are all trying to get well here and it is hard work.
What ever you choose to do, make it the best decision for you and your family.
Prayers and Hugs to you and your family.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Greenville Kentucky
Posts: 44
Tassle,
First, welcome to SR.
I wish you well on this journey you're about to take. It won't be easy however you seem to have all your plans in place...are you a lawyer? *smile*.
I have gleaned much information about you as a person from reading your post. You have made the choice to confront your father as well as your mother already. You knew before you posted, what steps you were and wanted to take to address this matter with your family. Your post was asking a specific question of the users in this forum. With that, I will give you a straight forward reply.
From one "shoot-from-the-hip" sort of person to another, here is my reply to your post.
Your father is clearly set in his ways as well as your mother. No amount of words or emotions are going to change the path they are on. You can confront them both and "take a load off" by your verbal confrontation, but in the end what good will it really do them or you for that matter?
It is very apparent that you have excellent written communication skills. Might I suggest you write them a letter? As you are well aware of, a letter affords you the opportunity to express yourself in such a way as you will not be interupted. You will be able to put your emotions into words and leave no room for a heated debate or confrontation.
It's very important for your recovery that you address this matter. It's not what you say, it's how you say it that will determine your first step in your journey.
Never forget that your parents are they way they are because of the environment they grew up in. Take a look at the "era" and the "time" in which they lived. It's the same "era" and "time" in which my parents lived in. I'm not telling you to be a bleeding heart sap, I'm telling you to stand up for yourself but do it in an honorable way. Don't be a brute and don't start your journey out by being jerk.
There will be many opportunities down the road for "venting", in a healthy way. I will validate your right to confront those who caused you harm, pain and added to your suffering. I won't validate or support hate or negative forms of dealing with those emotions. It will do you no good in your recovery to meet such negative emotions with the same force.
Pain comes first then anger. Anger is a secondary emotion, it is caused by pain. Not physical pain but emotional pain. I will validate the pain you have suffered because it has stunted your growth in so many ways.
I type these things because when I read your post, when I went beyond the words and dug deeper...I was reminded of where I had been. Pefection is not possible, it's just a way to cover the pain Tassle...I will see you on the road to recovery! *smile*
Kat-
First, welcome to SR.
I wish you well on this journey you're about to take. It won't be easy however you seem to have all your plans in place...are you a lawyer? *smile*.
I have gleaned much information about you as a person from reading your post. You have made the choice to confront your father as well as your mother already. You knew before you posted, what steps you were and wanted to take to address this matter with your family. Your post was asking a specific question of the users in this forum. With that, I will give you a straight forward reply.
From one "shoot-from-the-hip" sort of person to another, here is my reply to your post.
Your father is clearly set in his ways as well as your mother. No amount of words or emotions are going to change the path they are on. You can confront them both and "take a load off" by your verbal confrontation, but in the end what good will it really do them or you for that matter?
It is very apparent that you have excellent written communication skills. Might I suggest you write them a letter? As you are well aware of, a letter affords you the opportunity to express yourself in such a way as you will not be interupted. You will be able to put your emotions into words and leave no room for a heated debate or confrontation.
It's very important for your recovery that you address this matter. It's not what you say, it's how you say it that will determine your first step in your journey.
Never forget that your parents are they way they are because of the environment they grew up in. Take a look at the "era" and the "time" in which they lived. It's the same "era" and "time" in which my parents lived in. I'm not telling you to be a bleeding heart sap, I'm telling you to stand up for yourself but do it in an honorable way. Don't be a brute and don't start your journey out by being jerk.
There will be many opportunities down the road for "venting", in a healthy way. I will validate your right to confront those who caused you harm, pain and added to your suffering. I won't validate or support hate or negative forms of dealing with those emotions. It will do you no good in your recovery to meet such negative emotions with the same force.
Pain comes first then anger. Anger is a secondary emotion, it is caused by pain. Not physical pain but emotional pain. I will validate the pain you have suffered because it has stunted your growth in so many ways.
I type these things because when I read your post, when I went beyond the words and dug deeper...I was reminded of where I had been. Pefection is not possible, it's just a way to cover the pain Tassle...I will see you on the road to recovery! *smile*
Kat-
Putting it all together
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO.
Posts: 469
Originally Posted by tassle
I'll keep this short as I can, and I'd appreciate any experience or insight you might share as I accelerate this journey I'm on.
In a nutshell, I'm a married man with 2 kids, approaching 40, and my marriage is in serious trouble. ACoA issues are at the root of it. My dad's an alcoholic - since before I was born and despite consequences as severe as a week in jail and a month in court-ordered residential rehab a few years ago, he has no intention of quitting. He's in his early 70s now, and I believe it's very likely he'll drink till the end. Mom's a nondrinker, classic codependent situation, never left him and still hopes he'll change, and I've learned from that family all the classic ACOA traits - I act as if I don't know who I really am, am passive/reactive/people-pleasing, over-intellectualize and am not able to trust my own feelings & judgement, hyper-attentive to others' needs, and so on.
My wife, though we were at similar spaces as far as self esteem and etc. when we met, has grown and matured in lots of great ways, and continues to - she's finally reached the point where she is tired of my not changing (despite my best intentions, I am a master of minimizing problems and have made incremental changes but not nearly enough to bridge the distance) and is losing hope for the marriage. Since she expressed that clearly enough even for me to hear it, a week or two ago, I and we have made some adjustments and things feel stable for me to focus on my individual recovery, whether or not our marriage ever recovers and lasts. I began seeing a therapist who I think has the right experience and skills to help; I've given my wife the bedroom and am planning to shift things around in the house to claim a private space of my own as well - moving the kids into one room - so I can have a high-quality space of my own to serve my recovery (it won't happen with me living in the basement, or at least not as fast); I've been attending ACOA meetings again this past six months, ordered a pile of books, and found this site over the weekend.
so that's enough of the present day snapshot. two or things I'm working on facing, that I would really love to hear your experiences or resources about:
1) I'm intending to visit my folks in a couple of weeks, and am preparing myself to deliver the big intervention message - dad's drinking and mom's tolerating it has messed up my life in many ways, including my relationshipability with my wife, and I'm not going to have any more contact with him (them?) while he's still drinking; I'm going to finally focus on healing my basic wound, and need to declare myself outside of that system to do it.
2) I'm embarking on the self-discovery trail, to figure out who I really am and how and who I want to be. That's both very exciting and very scary, as it's very uncertain. My fundamental lack of self-confidence, along with a host of other issues, has kept me from consistently being at my best, and my wife's realization that she wasn't going to let me ruin her life by sticking around the way my mom did dad has helped me realize just how bad it really is. She has grown much more than me in the years we've been married, and I'm more or less a third child to her.
So that's my situation - we're together in the same house, but no longer so intimate (i.e., no sexual relationship, lots more distance than in past), and focused not on working 'it' out necessarily, but on setting up our situation to encourage each of our individual growth to happen, while we continue to raise the kids and manage the household responsibilities. It could be tons worse, and I'm feeling encouraged by the change in how it feels between us now that we're addressing it, but I expect I'll be facing significant pain and confusion in the coming months at least. Any reactions, from those further on up the road? either on how to claim self and self confidence away from the past patterns, or on the prospective trip to parents to let them know that the consequences of their life for me are not so happy as they've probably seemed.
Thanks for listening.
In a nutshell, I'm a married man with 2 kids, approaching 40, and my marriage is in serious trouble. ACoA issues are at the root of it. My dad's an alcoholic - since before I was born and despite consequences as severe as a week in jail and a month in court-ordered residential rehab a few years ago, he has no intention of quitting. He's in his early 70s now, and I believe it's very likely he'll drink till the end. Mom's a nondrinker, classic codependent situation, never left him and still hopes he'll change, and I've learned from that family all the classic ACOA traits - I act as if I don't know who I really am, am passive/reactive/people-pleasing, over-intellectualize and am not able to trust my own feelings & judgement, hyper-attentive to others' needs, and so on.
My wife, though we were at similar spaces as far as self esteem and etc. when we met, has grown and matured in lots of great ways, and continues to - she's finally reached the point where she is tired of my not changing (despite my best intentions, I am a master of minimizing problems and have made incremental changes but not nearly enough to bridge the distance) and is losing hope for the marriage. Since she expressed that clearly enough even for me to hear it
, a week or two ago, I and we have made some adjustments and things feel stable for me to focus on my individual recovery, whether or not our marriage ever recovers and lasts. I began seeing a therapist who I think has the right experience and skills to help; I've given my wife the bedroom and am planning to shift things around in the house to claim a private space of my own as well - moving the kids into one room - so I can have a high-quality space of my own to serve my recovery (it won't happen with me living in the basement, or at least not as fast); I've been attending ACOA meetings again this past six months, ordered a pile of books, and found this site over the weekend.so that's enough of the present day snapshot. two or things I'm working on facing, that I would really love to hear your experiences or resources about:
1) I'm intending to visit my folks in a couple of weeks, and am preparing myself to deliver the big intervention message - dad's drinking and mom's tolerating it has messed up my life in many ways, including my relationshipability with my wife, and I'm not going to have any more contact with him (them?) while he's still drinking; I'm going to finally focus on healing my basic wound, and need to declare myself outside of that system to do it.
2) I'm embarking on the self-discovery trail, to figure out who I really am and how and who I want to be. That's both very exciting and very scary, as it's very uncertain. My fundamental lack of self-confidence, along with a host of other issues, has kept me from consistently being at my best, and my wife's realization that she wasn't going to let me ruin her life by sticking around the way my mom did dad has helped me realize just how bad it really is. She has grown much more than me in the years we've been married, and I'm more or less a third child to her.
So that's my situation - we're together in the same house, but no longer so intimate (i.e., no sexual relationship, lots more distance than in past), and focused not on working 'it' out necessarily, but on setting up our situation to encourage each of our individual growth to happen, while we continue to raise the kids and manage the household responsibilities. It could be tons worse, and I'm feeling encouraged by the change in how it feels between us now that we're addressing it, but I expect I'll be facing significant pain and confusion in the coming months at least. Any reactions, from those further on up the road? either on how to claim self and self confidence away from the past patterns, or on the prospective trip to parents to let them know that the consequences of their life for me are not so happy as they've probably seemed.
Thanks for listening.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: State of Uncertainty
Posts: 5
Thanks again for all the loving and heartfelt comments and reactions. This thread and some conversations with several good friends have helped me to continue exploring my motivations for this trip to my folks. There's some layers of 'duty' or 'obligation' involved, I'm realizing: In part it was originally conceived as a semi-obligation to get the kids some grandparent time, as it's been since last summer (though I genuinely do want my daughters to experience the rural natural settings I grew up in); in part it feels a semi-obligation to visit my parents (though I genuinely do want to spend time with them and in that place - in a way that feels emotionally safe for me - as they are aging and life here on earth does end); in part it feels a semi-obligation to my recovery process, spurred in part by my wife's clear sense that it is important and my tendency throughout our marriage to trust her probably more than myself (though I also feel that there may be real value in being able to at least once demonstrate to myself that I am able to be my adult self in the presence of my family).
My latest answer to the question of what I intend lies in that last parenthetical: I feel my recovery would be advanced and tested by a journey home consciously intended to be an adult visit. I think my parents have only glimpsed me as an adult, and I want them to know me, or at least see me, the 'good' and the 'bad', as I have become. It's not all bad (my self) - not even mostly bad, though the patterns I find problematic are recently especially keen, I really do feel I am a fine person - and it's not about blaming them so much as it is showing them. If I want to change anything, I'd say it's what I have trusted my parents to see about me. And what I trust me to see in myself.
When I consider the semi-obligations I realize there's no necessity for me to go. If my goal is self-protection, staying away is more safe; I can connect my kids to the natural beauty I love in plenty of other places; the weight of my wife's opinion is tempered by the multitude of other wise voices, including yours here ... and it's a relief to remember that I do have real choices.
Anyway, thanks for listening. I'm still interested in your thoughts, as this isn't the end of anything.
Oh, Kat, thanks for the post - (not a lawyer, BTW, but a planner) the suggestions for letter writing are welcome ones, and remind me that a good friend of many years reminded me of my early awakening period in early twenties, when I did express myself in some deeply felt letters. I'm reminded that I've done more than I give myself credit for, in always judging myself so harshly.
And stormyautumn, I'm very curious to hear more of your experience if you're willing to share - your dad moving out of parents' bedroom and its effects. In our case, we are committed to parenting well and have always felt that our health is fundamental to that. At this time, our having separate spaces feels important, to defuse the tension that has built up and to give us each space to reclaim the separateness which can get crowded out in a modern two professional two kid family. Being honest with the kids is important to us, as we don't want them to be confused or fearful (to the extent they need to know, i.e., mommy and daddy need alone time to take care of selves is something they've long heard and this is an extension of that). I do have some concerns about ensuring that they too have needs for solitude and private space, so we'll have to pay attention to that, but for now this seems the best option given we have 3 bedrooms and four persons. So I'd love to hear yours or others experiences with the dad-mom separate bedrooms thing.
Long post, thanks again for listening. God bless.
My latest answer to the question of what I intend lies in that last parenthetical: I feel my recovery would be advanced and tested by a journey home consciously intended to be an adult visit. I think my parents have only glimpsed me as an adult, and I want them to know me, or at least see me, the 'good' and the 'bad', as I have become. It's not all bad (my self) - not even mostly bad, though the patterns I find problematic are recently especially keen, I really do feel I am a fine person - and it's not about blaming them so much as it is showing them. If I want to change anything, I'd say it's what I have trusted my parents to see about me. And what I trust me to see in myself.
When I consider the semi-obligations I realize there's no necessity for me to go. If my goal is self-protection, staying away is more safe; I can connect my kids to the natural beauty I love in plenty of other places; the weight of my wife's opinion is tempered by the multitude of other wise voices, including yours here ... and it's a relief to remember that I do have real choices.
Anyway, thanks for listening. I'm still interested in your thoughts, as this isn't the end of anything.
Oh, Kat, thanks for the post - (not a lawyer, BTW, but a planner) the suggestions for letter writing are welcome ones, and remind me that a good friend of many years reminded me of my early awakening period in early twenties, when I did express myself in some deeply felt letters. I'm reminded that I've done more than I give myself credit for, in always judging myself so harshly.
And stormyautumn, I'm very curious to hear more of your experience if you're willing to share - your dad moving out of parents' bedroom and its effects. In our case, we are committed to parenting well and have always felt that our health is fundamental to that. At this time, our having separate spaces feels important, to defuse the tension that has built up and to give us each space to reclaim the separateness which can get crowded out in a modern two professional two kid family. Being honest with the kids is important to us, as we don't want them to be confused or fearful (to the extent they need to know, i.e., mommy and daddy need alone time to take care of selves is something they've long heard and this is an extension of that). I do have some concerns about ensuring that they too have needs for solitude and private space, so we'll have to pay attention to that, but for now this seems the best option given we have 3 bedrooms and four persons. So I'd love to hear yours or others experiences with the dad-mom separate bedrooms thing.
Long post, thanks again for listening. God bless.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Greenville Kentucky
Posts: 44
Tassle-
BTW, you've put so much effort itno your plans for your actions and I was curious about something....
Could you update me on any plans you've made for your children? What steps you're going to take to make sure they understand, on their level, what is going on in "their" environment? How you plan to address their concerns and questions about the situation.
I applaude your wife, she must be a very strong and loving person. You've painted her as being selfless, an admirable trait to say the least in this day and age.
I'm all in support of couples in a marriage who are willing to work on themselves as well as the relationship. If more people did that today, the divorce rate would drop and children wouldn't be roaming the streets in dire need of love, affection and guidance.
Once again, the best of luck on your journey.....
Oh, one more thing. Have you started your letter yet?
God Bless.
Kat-
BTW, you've put so much effort itno your plans for your actions and I was curious about something....
Could you update me on any plans you've made for your children? What steps you're going to take to make sure they understand, on their level, what is going on in "their" environment? How you plan to address their concerns and questions about the situation.
I applaude your wife, she must be a very strong and loving person. You've painted her as being selfless, an admirable trait to say the least in this day and age.
I'm all in support of couples in a marriage who are willing to work on themselves as well as the relationship. If more people did that today, the divorce rate would drop and children wouldn't be roaming the streets in dire need of love, affection and guidance.
Once again, the best of luck on your journey.....
Oh, one more thing. Have you started your letter yet?
God Bless.
Kat-
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2
hi tassle...i do agree with JT and JG here...i think nocellphone said it best - it's not your job to break through someone else's denial...the only thing such an intervention would achieve is to perpetuate the cycle of blame and shame...
on the question of distance, i cut myself off from A father and Co-De family members as a teenager...it was the only way i could begin to function 'normally'...it took a good few years before i hit rock bottom and found the path of recovery...after 10 years without any contact at all my father died...i found out after the funeral had taken place...several months later i felt strong enough and recovered enough to contact my family...i thought that with the new tools i had found for communicating, i could begin to express my perceptions of my childhood and the family dynamics, in a way that they would understand and appreciate...what was most important to me was that they accepted that i was now an adult and treated me accordingly...
alas, this was not the case...at every attempt i met with denial and a refusal to acknowledge and validate my feelings...i realised that all they wanted to do was to maintain the status quo and to hide behind the coping mechanism of denial...it was at this point i found acoa...
my family told me i had "broken my father's heart" by cutting myself off...i was only able to respond that he had broken mine as a child, by choosing the drink over the welfare of his children...with the help of acoa, and some amazing friends, i worked through the feelings of guilt this brought on, and through the feelings of shame and anger i had felt towards my father for most of my life...i was finally able to forgive him, and to forgive myself for leaving him when he was old and weak...
tassle, i hope you can achieve this while your father is still alive...this is the only way to move on and to find peace within yourself...take responsibility for your own recovery without resorting to blame, and find forgiveness in your heart...good luck...
on the question of distance, i cut myself off from A father and Co-De family members as a teenager...it was the only way i could begin to function 'normally'...it took a good few years before i hit rock bottom and found the path of recovery...after 10 years without any contact at all my father died...i found out after the funeral had taken place...several months later i felt strong enough and recovered enough to contact my family...i thought that with the new tools i had found for communicating, i could begin to express my perceptions of my childhood and the family dynamics, in a way that they would understand and appreciate...what was most important to me was that they accepted that i was now an adult and treated me accordingly...
alas, this was not the case...at every attempt i met with denial and a refusal to acknowledge and validate my feelings...i realised that all they wanted to do was to maintain the status quo and to hide behind the coping mechanism of denial...it was at this point i found acoa...
my family told me i had "broken my father's heart" by cutting myself off...i was only able to respond that he had broken mine as a child, by choosing the drink over the welfare of his children...with the help of acoa, and some amazing friends, i worked through the feelings of guilt this brought on, and through the feelings of shame and anger i had felt towards my father for most of my life...i was finally able to forgive him, and to forgive myself for leaving him when he was old and weak...
tassle, i hope you can achieve this while your father is still alive...this is the only way to move on and to find peace within yourself...take responsibility for your own recovery without resorting to blame, and find forgiveness in your heart...good luck...
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