?? on Culture Differences in Drinking Attitudes??
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 138
?? on Culture Differences in Drinking Attitudes??
Living here in United Kingdom there is a new introduction of extended pub opening hours.
http://uk.news.*****.com/050124/344/fawov.html
Discussions are going on this. Legal drinking age is 18 here.
The laws and culture on drinking are so different. But as a American friend who lives here says.." The relationship people have to drink. I enjoy a drink, but -- maybe this is just my residual American puritan streak that I've exorcised in other areas -- I find the way many people treat alcohol in this country(UK) to be fairly disturbing. I know, I know, I know, it's a cultural difference, it's just different here, etc., but I can't help but feel that I see a lot more unhealthy alcohol use here than I even did at university (at UCLA and my fellow yanks will know that unhealthy drinking can be taken an a minor there!)".
So to you that have been to Europe and other countries a question? Is the culture differences on drinking(all kinds of alcohol,wines,etc.) so different?
http://uk.news.*****.com/050124/344/fawov.html
Discussions are going on this. Legal drinking age is 18 here.
The laws and culture on drinking are so different. But as a American friend who lives here says.." The relationship people have to drink. I enjoy a drink, but -- maybe this is just my residual American puritan streak that I've exorcised in other areas -- I find the way many people treat alcohol in this country(UK) to be fairly disturbing. I know, I know, I know, it's a cultural difference, it's just different here, etc., but I can't help but feel that I see a lot more unhealthy alcohol use here than I even did at university (at UCLA and my fellow yanks will know that unhealthy drinking can be taken an a minor there!)".
So to you that have been to Europe and other countries a question? Is the culture differences on drinking(all kinds of alcohol,wines,etc.) so different?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: over the rainbow
Posts: 487
my family lived in germany for a few years and they said even the kindergartens had alcoholic beverages. i wondered if it was the europeans just had evolved with a greater tolerance to it.
i'll tell you though my father and brother became rabid alcoholics living there the few years they were there.
i'll tell you though my father and brother became rabid alcoholics living there the few years they were there.
Ugh!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Enchanted Elmoland
Posts: 180
I cannot comment on European drinking; I've never had the opportunity to go there. However; in Mexico they literally handed out free beers to tourists to get them in the stores. On the street corners there and in Jamaica, we were stopped several times and asked if we would like to purchase some weed. Also in Jamaica, for games that were played they handed out "overproof" Jamaican rum. Stuff was disgusting! I'm sure that part of this was just due to being a tourist, but I highly doubt that in all countries this is the norm. Geesh I hope not...
~Faithchaser
~Faithchaser
Binge poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 561
Beer drinking in England
My little geeky contribution:
England, for one, has a long tradition of over-indulgence in alcohol.
Ladies-in-waiting at the court of Henry VII were allowed a gallon of beer for breakfast alone, and at the end of the 17th century the weekly allowance for pupils of all ages at one English school was two bottles a day.
Benjamin Franklin, who lived in London from 1757-1774, recorded the daily beer consumption in a London printing house he visited. The employees each had a pint before breakfast, a pint between breakfast and dinner, a pint at dinner, a pint at six o'clock and a pint when they finished work.
This beer was both weaker than that we have now and most likely safer than drinking the water at the time, however the culture of constant tipsiness, and alcohol being a part of every day life, seems to have lingered on like a bad hangover.
Having visited other countries, it seems that we do have an expectation that a night out will include a substantial intake of bevvy (don't know if that's just a Scottish word) that others don't.
I'm not going to talk about Scotland and whisky as this is Burn's night and I'm having one with my haggis - so there.
Hope I didn't bore you
Jane
xxx
Ps if you're really unlucky, next time it will be a history of the coffee shop.
England, for one, has a long tradition of over-indulgence in alcohol.
Ladies-in-waiting at the court of Henry VII were allowed a gallon of beer for breakfast alone, and at the end of the 17th century the weekly allowance for pupils of all ages at one English school was two bottles a day.
Benjamin Franklin, who lived in London from 1757-1774, recorded the daily beer consumption in a London printing house he visited. The employees each had a pint before breakfast, a pint between breakfast and dinner, a pint at dinner, a pint at six o'clock and a pint when they finished work.
This beer was both weaker than that we have now and most likely safer than drinking the water at the time, however the culture of constant tipsiness, and alcohol being a part of every day life, seems to have lingered on like a bad hangover.
Having visited other countries, it seems that we do have an expectation that a night out will include a substantial intake of bevvy (don't know if that's just a Scottish word) that others don't.
I'm not going to talk about Scotland and whisky as this is Burn's night and I'm having one with my haggis - so there.
Hope I didn't bore you
Jane
xxx
Ps if you're really unlucky, next time it will be a history of the coffee shop.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
There are different drinking cultures WITHIN the Uk never mind across the water!! My hubby comes from a very Northern family where part of being male is to drink at the pub at least once or twice a week. His Mum stays home and always has. I'm also from the north and very proud of my culture, especially it's friendliness and hospitality. To overcome not having endless wine to offer with a meal I bought every flavour juice available, fizzy water, still water, ginger beer, a coffee grinder etc etc - anything to be able to offer an excess. I understand my husbands struggle with drinking a pint with his father - in serving a meal with something I know my guests want missing - I feel the same struggle.
I have friends who have never had a problem (ie - they work, function and nothing escalates), but if I wrote what they drink here most would be suggesting that they were alcoholic.
When I first came onto this site the difference in perspective scared me. I needed some balance so I rang the UK drinkline and their approach was much less - chronic - progressive - fatal - etc. However that's not to say it was taken lightly, quite the opposite.
I've no idea who's right or wrong and it feels healthy to me to get the broad range of perspective by visiting here, using info from the Uk and reading research. I can see why there would be differences even in the progression of alcoholism. The effects of expectation on motivation are huge, if you live in a country where 'problem drinking' (ie no PHYSICAL withdrawals) is seen as alcoholism, and the only way to deal with alcoholism is permanent abstension (sp?) then A) You would be more motivated to stop permanently but also B) be less likely to be motivated to cut down (hence possible faster progressive alcoholism).
In the UK there is lots of work done with moderation management - getting problem drinkers more able to see where they struggle to control their alcohol use. That said once the addiction has become physical stopping for life seems to be most effective.
As my husbands drinking had got to the point of physical addiction years ago and yet he had lessened the amount he drank over time - I felt like I must be nuts or have imagined the whole thing until I rang a UK drinkline. Our culture IS different so many young people wind up in a state during teenage years and early twenties (albeit - some worse than others). Universities are filled with kids who will get drunk EVERY night and yet the majority do seem to get to a point of leaving it behind. For those who can't leave it behind; the pressure to drink, the quantity they drank, the laid back attitude to problem drinking, the attitude of 'he'll grow out of it' ALL those things work heavily against recovery.
I think there's a real need to get a variety of perspectives but also to acknowledge that our cultures effect all of us hugely. My GUESS would be that in America the best bet is to go with the solutions that are found to work within the American culture and in the Uk to find out what works best with the UK culture.
Again - it's no more than a guess but I think I could end up having an oppsosite opinion to and American on alcoholism BUT that in reality we could BOTH be right. As we all know it's the individual alcoholic that will drive their own recovery - it has to be, but if that's the case we can't ignore that these individuals are themselves a product of their culture. I'm all for clinical trials - measure it, measure stuff here, there, different treatments, philosophies, and let's increase our over all understanding rather than arguing who's right or wrong. (I'm not suggesting people are arguing here).
(If you want any refs to stuff - let me know and I'll get them).
I have friends who have never had a problem (ie - they work, function and nothing escalates), but if I wrote what they drink here most would be suggesting that they were alcoholic.
When I first came onto this site the difference in perspective scared me. I needed some balance so I rang the UK drinkline and their approach was much less - chronic - progressive - fatal - etc. However that's not to say it was taken lightly, quite the opposite.
I've no idea who's right or wrong and it feels healthy to me to get the broad range of perspective by visiting here, using info from the Uk and reading research. I can see why there would be differences even in the progression of alcoholism. The effects of expectation on motivation are huge, if you live in a country where 'problem drinking' (ie no PHYSICAL withdrawals) is seen as alcoholism, and the only way to deal with alcoholism is permanent abstension (sp?) then A) You would be more motivated to stop permanently but also B) be less likely to be motivated to cut down (hence possible faster progressive alcoholism).
In the UK there is lots of work done with moderation management - getting problem drinkers more able to see where they struggle to control their alcohol use. That said once the addiction has become physical stopping for life seems to be most effective.
As my husbands drinking had got to the point of physical addiction years ago and yet he had lessened the amount he drank over time - I felt like I must be nuts or have imagined the whole thing until I rang a UK drinkline. Our culture IS different so many young people wind up in a state during teenage years and early twenties (albeit - some worse than others). Universities are filled with kids who will get drunk EVERY night and yet the majority do seem to get to a point of leaving it behind. For those who can't leave it behind; the pressure to drink, the quantity they drank, the laid back attitude to problem drinking, the attitude of 'he'll grow out of it' ALL those things work heavily against recovery.
I think there's a real need to get a variety of perspectives but also to acknowledge that our cultures effect all of us hugely. My GUESS would be that in America the best bet is to go with the solutions that are found to work within the American culture and in the Uk to find out what works best with the UK culture.
Again - it's no more than a guess but I think I could end up having an oppsosite opinion to and American on alcoholism BUT that in reality we could BOTH be right. As we all know it's the individual alcoholic that will drive their own recovery - it has to be, but if that's the case we can't ignore that these individuals are themselves a product of their culture. I'm all for clinical trials - measure it, measure stuff here, there, different treatments, philosophies, and let's increase our over all understanding rather than arguing who's right or wrong. (I'm not suggesting people are arguing here).
(If you want any refs to stuff - let me know and I'll get them).
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: toronto, ontario, canada
Posts: 224
I think there is no arguement that what is considered normal alcohol consumption varies greatly among different cultures. I beleive the thing that makes an alscoholis an alcoholic is not the amount or time of day or any of the drinking habits. It is the effect the alcohol has on the person that determines if the person drinks alcholically. alcohol affects alcoholics in ways it doesn't effect heavy drinkers. Alcoholics are problem drinkers whether it be a single glass or several bottles. The alcohol drastically alters our thinking and in most cases changes our personality either subtlely or blantantly we are no longer the same person. For some it makes us more talkative, others more aggressive but either way we are no longer our true self and are no longer totally in control of ourselves.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Alcoholics are problem drinkers
The reliability of the diagnosis are stronger for alcohol dependency which isn't surprising as it has a tighter criteria. It's impossible to understand what research papers are refering to without understanding that these are two different conditions. However I would agree that coloquially 'alcoholism' is used to cover both and is based on the destruction alcohol creates withing an individaul's life. I would also agree that to fullfill the criteria for alcohol dependency you would need to fill that of a problem drinker - however in research and diagnosis those with a physcal dependency are excluded from the group refered to as problem drinkers.
Does that help clarify what I meant when refering to them as two distinct groups?
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England, UK
Posts: 197
Hi Everyone
I'm not sure about this, but it's a great thread. Binge drinking is certainly a huge issue here in the UK and I'm not for extending pub opening hours. The drive here seems to be to make it more socially acceptable for folks to drink outwith "normal" hours. That's something which we alcoholics spent years developing as a major skill.LOL!!
I've been on all inclusive holidays to places like Jamaica and while indulging in alcohol, have probably never drunk in the ways I did back here. As for a bit of Jamaican weed...erm, let's just say that while enjoyable, I am a real light weight and would have no dseire to over indulge.
If people want to drink they will. Whether it's before going out for a night, during, or coming home afterwards. That's a simple fact. Extending pub opening hours will not change that.
I think that every continent has it's binge drinkers and alcoholics. When we're on holiday, we probably see a different perspective. At least in recovery, we have a choice. Should pub opening hours be extended, all people will still have a choice, but the active alcoholics will just find another justification for keeping on drinking.
Good subject.
Rich
I'm not sure about this, but it's a great thread. Binge drinking is certainly a huge issue here in the UK and I'm not for extending pub opening hours. The drive here seems to be to make it more socially acceptable for folks to drink outwith "normal" hours. That's something which we alcoholics spent years developing as a major skill.LOL!!
I've been on all inclusive holidays to places like Jamaica and while indulging in alcohol, have probably never drunk in the ways I did back here. As for a bit of Jamaican weed...erm, let's just say that while enjoyable, I am a real light weight and would have no dseire to over indulge.
If people want to drink they will. Whether it's before going out for a night, during, or coming home afterwards. That's a simple fact. Extending pub opening hours will not change that.
I think that every continent has it's binge drinkers and alcoholics. When we're on holiday, we probably see a different perspective. At least in recovery, we have a choice. Should pub opening hours be extended, all people will still have a choice, but the active alcoholics will just find another justification for keeping on drinking.
Good subject.
Rich
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: over the rainbow
Posts: 487
did anyone see the nature show where the elephants all got drunk on the rotten fruit that fell off the tree? Evidently, they do it once a year. You should've seen them rolling around, falling down,-I think i almost recognized a few. I think monkeys do it too. it seems to me the alcohol is a poison no matter where it comes from, and we just drink it in wee tiny bits. i can understand back then before anyone knew how to purify water, but it really makes me wonder how the history of mankind has been affected when people drank alcohol like it was water! maybe these days we are more advanced and enlightened?
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