It doesn't make sense, big penny drop!
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It doesn't make sense, big penny drop!
My mind, my own reasoning, it belonging to me, it never being given away has been my protection. Through a childhood of insanity and insane reasoning I kept my own mind. If something didn't make sense that's just what I said "It doesn't make sense." . It's held me through times I can't describe when I've been alone in my reasoning only to find out I was alone because everyone else was nuts, (extreme religion).
In my counselling session I said I was sick of people being offended because I thougt they were wrong, because I said "It doesn't make sense." My counsellor suggested saying "It doesn't make sense to me".
It set me thinking, there's something I need to change. I say "It doesn't make sense" because that's what I mean, the burden of proof is with them, they want my mind to change so it's their job to make it logical, and logic has rules. (general 'thems' - any speaker, any idea, even one I will agree with eventually)
What if I had internalised not understanding? what if each time I'd thought to myself 'I'm not getting this' rather than 'It doesn't make sense'? - I would have never kept MY sanity through childhood, none of it made sense, like reasoning with a drunk to make IT make sense is impossible. It's seems reasonable that I would have externalised the process of understanding - it's the person speaking to me that has the burden of proof, I know I'm listening but I DON'T HAVE TO understand what THEY are saying. THEY have to make sense.
Now I need to work on this, to find a more functional middle ground. I need some of that grounding that my mind is my own but I also need to begin to bring down the walls of constant proof and logical reasoning.
At the moment I don't know how far I should go with this. I just know what was functional inside such extreme circumstances isn't as functional now. It's served it's purpose, probably saved me from being sucked in by drunken reasoning too, it still serves some purpose but it needs some balance.
Right now my mind is still mine, right now I know I still feel the burden of proof to be out there with any speaker but I also feel a need to soften a bit around the edges.
In my counselling session I said I was sick of people being offended because I thougt they were wrong, because I said "It doesn't make sense." My counsellor suggested saying "It doesn't make sense to me".
It set me thinking, there's something I need to change. I say "It doesn't make sense" because that's what I mean, the burden of proof is with them, they want my mind to change so it's their job to make it logical, and logic has rules. (general 'thems' - any speaker, any idea, even one I will agree with eventually)
What if I had internalised not understanding? what if each time I'd thought to myself 'I'm not getting this' rather than 'It doesn't make sense'? - I would have never kept MY sanity through childhood, none of it made sense, like reasoning with a drunk to make IT make sense is impossible. It's seems reasonable that I would have externalised the process of understanding - it's the person speaking to me that has the burden of proof, I know I'm listening but I DON'T HAVE TO understand what THEY are saying. THEY have to make sense.
Now I need to work on this, to find a more functional middle ground. I need some of that grounding that my mind is my own but I also need to begin to bring down the walls of constant proof and logical reasoning.
At the moment I don't know how far I should go with this. I just know what was functional inside such extreme circumstances isn't as functional now. It's served it's purpose, probably saved me from being sucked in by drunken reasoning too, it still serves some purpose but it needs some balance.
Right now my mind is still mine, right now I know I still feel the burden of proof to be out there with any speaker but I also feel a need to soften a bit around the edges.
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general 'thems' - any speaker, any idea, even one I will agree with eventually
Maybe you could adopt a delaying tactic...something like, 'right now I'm not getting it, I think I need to ponder it for a while'. Then after reviewing it you can decide that it really doesn't make sense or you may see that part or all of it as "sensible".
Something along that line might give you the middle ground you seek, you wouldn't be abandoning your own thoughts...just giving them a little time to gel.
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
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((((equus)))
I have had to give up most of my childhood survival skills. They were deeply ingrained into my thought processes. Someone elses anger is what I defended myself against when I was a child and now it does not serve any purpose to fear anothers anger because I would spend way too much time trying to appease them.(mostly that means I kissed way too much a$$) Now I know that just because someone is angry it does not mean violence will follow but, if it does I still have my black belt to help me out....
There is a book by Eric Berne,MD callled: "What Do You Say After You Say Hello" that reminds me so much of you. It was on one of my required reading list in college. It is about different ego states. You may know of a book by the same author called:"I'm OK You're OK". There is an ego defence that the author refers to as the "Little Professor" that really reminds me so much of you. I too was a "little Professor" when I was a child and I sought to make others prove themselves. I taught myself to read before I went to school of course I read backwards but, my reading was still well beyound my years. I sought the religious experience because my parents did not and because I wanted to understand the real meaning of the different holidays. I disapproved of the drinking and over eating that was going on too so my way of rebelling was to become spiritual and to educate myself. Both of my parents were college graduates and they kept all of their books from college my goal was to read them all by the time I was 10 years old which I did with a dictionary by my side in case I did not understand the words. It was my way of surviving!! I know I am rambling here but, take what you can use ok?
I have had to give up most of my childhood survival skills. They were deeply ingrained into my thought processes. Someone elses anger is what I defended myself against when I was a child and now it does not serve any purpose to fear anothers anger because I would spend way too much time trying to appease them.(mostly that means I kissed way too much a$$) Now I know that just because someone is angry it does not mean violence will follow but, if it does I still have my black belt to help me out....
There is a book by Eric Berne,MD callled: "What Do You Say After You Say Hello" that reminds me so much of you. It was on one of my required reading list in college. It is about different ego states. You may know of a book by the same author called:"I'm OK You're OK". There is an ego defence that the author refers to as the "Little Professor" that really reminds me so much of you. I too was a "little Professor" when I was a child and I sought to make others prove themselves. I taught myself to read before I went to school of course I read backwards but, my reading was still well beyound my years. I sought the religious experience because my parents did not and because I wanted to understand the real meaning of the different holidays. I disapproved of the drinking and over eating that was going on too so my way of rebelling was to become spiritual and to educate myself. Both of my parents were college graduates and they kept all of their books from college my goal was to read them all by the time I was 10 years old which I did with a dictionary by my side in case I did not understand the words. It was my way of surviving!! I know I am rambling here but, take what you can use ok?
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[QUOTE=splendraSomeone elses anger is what I defended myself against when I was a child and now it does not serve any purpose to fear anothers anger because I would spend way too much time trying to appease them.(mostly that means I kissed way too much a$$) [/QUOTE]
I can really relate to that. That has been my problem for waaaayyy too long. Always trying to make everyone else happy. I'm learning it's okay to say what's on my mind.
I can really relate to that. That has been my problem for waaaayyy too long. Always trying to make everyone else happy. I'm learning it's okay to say what's on my mind.
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I taught myself to read before I went to school of course I read backwards but, my reading was still well beyound my years.
I was hopelessly curious though, I used to cut up the chicken giblets (guts and stuff) to figure out how things like the heart worked - even if I had read it in my encyclopedia, it wasn't getting believed until I saw it.
Some stuff I take now without seeing it but only if it obeys reason and logic, that's the tools I learned instead of sight (or as well as). Concepts such as id, ego and super ego, I can read till the cows come home but they are circular arguments, they are proven only by belief in them and as such don't follow reason. This is where I struggle - I have never practiced and don't really know how to think or put that a different way. I could say I don't understand them but I wouldn't mean it - what I mean is that I've read them and come to understand why I can't accept them as logical, I could argue my case which is DIFFERENT from just not understanding.
I don't know how it's done, I don't know how people just 'believe'.
Edit = I know how bad this sounds - that's the problem. I do change my views and I like finding when I'm wrong 'cos it means I've learned something. I just have never believed the teacher because they were the teacher, or someone older because they were older (I knew old people disagreed on things - so how could age alone make you right or wrong?). It gets me into trouble and it's always misunderstood, disagreeing doesn't mean I think someone is stupid, they could be Stephen Hawkins and I'd still say if I thought they were wrong.
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
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What you may not be realizing is that the logic you speak of is your logic not necessarly pure logic or, logic the way others see logic. I know for myself if it does not fit how I think that it is possible that I may think it illogical....
Terms such as id and ego help me to reach out to others and help them. I hope your logic does not keep you boxed in.
Terms such as id and ego help me to reach out to others and help them. I hope your logic does not keep you boxed in.
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Join Date: May 2004
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If we set aside proven scientific fact, I believe that there is no reality, only how we see the world based on our own experience. If I believe something to be true, based on my reality, I don't feel that I have any duty to explain this and defend my beliefs. I am all for discussion, however I think I would quickly get tired of having to explain myself on a continual basis. I understand what you say about the onus being on the person doing the explaining - I used to believe that if someone didn't understand what I was saying it was my job to put it accross in a manner that they DID understand. However, I have come to realise that some people (myself included) have mental blocks about certain issues and it is nigh on impossible for another person to break through those.
What worked for me in my childhood no longer works for me as an adult, despite my best efforts of hanging onto my old behaviours. I am learning to share my experience without being proscriptive (so bear with me whilst I am going through that process!). Maybe it's ok just to absorb other people's views and test them yourself, rather than expecting them to justify their point of view.
Or have I totally misunderstood what you are saying?!
Love
Minnie
xxx
What worked for me in my childhood no longer works for me as an adult, despite my best efforts of hanging onto my old behaviours. I am learning to share my experience without being proscriptive (so bear with me whilst I am going through that process!). Maybe it's ok just to absorb other people's views and test them yourself, rather than expecting them to justify their point of view.
Or have I totally misunderstood what you are saying?!
Love
Minnie
xxx
Searching and tripping
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Believe it or not..."Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." Step 4. You did it and didn't even know it. This is one of the things I tell people. It isn't just all about alcoholism. The 12 Steps. It's about our personal shortcomings involving our lives in general and things surrounding us. Dare I use the phrase "psychology"?
I feel that if people were to take away the AA/alanon 12 Steps and rename them "12 steps of life", more people would be prone to give them a try. What do you think?
And it also touched off a reminder that I'm supposed to be working on my 4th step. Put it off for months. I've had too many signs coming at me to not do it. The time is right.
I feel that if people were to take away the AA/alanon 12 Steps and rename them "12 steps of life", more people would be prone to give them a try. What do you think?
And it also touched off a reminder that I'm supposed to be working on my 4th step. Put it off for months. I've had too many signs coming at me to not do it. The time is right.
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Letting go is half the fun. I am a more logical thinker anyway so I analyze what's been said before I form an opinion. I would say that people having to prove everything stems from childhood because accepting some things at face value enables a person to accept a compliment (for example) and enjoy the intimate meaning behind the statement.
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Hey Equues,great topic.
You say,what if each time i'd thought to myself,.. i'm not getting this...Rather than..,"it" doesn't make sence.I would only guess,that you'd feel like you lost control,{the illusion of control}of your inner/outer world,if you accepted that its you not understanding,and has nothing to do with another.I know for sure there will be a host of folks that just don't understand me.Its a given.,in life.I choose whether to explain myself,to another.Sometimes i do,and sometimes,i don't.Ive been with folks,that continue to say to me,i don't understand.And i use to explain,and,explain,and they still didnt get it.Only to find that this was their method,of control.Im not saying this is you,for i don't know you,Equues.Im talking about others,who have done this to me.its like they think i need their approval,too..Please explain Cap until i undertstand,then move forward,,lol..,,type of thing..But its ok that they don't understand me..See i personally don't understand how others can use any logic,when it comes to humans.I mean this sincerely.Humans logical???Folks will say and do the strangest things.Makes sence to them.And i don't have to understand.Just ramain open,to learning about all kinds of folks...The folks that can say i don't understand you,have a better understanding,between themselves,than the folks that say i don't understand you,please explain until i do...
You say,what if each time i'd thought to myself,.. i'm not getting this...Rather than..,"it" doesn't make sence.I would only guess,that you'd feel like you lost control,{the illusion of control}of your inner/outer world,if you accepted that its you not understanding,and has nothing to do with another.I know for sure there will be a host of folks that just don't understand me.Its a given.,in life.I choose whether to explain myself,to another.Sometimes i do,and sometimes,i don't.Ive been with folks,that continue to say to me,i don't understand.And i use to explain,and,explain,and they still didnt get it.Only to find that this was their method,of control.Im not saying this is you,for i don't know you,Equues.Im talking about others,who have done this to me.its like they think i need their approval,too..Please explain Cap until i undertstand,then move forward,,lol..,,type of thing..But its ok that they don't understand me..See i personally don't understand how others can use any logic,when it comes to humans.I mean this sincerely.Humans logical???Folks will say and do the strangest things.Makes sence to them.And i don't have to understand.Just ramain open,to learning about all kinds of folks...The folks that can say i don't understand you,have a better understanding,between themselves,than the folks that say i don't understand you,please explain until i do...
Last edited by Cap3; 04-10-2005 at 05:49 AM. Reason: adding.
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This is an issue of morals for me -it isn't okay to live in a way that results in other people feeling unvalued. At the same time I seriously don't know how to still mean what I say and avoid it.
The hardest things are where you see a clear error in thinking - I don't mean something subjective here. The conclusion may or may not be correct but the thinking that leads to it can be objectively flawed.
For example if 'all people have square feet' and therefore someone concludes that because 'it' has square feet is must be a person - the reasoning is flawed. 'It' may or may not be a person - square feet only determine that 'it' is a person if ONLY people have square feet, NOT because all people have square feet.
So here I would come along and say - "You can't say it's a person JUST because 'it' has square feet'. The person I'm talking to then tells me all their experience with square footed people, how they know people have square feet and how I should realise my mistake. I STILL carry on trying to explain 'it' could be a person, they could be right but I am not persauded on the basis of square feet alone. Net result the other person feels as though A) I can't cope thinking it could be a person (in reality it's the reasoning not the classification I disagree with - I don't know if 'it' is a person), B) I don't believe them about the square footed people they've seen, or C) I''m an idiot that never noticed people have square feet, or I'm so arrogant I think I've found a whole new human foot shape.
There are social rules as to when you should be convinced, or act convinced as with teachers etc. There are social rules that dictate you shouldn't challenge someone on their 'expert' subject, or they feel under valued, there are rules which dictate you don't challenge the books that people use to define their beliefs, there are rules that say you don't challenge if you're a female or a kid. I don't mind someone else breaking ALL these rules, kids have challenged me well and badly, they have been right and wrong. When I use to teach grooms to ride the first thing I told them to do was challenge because I can easily be wrong. I don't understand the sensibilities that define our social rules with this but I acknowledge I have to change something to stop making other people feel put down.
The hardest things are where you see a clear error in thinking - I don't mean something subjective here. The conclusion may or may not be correct but the thinking that leads to it can be objectively flawed.
For example if 'all people have square feet' and therefore someone concludes that because 'it' has square feet is must be a person - the reasoning is flawed. 'It' may or may not be a person - square feet only determine that 'it' is a person if ONLY people have square feet, NOT because all people have square feet.
So here I would come along and say - "You can't say it's a person JUST because 'it' has square feet'. The person I'm talking to then tells me all their experience with square footed people, how they know people have square feet and how I should realise my mistake. I STILL carry on trying to explain 'it' could be a person, they could be right but I am not persauded on the basis of square feet alone. Net result the other person feels as though A) I can't cope thinking it could be a person (in reality it's the reasoning not the classification I disagree with - I don't know if 'it' is a person), B) I don't believe them about the square footed people they've seen, or C) I''m an idiot that never noticed people have square feet, or I'm so arrogant I think I've found a whole new human foot shape.
There are social rules as to when you should be convinced, or act convinced as with teachers etc. There are social rules that dictate you shouldn't challenge someone on their 'expert' subject, or they feel under valued, there are rules which dictate you don't challenge the books that people use to define their beliefs, there are rules that say you don't challenge if you're a female or a kid. I don't mind someone else breaking ALL these rules, kids have challenged me well and badly, they have been right and wrong. When I use to teach grooms to ride the first thing I told them to do was challenge because I can easily be wrong. I don't understand the sensibilities that define our social rules with this but I acknowledge I have to change something to stop making other people feel put down.
Last edited by equus; 04-10-2005 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Sent too soon
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it may be that "seeing things in black and white" thing. have you've heard that physicists believe there may be something like 20-some different levels of parallel reality? THERE'S something to think about!
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
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equus-
All people who are awake and not in a coma have conscienceness and egos. Your ego is what tells you that others have to prove their ideas to you. Your ego tells you many things. All of us here have them. Some people have small egos and victum conscieness and others are grandious. I think you have a big wall up and one day it will crumble and you will be amazed at what you have been over looking all these years. I think you put a lot of effort into proving others wrong so that you can see yourself as right. What a waste of energy this is. I think you believed that your parents were wrong and you had to hold up a wall for protection(or you thought you did) that is understandable but.....girl somethings are not logical and they do not fit into a little girls logic box who is trying to protect herself from religious fanatics. I am glad to see that you are getting uncomfortable living inside this box....
All people who are awake and not in a coma have conscienceness and egos. Your ego is what tells you that others have to prove their ideas to you. Your ego tells you many things. All of us here have them. Some people have small egos and victum conscieness and others are grandious. I think you have a big wall up and one day it will crumble and you will be amazed at what you have been over looking all these years. I think you put a lot of effort into proving others wrong so that you can see yourself as right. What a waste of energy this is. I think you believed that your parents were wrong and you had to hold up a wall for protection(or you thought you did) that is understandable but.....girl somethings are not logical and they do not fit into a little girls logic box who is trying to protect herself from religious fanatics. I am glad to see that you are getting uncomfortable living inside this box....
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What a waste of energy this is. I think you believed that your parents were wrong and you had to hold up a wall for protection(or you thought you did) that is understandable but.....girl somethings are not logical and they do not fit into a little girls logic box who is trying to protect herself from religious fanatics.
I'm sure you'll busy yourself analysing this with boundless confidence. I hope it proves productive for you. I'm not willing to continue to watch your amateur analysis based on forum posts. I share personal things here and feel it's better to use the forums functions as they are designed to be used than enter into another longwinded debate with someone who seems so utterly convinced by their own conclusions.
No-one else on this forum, or any other, has ever responded to me in way I have found so negative and unhelpful. No doubt you feel that proves your point and of that I'm glad because I don't think you can cope with anything that doesn't.
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
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equus
I am soooooooooooooooooo sorry if you believe I am trying to insult you because that is not what is in my heart at all....
I did not say you are a little girl but, using defences from when you were a little girl. Sorry if you could not get that out of what I was saying to you....
I am soooooooooooooooooo sorry if you believe I am trying to insult you because that is not what is in my heart at all....
I did not say you are a little girl but, using defences from when you were a little girl. Sorry if you could not get that out of what I was saying to you....
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