equus

D has said he will go with me to see the addiction counsellor re his drinking and how I feel about it.

First of all this IS for me, I want a third party around while we talk about it. D feels that my worry cancels out how far he's come over the years, he's said it makes him feel as though he has no right to acknowledge it as any kind of success. I don't feel that - whatever my worries are his progress is evident in his life and he has every right to own that as his success. That is the first thing I want input from a third person on, that concern doesn't invalidate success already achieved.

Secondly I want us to deepen the way we understand how each other feel about drinking, I want our communication over it to be as good as it can get. I think on both sides there are barriers to that which an addiction counsellor could help with.

From my side I want the empathy but I'm sure that I'm still a long way off the level of understandin I need to keep it as empathy - not sympathy or resentment. From D's side I think it would help him to hear from a third person that his drinking will effect me, even if that's just because of the past, even if it isn't because he's drunk, even if he's winning over time. It effecting me DOESN'T mean that I don't see his efforts. The addiction counsellor I saw understood utterly where my concerns came from but she kept them in balance to the effort and progress he has shown. I think she'd be a fantastic person to help present that to D.

He is going to support me, this is about what I want because when I saw the counsellor alone I had desperately wished he had been there.

All of that said, I'm feeling nervous about setting it up.

splendra

equus-

my best wishes go with you and D...

gelfling

It is my hope that when D goes to this session for "you", that the therapist will be able to help him see the need for counselling for himself too.

I find it amazing that he'll go for you. Such a rarity. Fingers crossed.

equus

At this stage it really is for me. I know when me and D talk we are very open with each other but when it's about alcohol it often ends up with him saying he'll stop, and he does for a while but he isn't ready yet. He doesn't want a life without alcohol and on top of that he has real problems with his control over it - so the result is the same, he starts to drink again.

Through this we stay two people who do love and care about each other so the way we relate to each other matters. I need him there to raise the things he wants me to understand - and I need an addiction counsellors input on it. I'm sure part of that will be around what I haven't understood.

I'm going to wait to talk to him tonight before I book it. I want to be sure he feels totally willing in this - not pressured or emotionally blackmailed.

It is for me and I'm asking for his support with that but it does revolve around his past and his decisions too so I think he has to be at real peace with it.

GettingBy

Equus,

I complately agree with you, and what you're doing. We have an appointment with a counselor on Thursday morning, for exactly the same thing. The situation with us is slightly different though because his drinking is having more than an emotional impact on our relationship now. It's to the point where he has overdrawn our checking account and I have nothing left for groceries, etc. I'm taking the steps I need to protect myself, through putting money aside in an account he can't touch, giving him back responsibility for paying his own bills, etc. He sees all of this as me being un-loving, and I'm hoping the counselor can help him see it from my prospective (taking care of me!).

I have to very realistic with myself though. B, like D, has absolutely NO interest is getting rid of alcohol from his life. He too has made many, many promises to "control" the drinking, only to fall right back into the same old problems. Nothing has change, at all, from the day I met him. He says the same things as D, "Look at all the progress I've made! I only get blind drunk 3 days a week now!!! And I'm only driving drunk on 2 of those days?!?! Isn't that good enough for you?"

Unfortunately for me, it's not. The liabilities of those actions are too great for me. We have accumulated (through my diligence and sacrifices) a great amount of assets in the home we bought/own. I cannot risk losing that house because of his careless behavior.

So I'm taking the issue to a third independent party in hopes that he will be able help us communicate with each other (sad that I need to pay someone to get my husband to listen/talk to me). However, I accept that the counselor may or may not get through to him, and I accept that it all depends ultimately on what B wants for HIMSELF.

The reality for me is that this marriage may not go on much longer. That is the real consequence of my actions/choices. The things that are "taking care of me" may very well enrage B and he may decide he's had enough of me. I also know that I may be stuck paying the mortgage all on my own (another consequence of giving him back his responsibilities). I did tell him that if he couldn't pay his portion of the living expenses that he was going to have to move out. It made him mad, but that's a very fair and reasonable boundary... so I can't doing anything about his anger, that's his.

I don't know how D reacts to things, so I guess the whole point of my rambling was to share with you what my potential consequences are for my situation.

It's your marriage and you have every right to want to go to counseling. It's not just for YOU... it's for your marriage, don't forget that.

You'll have the strength you need, when the time is right! Don't second guess yourself. It may not come out perfect, but if it comes out... it was meant to be!

equus

I think the situations are very different. D has only been drunk 5 or 6 times in the last year, he's never excused being drunk, never driven drunk, never spent our money on drink, and only missed work (possibly) once due to drink - it might not have been the drink though. My concerns are there because years ago he was physically addicted and drunk 24/7 and each new 'thing' he uses to try and control it fails. In fairness to him he comes up with a new method as soon as the old one gives out but while all this happens I do feel things, I do worry and I've had to work hard to keep my feet emotionally on the ground.

I'm not doing this in response to a crisis, it's because those events years ago are very real and I think it's healthier to acknowledge them TOGETHER with acknowledging his success in getting HIMSELF this far.

The catalyst for this is us wanting to give up smoking, as part of that I've said I want to get myself on the best possible footing, part of that is my dealing better with him drinking, that it's his decision etc. That's why it's about him giving me the support through it.

Good luck with your counselling too, I absolutely believe a third ear can be worth so much.

GettingBy

You're very right... they are very different situations! I'm very happy to hear that he truly has made progress. May I asked what is was that opened his eyes to the severity of his condition?

You have been a very good wife to D. I'm very impressed with the dedication and patience that you've had with battling the disease.

equus

It got bad enough that he couldn't really miss it!! But for a long time he wanted to just let it happen. Him getting better had nothing to do with me - I'd very much let him go years earlier and we weren't in touch. He must have started to turn the corner in the years even he can't remember (3 of them!!), he must have done to have got to a point that he can remember. He has some memory, he told me there was a point where he knew he wanted to die but didn't want to give in - he just refused to kill himself despite waking up each morning wishing he had died. He also remembers an act of kindness in a railway station, he said it made some of the hurt go away.

Somehow he got far enough to work and just get blasted at night, it stayed that way for years too. Then his grandfather got sick so he went home. He spent the day talking to his Grandad and he says that the old boy told him a few home truths, one of which was to find me again. His grandad died the night after that chat and D believes he had held on to say his piece - since then the fight has been more open.

GettingBy

*Big sigh* It's so true that NOTHING we say or do can get them there. It HAS to come from within them. It's incredible to hear about the conversation he had with his granddad. You never know what it is that's going to make it "click" for them, especially because it's so different for everyone.

My BIL and sister are in the midst of their own battle with the disease. For my BIL, it was waking up one morning in a pool of his own vomit and seeing that his 7-month old son had crawled through it and was covered in it. My sister was at work and he was suppose to be babysitting... it was very hard from him to see that he was doing that to his son. It's pretty hard for him to even talk to me about our situation. He takes it very personally.

Everyone's different... but the symptoms are all too familiar.

With all the strength you've had up until now, I have no doubts you'll do the right thing with the counselor! I have ALOT of faith in you!

equus

Perhaps misplaced!!

I wondered about starting a new thread with this because I think I need help. I didn't book the appointment last night, I don't think I'll book it today. I thought about it lots last night, talked to D but he was more 'happy to be supportive' than actively agreeing.

I think I know what's stopping me. I know it'll be uncomfortable for him, I know I'm doing this for me, I know it was my idea, and I feel uncomfortable about it. My discomfort is coming from myself - but it's BIG.

I feel like I'm punishing him, that's what's stopping me. If he was getting blasted every night, if we were in crisis, if he was taking my money, not going to work, being rude, or even arguing with me about drinking, I would feel more justified.

As it is he hasn't drank that much but the targets he sets himself (stopping, special occassions, UK advised limit, only drinking when we go out, not drinking pints etc etc) now last for less time. Stopping lasted 3 months, special occasions 6 weeks, he stooped again for three weeks, and then started again, since then it feels like whatever he's tried has lasted days not weeks before he's come up with something new. Of course through all of this if you take the 'overall' pattern he has drunk less 'overall'. THAT coupled with his past makes me think I want an addiction counsellors input, for me, for my understanding, for us and our communication.

The thing is I'm not angry, I do get worried but I see that he does put effort in and actions are clear enough to tell me it isn't all talk. Oh CRAP!! I want to do this, I think it's right to do it - for us, BEFORE any crisis.

I feel like I'm waiting for some miracle to make me KNOW that he KNOWS it isn't a punishment. What's stopping me is that I don't have any inclination to punish him.

I'm sorry this is really hard for me, I feel like I have a huge brick wall inside my head, he's offered his support, I want it, but I can't get past feeling like I'm not justified to put him through it!!

minnie

Equus, I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with this. I'd love to be able to offer some words of wisdom, however I'm not sure I can really understand what's going on here.

You say that you want to do this for you. Can you explain what it is you'd like to achieve? Do you want a 3rd party to "translate" for you? I know that you have gone into this, however I have read and re-read it and I still don't quite get it. I know that you need to understand as much as you can about his condition, but if HE doesn't understand, and maybe doesn't want to, then it will be nigh on impossible for you to get into his head.

Can you accept his pattern of drinking? Are you looking to understand that pattern? Or are you wanting to change it?

I can't quite put my finger on what you are needing here.

Love

Minnie
xxx

equus

It might be helpful to explain that I went to see our local 'Alcohol Problem Advisory Service' on my own in Feb and it was useful to me but I'd wished D was there. Sometimes because I would have wanted him to say how HE feels about it so that the counsellor didn't just get my slant on things but also because D does listen to people, he isn't arrogant or pig headed and the counsellor had put things in a way that did validate how I feel. I can't know anything for certain that he would listen but D repeats lots of stuff back to me that people have said to him so I know he does listen most of the time, even if it takes a while to sink in.

The other thing I want for me is to have one other person in the same room to try and help get across that my worry DOESN'T mean I don't see how far he's come, that my worry doesn't de-value him.

The counsellor had been such a relief for me to talk to. D isn't the only one to get past physical addiction while still drinking, it's rare but he's FAR from alone. Can you imagine after months of 'NO CONTROL/ALWAYS PROGRESSIVE' or NOT an alcoholic how much that meant to me? To have an addiction counsellor say I wasn't bonkers?

The counsellor didn't just validate my viewpoint she also had more understanding about D's (or the version of it I could remember), and that helped me too, I think that would help even more if D was there to tell it himself.

All that said - it is alcoholism, there's still the uncertainty and the risks. In it's most simple form I want my husband there to be by my side and understand how I learn to deal with that.

equus

Sorry I forgot to answer this. For number one I'd say that his pattern of drinking doesn't disrupt our lives and I accept him with it 100%. I think mis-communication, hurt, frustration, fear often comes from a lack of understanding - so yes I'l always want to deepen how I understand anything that matters. As for changing it, I wish you lived in our house for a week!! D is constantly trying to change it - most of the above is about what happens with those changes, stopping, this, that, whatever, when it goes up he comes up with something new and it works for a while. No, I really couldn't see the point in wanting to change his pattern of drinking - but I do want our conversations about it to be solid and as good as communication gets. He will do any changing just as he has done so far.

When I last saw this counsellor she described D as having built the house but then found that the little details and decorations were harder than he thought, with less motivation because he's not living in a wreck, more time consuming and with less obvious results. He built the house and even if he is trying a new method a week to motivate himself to do the painting, he hasn't thrown the towel in or walked out the door!! (If that makes sense).

minnie

Of course you do. So why are you tiptoeing around this? If you have a problem with his alcoholism, then it's a problem. If he has agreed to go to the counselling with you, then that's a great thing. Surely, you can explain when you are with the counsellor that it isn't a punishment?

Why on earth not? He has offered his support - why can't you take that at face value?

Chill, hon.

Love

Minnie
xxx

equus

I don't know, except I know it isn't going to be easy for him and he sees it as a result of his failure.

I'm mad as hell at myself for stalling, I've picked up the phone to ring then put it down, it's ME stopping ME and I'm frustrated with myself. I am tiptoeing round it and I don't know why because that isn't like me.

minnie

Hon, how he views his alcoholism is his to deal with. It might not be easy for him, but just perhaps this might be a breakthrough in the way he views what he has been through. If this is important to you, then I would have thought it would be important to him too. If you always shield him from painful or difficult things, then he has no chance to learn and grow.

Just do it. You'll be fine. What's the worst that could happen?

Love

Minnie
xxx

equus

Oh CRAP!! Not only am I frightened of something - but I can't answer that question, I don't know what I'm frightened of!! This is not good.

Something is stopping me, and okay I admit I don't really know what that is. I've re-read this thread over and over and I can't figure it out. But I still feel wrong.

Does this make sense as a plan of action?
1. Stop any tiptoeing - tell D that I've gone over and over my reasoning for wanting this and it still makes sense to me but that I'm scared of something and can't figure out what.
2. Tell him I know I'm worried that it'll be hard for him but that I also know he has offered so I should be letting it go at that and leaving the rest to him.
3. Tell him that right now the biggest support I need in doing this is to get past what's stopping me from making the call. I think the session itself will be easy for me, I know who we're seeing and I feel confident about it (so why the worry? - DOH!!). This part isn't easy though.

Maybe this is part of what we need to talk about when we get to a session. The extremeness of how sick he got years ago has left alot of fear in me and as we all know fear isn't always rational. I physically remember him being so thin and sometimes I have to put my hand on his now normal belly to make it go away. He swayed once on a moving bus and I felt sick and cold because I hadn't seen him swaying for years, I felt the physical feelings I would associate with seeing someone nearly hit by a car.

When he first came back last year I wanted to make sure I could remember his face with my eyes shut because for all those years I could never get a complete picture in my head of his face. I would look at him then close my eyes but I couldn't ever get the picture clear enough. I wanted to learn because I wished I had and thought I have to do it now I have a second chance. I don't do that anymore thankfully, it really upset me and the more I tried the more I couldn't do it.

None of this has anything to do with seeing a counsellor but I wonder whether chunks of odd, irrational fear are what's really stopping me?

Thanks Minnie - sometimes I need to know the questions I can't answer more than the ones I can.

minnie

Oh, I'm glad that you know you don't know the answers - I thought I was going mad when I couldn't put my finger on what was really going on. Not knowing is OK - there are lots of things I don't know or understand which used to drive me potty. Now I have accepted that there are some things I can't know, or that things will be revealed in time. How's about just telling him that you'd like to take him up on his offer of support, make the appointment and take it from there?

Are you scared that this might send him over the edge?

Cap3

Hey equus,you say that this is for "You".And most, posts you talk about "him".I wish he was there.I want.I want.I want us.He.He feels thinks.And what does he want?Went to alcohol problem advisory service....wished "he"was there.Even the counsellor has decribed D...
Extremeness of how sick he got years ago has left alot of fear in me...Yup can relate to this.I learned that it wasn't about him.It was my own thoughts,my own reactions to him that needed to be adressed,for my recovery,no matter what he does or dosent do.Its about my recovery.Found this in a book,this morning.See if you can relate.,or that it may be helpful.I may be off base here.The world we see that seems so insane may be the result of a belief system that isn't working.The belife system holds that the fearful past will extend into the fearful future,making the past and the future one.It is our memory of fear and pain that makes us feel so vulnerable.It is this feeling of vulnerability that makes us want to control and predict the future at all cost..Fear..The one thing that i personally have learned is that when i want to share,my feelings and or thoughts,for my recovery,that i don't use what another has said and or done.Its not about their actions.Their anything.Its about me.My thoughts.My reactions.All thats inside of me.Cause once i use well he did this and i felt that,then im putting a sort of blame onto him.If you hadn't done this,then i would not be thinking/feeling this way.Nope,this never worked for me.Maybe you haven't called because you will be talking about his past?What he said/done,that you,think,made feel made you this or that?And him listening that he may feel bad about himself?Im only guessing here.When i started to talk in termes of myself,only,was when i got to working on the real problem,which has nothing at all to do with another,in my life.
All the best of the best.
Keep on keeping on.

equus

Cap - just to let you know, I have had 6 sessions of me in counselling, my issues, my stuff, my patterns, my behaviours, my reactions, my growth, my self awareness. I think I used it to the full and I also think I will do it again at some point.

You're right that this is something different from that - all of that was about me but I also need some help in how I respond to his drinking. I know I need that help and I also know I want him with me through it, as long as he's happy to do that. Hence this time it's about addiction counselling - not in place of sorting out me but on top of it, with it.

Sometimes I think there's a need for some perspective, look where I'm posting - and I am posting about my struggle, my solutions and my hang ups. With the exception of one reply because I got asked what happened to make D turn the corner, each part of this thread has been acknowledging and working on my responses as my responsibility.

As MY struggle right now is I improve even further in MY marriage HE is going to get mentioned - that's just a fact of life.