JessicaNAJ

I called another attorney today (to see if she was a little cheaper-and she was). I asked her questions about going through with a divorce. We talked for about 10 minutes. The longer I was on the phone with her, the more I started feeling bad - FOR HIM!!! Darn it!!

Okay - I'm almost there, but not quite yet. I'm going to my counselor Wednesday, hopefully she can give me insight to help. (If I was my friend, I'd tell me to get a clue and just do it, but its not that easy.)

My kids will not be a lone with him again. I don't trust him at all. That should be enough fuel to go through with this, but this d@mn guilt of taking his kids away from him and remembering what pain my mom went through when my dad left her keep coming back to haunt me.

My sister is looking into what I need to do to get temporary custody / just in case he gets a hair and wants to take off with my kids (i worry too much).

One day at a time!! My HP will guide me through.

cwohio

aww jessica - don't look back on the past - this is an entirely different situation. you want to stop the vicious cycle and you have come a long way. prayers to you and good luck at the counselor tomorrow!

JennyK

Yes, yes...it will not all come at once. Recovery is a process. And if you addiction to him is like any other addiction it will take time. You are doing GREAT!!! Really...really...great.

Do what you need to do to protect your children and keep yourself healthy. And GOOD FOR YOU for calling another lawyer. You are on the right path.

Many hugs.

Jenny

minnie

Jess, please stop this. You are not taking his kids away. He knows what he has to do to be with his kids. But he is chosing not to get help.

You are protecting your kids, like any good mother.

Take care

Love

Minnie
xxx

cupowater

No, you DON'T worry too much! Never put your guard down. Protect yourself and your kids!

JessicaNAJ

I know this, i really do. Just like I know that I'm not throwing our marriage away, he is. It's because of his irresponsible behavior and total lack of respect for anyone that I'm doing this. It would be different if he was able to admit he had a problem and seek help, but he's not. Instead, I'm getting verbally attacked when I say something out of line, my kids are being neglected by him, he will only help out when it is convenient for him, I can't depend on him and I can't trust him.

I have to find out where this guilt is coming from.

minnie

Jess

I felt the same guilt when I split up with my fiancé in December. It felt like I had put so much effort in already and I was asking myself why I was I throwing it all away now. But I wasn't throwing anything away - I was simply deciding how I wanted to lead my life. At first it felt like I was running away from him, but now I see it as running towards my new life.

I have just picked up "Language of Letting Go" to find a reading for you. Would you believe that today's is "Letting Go of Guilt"?

"Feeling good about ourselves is a choice. So is feeling guilty. When guilt is legitimate, it acts as a warning light, signalling that we're off course. Then its purpose is finished.

Wallowing in guilt allows others to control us. It makes us feel not good enough. It prevents us from setting boundaries and taking other healthy action to care for ourselves.

We may have learned to habitually feel guilty as an instinctive reaction to life. Now we know that we don't have to feel guilty. Even if we have done something that violates a value, extended guilt does not solve the problem; it prolongs the problem. So make an amend. Change a behaviour. Then let the guilt go.

Today, God help me to become entirely ready to let go of guilt. Please take it from me and replace it with self-love"

JessicaNAJ

Something just hit me -

If I am having a conversation with AH and showing concern or expressing my feelings and he gets snappy or defensive or whatever, I begin to think it was something I had said or done to cause that. I, inturn, put the blame on myself by saying - "I'm sorry, I'm freaking out."

Well, I'm not freaking out. Expressing my feelings and wanting to be heard is not freaking out. I shouldn't accept the blame b/c he can't handle the truth about how I feel.

This behavior seems to follow me with anyone I am close too, whether it be a friend or a family member. Knowledge is power. And I'm glad I figured this out.

(Had to share that "brain storm" with you)

queenofthehwy

Like an epiphany I really have no idea how to spell, I just like that word.

Jessica you completly nailed it!! I do the same thing and you're right we are NOT freaking out at all, no matter how much they want us to think we are.


Mindi

minnie

Don't foget, guys, if out motives are honourable, another person's reactions are not ours to own.

GettingFree

Hi Jessica,
I know exactly what you're talking about. Learning to establish healthy boundaries has been difficult for me, learning to understand that I am not responsible for the reactions of others when I believe I have acted in an entirely reasonable way.


I came to find it's hardly limited to family, friends or primary relationships. It can touch every interaction, as it has me in the workplace too. I've worked in a particularly demanding and driven culture, where there's a value placed on putting in ridiculous hours. Not until having done a whole lot of recovery on my codependence did I start to see the insanity in this. The insanity of feeling guilty if I worked just an 8 or 9 hour day!

For me, I discovered that athe guilt goes back a long way, as I think it does for a lot of us. Having grown up in an environment that was emotionally bereft and punitive, and where the adults held the children responsible for their own negative feelings and disfunction, I learned to feel responsible and guilty early.

My parents' inability to be there for their children meant having neeeds was wrong. Feeling feelings was wrong. So I learned that having needs and feelings was something to feel bad about.

Someone's mad, I must have done something wrong. Someone's upset, I'm accused of causing it. I learned early on to feel over-responsible. I learned to apologize for my behaviour quickly, hoping that would make everything okay. I compensated by trying to be perfect and excel, hoping that would make everything okay. And when it didn't, I felt like I had done something wrong.

I think these feelings we have as adults are rooted in very early learning. And now it takes a whole lot of hard work to unlearn. But it's worth it.

I've changed jobs, work in an environment that's a little less driven, and I don't feel guilty at 5:00 after a good day's work, and I head home. (And that's just the tip of the iceberg!)

best,
gf
gf

JessicaNAJ

Which is exactly why, when it comes to my AH - from here on out....All my action will be honorable.

I have been a little rough towards him since he moved out. Before he moved out there was always too much tension.

JessicaNAJ

My life, as long as I can remember, has been demanding.

GettingFree

Hey Jess,

I didn't mean to diminish. I simply wanted to give a neutral kind of example without getting into a long explanation of other personal situations. Of which there are many. I have lived a demanding life in every way as well.

gf

JessicaNAJ

I didn't take it that way. I was just commenting that for me, it seems life has always been demanding / I always felt I had to prove I was capable of succeeding when everyone else thought I'd fail. Maybe that is why I'm so hard on myself. And maybe that too has added to my co-dependency. I know part of it started with my mom, but that could have also added to it. Who knows..lol I know now that I have to focus on me and impressing myself. I don't have to prove anything to anyone but me. (now, if only I could beat that into my brain).

jessieandme2003

Wow, I have this in my life right now and I didn't really let myself face the fact its another aspect of my codependence. I mean, I KNEW the same people-pleasing aspects of my character that lets me be a doormat in relationships also makes me a great employee to have, but I always just stopped the thought at that. I never let myself face it as another part of my recovery I should work on.

Thanks.

wraybear

What a great thread! I read a book titled "Boundaries" with a group from my church last year. It was awesome. I too, have felt endless guilt. Guilt for not working more, even though I work 45-50 hours a week usually. I now leave work feeling good that I put in a good days work and this project will ahve to wait. I also have learned to tell people at work "no" which has been very hard since I am the one who would do anything to help anybody. I would always go the extra mile - probably to get some kind of self- gratification, then when I realized I can't do it all, and THAT's OKAY, life has become much more manageable.

I also read a book about "shame" - I can't remember the title, but it really helped me realize some of this guilt was actually shame. And shame can be caused from very early on... here is an example... "mommy, i am scared" and i tell my kids there is nothing to be scared of and go back to bed. Well, i am not validating there feeling of being scared and basically telling them they shouldn't FEEL that way. I should go to their room, "honey i am sorry you are scared, what are you scared of?" and then look under the bed and say "nothing here" look in the closet "nothing here either". Or, "mommy, i feel like no body likes me" oh, honey, everybody likes you and I love you. Well, again, i didn't validate her FEELING. I kinda blew it off. So, I am so old, i don't remember these things happening to me, but, I am really working on validating my kiddos feelings now. So, hopefully they won't grow up with as much guilt and shame as i have.

In a nutshell, the song, FEELINGS, NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS, is hogwash! We need to embrace our feelings and teach our kiddos to do the same.

I know I got off track here, but that's me!

JessicaNAJ

I'm glad you got off track. You made some good points about validating feelings.

I'm scared to death that I'm going to pass some of my code traits on to my kids.

I do the same thing with my kids / because that's what I learned as a kid. WOW - I never thought about it that way. My son comes to me and say's he's scared and I tell him he's being silly, there is nothing to be scared of (EXACTLY).

My three year old asks WHY all the time. It really gets to be annoying. But, you know, WHY is a good question to ask. I should start asking it more.

I'm glad you brought this up. I wish you could remember the name of that book

cwohio

jess now if you will beat me with that same stick maybe we will both "get" it!

i sure am glad you posted cuz this is a very informative thread! wray - thanks for sharing that wonderful piece about shame and how we all may have been programmed at an early level.

this is awesome!

GettingFree

Wraybear,

I am so glad you brought up the idea of invalidation. It is rampant in our interactions, everywhere. and as you said, we learn it very early on. When I first encountered this notion, and began to observe myself as well as others, I was astounded at how insidious and prevalent it is. It creeps in to our interactions all over the place -- just as in the seemingly innocent example you gave about a child saying they were scared.

This is one of my problems with some of the doctrine of the 12 steps that was developed before we evolved these notions about shame and invalidating feelings.

When people struggle with feelings of stored anger and resentment or built-up hurt, a common approach is to counsel them "to not dwell in the past", to 'let it go", and countless variations on that theme. It's really not very different than telling a child who feels fear that there's nothing to be afraid of. Telling an adult who has a lot of stored emotion to simply let it go is invalidating what most likely is very valid pain and anger.

But what we hear a lot is, "Sorry you feel that way, but you'll feel better if you just let it go" or "what's the point of spending time being angry at that person -- giving them rent in your head?" What we don't hear is, "It makes perfect sense that you're angry. It's entirely valid. Tell me more about it." We invalidate instead of legitimizing and offering support and empathy.

We offer quick solutions too -- which can be very invalidating as well. To use a similarly simple example, if my 16 year old daughter comes home and is distressed about having a whole whack of homework she's afraid she won't get done in time, I could say 1) "So how did this happen? Seems like you should have planned better" (shaming) 2) "Well, tonight just don't talk on the phone or watch any tv, just get down to it, and you can it done" (offering quick solutions without acknowleding her feelings so she feels wrong for having them, she feels she should just be able to work it out) or 3) "Hey honey, it seems like you feel really overwhelmed and afraid. That's really rough. I remember sometimes when I'd feel like that with homework too."

I may indeed have some practical ideas I could share with her, but when people are in the middle of feelings, they're not necessarily ready to hear practical solutions. After supporting the feelings, allowing them to be and to pass, then maybe we could talk practicalities. "Would you like some help figuring this out?"

I don't believe one can can truly 'recover' in the sense of healing a whole human being if you push down difficult feelings. They have to come out. That's not to say we want to express our resentment or anger without restraint. Part of our recovery process is becoming responsible for our feelings and that includes dealing with them appropriately, processing them, perhaps with support, without getting them all over others. It's the idea of avoiding 'right rage, wrong person' but not avoiding the anger itself.

Like you say, they're feelings and we need to embrace them. I think it's a paradox: feeling 'bad' feelings like fear, anger, shame, rage, and grief is the very thing we need to do to release them, and become free of them. When we try and wish them away, they often hang around like an unwelcome house guest you just can't get rid of, continuing to impact signficantly our state of mind and behavior.

thanks for bringing up this idea. I think your example of a child's fear makes it so clear.

best
gf