Gone against my morals.
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Gone against my morals.
The title says it all, I hate manipulation but last night I was devious, untruthful, and hugely manipulative.
I don't really know how to write this without it coming out wrong. D is a great lover, he's gentle and sensitive but a bit shy, he makes up for that by being so loving. He knows I enjoy it, I'm sure he does but I always have to suggest it, and it's so obvious most of the time that he'd rather just cuddle.
Last night I suggested an early night but not just for sleep. I went up for a bath while he studied and suggested he came to scrub my back - he did come up for a book, popped in to ask if I was Ok but then went back to study.
It was already nearly midnight after I got back downstairs but he was still hard at it and showed no signs of stopping until I got sleepy then he suggested we go to bed but just cuddle. I felt disappointed - that's all. I get loads of affection from him, tons of attention and cuddles, I know it's not about him not wanting me, I didn't feel rejected just worried because it's another slap in my face sign that something is wrong. I like the times I can forget, things that seem normal - the times it's in my face make me feel daunted and sad.
I acted rejected, I said maybe it would help if I was better looking, I reminded him it's always me that asks for sex. I let him think I felt unloved because I wanted him to talk to me and tell me what was happening. How's that for manipulation? It's literally below the belt!!
Ok - I got what I wanted, he talked. He doesn't feel sexy, he feels ashamed and tired. He enjoys it once he's stirred into action but until then he just wants to sleep and feel safe. He said he hasn't had any libido for years, his last girlfriend (of 3 years) told him it was a nuisance but he didn't mind. He said he feels ugly and pathetic. I told him he's sexy to me, that's why I ask for it, I told him he's a good lover - everything I could think of (all true) but he said he doesn't feel like he's any of that but that he'll try and get some earlier nights and maybe more sleep will help. He said he was sorry.
I'm still glad he talked to me but now I've made it an issue, I've gone against my own beliefs and made him feel even more of a failure. I didn't own up to not feeling rejected so he thinks he's hurt me. The worst thing of all is that if it had stayed just the way it was it wouldn't have mattered that much - ok so I make the plans and suggestions - so what? He's the best lover I've ever known and judging by what friends and people here say I'm damn lucky.
I don't know what to do now - I'm worried about taking the lead, I'm worried he'll take the lead but not because he wants to, I'm worried he'll feel even worse if we don't do it more often. I don't know how or if I should tell him I knew it wasn't about me.
To put it in a nutshell I've got what I deserved and I've no idea how to undo what I've done.
I don't really know how to write this without it coming out wrong. D is a great lover, he's gentle and sensitive but a bit shy, he makes up for that by being so loving. He knows I enjoy it, I'm sure he does but I always have to suggest it, and it's so obvious most of the time that he'd rather just cuddle.
Last night I suggested an early night but not just for sleep. I went up for a bath while he studied and suggested he came to scrub my back - he did come up for a book, popped in to ask if I was Ok but then went back to study.
It was already nearly midnight after I got back downstairs but he was still hard at it and showed no signs of stopping until I got sleepy then he suggested we go to bed but just cuddle. I felt disappointed - that's all. I get loads of affection from him, tons of attention and cuddles, I know it's not about him not wanting me, I didn't feel rejected just worried because it's another slap in my face sign that something is wrong. I like the times I can forget, things that seem normal - the times it's in my face make me feel daunted and sad.
I acted rejected, I said maybe it would help if I was better looking, I reminded him it's always me that asks for sex. I let him think I felt unloved because I wanted him to talk to me and tell me what was happening. How's that for manipulation? It's literally below the belt!!
Ok - I got what I wanted, he talked. He doesn't feel sexy, he feels ashamed and tired. He enjoys it once he's stirred into action but until then he just wants to sleep and feel safe. He said he hasn't had any libido for years, his last girlfriend (of 3 years) told him it was a nuisance but he didn't mind. He said he feels ugly and pathetic. I told him he's sexy to me, that's why I ask for it, I told him he's a good lover - everything I could think of (all true) but he said he doesn't feel like he's any of that but that he'll try and get some earlier nights and maybe more sleep will help. He said he was sorry.
I'm still glad he talked to me but now I've made it an issue, I've gone against my own beliefs and made him feel even more of a failure. I didn't own up to not feeling rejected so he thinks he's hurt me. The worst thing of all is that if it had stayed just the way it was it wouldn't have mattered that much - ok so I make the plans and suggestions - so what? He's the best lover I've ever known and judging by what friends and people here say I'm damn lucky.
I don't know what to do now - I'm worried about taking the lead, I'm worried he'll take the lead but not because he wants to, I'm worried he'll feel even worse if we don't do it more often. I don't know how or if I should tell him I knew it wasn't about me.
To put it in a nutshell I've got what I deserved and I've no idea how to undo what I've done.
Ugh!
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Equus,
I cannot offer you advice, however, a few things you have said seemed rather interesting to me and very familiar. You said, "judging by what friends and people here say I'm damn lucky." What about what you think? You say you didn't feel rejected, however go on to say you have felt daunted and sad because of other times. I contradict my own feelings all the time. You obviously needed to talk to him, and he talked. You say YOU made him FEEL like more of a failure. Is this something you really control? I'd say you are doing a great job of beating yourself up over this. I know for me, right now where I am, I am not able to take on responsibility for anyone's feelings accept my own. I unfortunately cannot be there for everyone 100% of the time. Sometimes I make mistakes and when I do I go back to the steps, try to make amends except when to do so would injure them or others. If I'm sorry for something I have done I always fall back on those words, "except when to do so would injure them."
Please excuse me but it just seems all too familiar and so much like me. I don't give myself credit for my own feelings and when I express them I beat myself up over it. Is this one of those situations or do you really feel like you where wrong and totally manipulative? Sometimes I manipulate when my needs are not being met. If that is the case I need to figure out what it is I am really feeling and address that.
You cannot undo something that has been done, but there is always forgiveness especially with someone that loves you.
Thank you for your post, I think it reminded me how much I really need to pay attention to what I am REALLY feeling, and own up to those real feelings. It seems so simple, yet is really very difficult to do when I've been told what I am feeling for so very long.
BIG (((HUGS))),
~Faith
I cannot offer you advice, however, a few things you have said seemed rather interesting to me and very familiar. You said, "judging by what friends and people here say I'm damn lucky." What about what you think? You say you didn't feel rejected, however go on to say you have felt daunted and sad because of other times. I contradict my own feelings all the time. You obviously needed to talk to him, and he talked. You say YOU made him FEEL like more of a failure. Is this something you really control? I'd say you are doing a great job of beating yourself up over this. I know for me, right now where I am, I am not able to take on responsibility for anyone's feelings accept my own. I unfortunately cannot be there for everyone 100% of the time. Sometimes I make mistakes and when I do I go back to the steps, try to make amends except when to do so would injure them or others. If I'm sorry for something I have done I always fall back on those words, "except when to do so would injure them."
Please excuse me but it just seems all too familiar and so much like me. I don't give myself credit for my own feelings and when I express them I beat myself up over it. Is this one of those situations or do you really feel like you where wrong and totally manipulative? Sometimes I manipulate when my needs are not being met. If that is the case I need to figure out what it is I am really feeling and address that.
You cannot undo something that has been done, but there is always forgiveness especially with someone that loves you.
Thank you for your post, I think it reminded me how much I really need to pay attention to what I am REALLY feeling, and own up to those real feelings. It seems so simple, yet is really very difficult to do when I've been told what I am feeling for so very long.
BIG (((HUGS))),
~Faith
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You said, "judging by what friends and people here say I'm damn lucky." What about what you think?
You say you didn't feel rejected, however go on to say you have felt daunted and sad because of other times.
I did make him feel like a failure - I didn't feel rejected but I used my knowledge he'd tell me the truth rather than let me feel like it's me. I felt sad but not rejected.
All the knowledge in the world that I haven't got a magic wand doesn't stop it from hurting. I want him to be ok - for him.
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Update.
I thought I'd stick this here despite being a bit embarassed about making the last 3 posts (one of them was an add-on 
).
I re-read faithchaser's post and did feel better, I might not have felt rejected but I did need to talk about it because it isn't normal and there's a limit to how much I can pretend is ok.
He drank last night but not much, it was nothing to do with last night, he's been umming and arrring about his Guiness since Sunday. It usually opens him up a bit but it didn't last night until we got home. He talked about it again then but in a different way, he knows it depression. He said he's felt so bad for so long he's lost track of what normal is, on top of that he said he's had a hangover for the last 10-15 years so has often put everything down to that.
He's determined to sort it by himself, he says doctors don't help because they always diagnose depression and won't do anything unless he agrees to medication (which he tried and is now terrified of). His plan is to force himself in actions - anything but to make sure he does something every night, he knows that does effect brain chemicals.
On the one hand he come a long, long way on his own - fighting it like this, I can't get my head round how he never gave up and that gives me faith. On the other hand watching this fight day in day out makes me realise just how hard it's been and I wonder if he can keep going still against such enormous odds.
The thing is if he was a moaner he'd get the help, but he isn't, if he had the confidence to ask for treatment without pills I think he'd get something, but he hasn't, if he wasn't so ashamed maybe he would think about counselling, but he is. I wanted to talk because he doesn't he doesn't complain despite how obvious it is that he's struggling.
If I did believe in miracles, if I had one wish it would be that he liked himself.
). I re-read faithchaser's post and did feel better, I might not have felt rejected but I did need to talk about it because it isn't normal and there's a limit to how much I can pretend is ok.
He drank last night but not much, it was nothing to do with last night, he's been umming and arrring about his Guiness since Sunday. It usually opens him up a bit but it didn't last night until we got home. He talked about it again then but in a different way, he knows it depression. He said he's felt so bad for so long he's lost track of what normal is, on top of that he said he's had a hangover for the last 10-15 years so has often put everything down to that.
He's determined to sort it by himself, he says doctors don't help because they always diagnose depression and won't do anything unless he agrees to medication (which he tried and is now terrified of). His plan is to force himself in actions - anything but to make sure he does something every night, he knows that does effect brain chemicals.
On the one hand he come a long, long way on his own - fighting it like this, I can't get my head round how he never gave up and that gives me faith. On the other hand watching this fight day in day out makes me realise just how hard it's been and I wonder if he can keep going still against such enormous odds.
The thing is if he was a moaner he'd get the help, but he isn't, if he had the confidence to ask for treatment without pills I think he'd get something, but he hasn't, if he wasn't so ashamed maybe he would think about counselling, but he is. I wanted to talk because he doesn't he doesn't complain despite how obvious it is that he's struggling.
If I did believe in miracles, if I had one wish it would be that he liked himself.
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Originally Posted by equus
The thing is if he was a moaner he'd get the help, but he isn't, if he had the confidence to ask for treatment without pills I think he'd get something, but he hasn't, if he wasn't so ashamed maybe he would think about counselling, but he is. I wanted to talk because he doesn't he doesn't complain despite how obvious it is that he's struggling.
If I did believe in miracles, if I had one wish it would be that he liked himself.
If I did believe in miracles, if I had one wish it would be that he liked himself.
One thing that has puzzled me is that your OH says he knows it's depression, but then says he won't go to the docs because they'll just say it's depression. I don't quite understand. I know he has had a bad experience with anti-depressents in the past. Has this put him off ANY form of treatment?
Love
Minnie
xxx
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Has this put him off ANY form of treatment?
As far as counselling goes he thinks it just shows that he should be able to sort it out himself! ie - that it's not physical, or that the physical side of it is influenced by actions, ways of thinking etc. Secondly counselling relies on openess and talking neither of which is his strong point.
Remove all the ifs and yep the reality stinks - he'll try and go it alone. If he succeeds it'll add to everything else that's his fault because it'll prove it was always possible. If he fails it'll add to everything else that's his fault because he should have succeeded.
Bob's your uncle!! After years of this he's got no bloody confidence left!
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Equus,
I went through days of agony about a week ago, over an old act that haunts me. I went against all my morals and was extremely manipulative cunning and cold. I violated my morals and cannot undo the consequences of that act.
I cannot, in my circumstances make amends.
But I learned alot about my values and how much I did not want to violate them.
This may seem off topic. If it is, I apologize.
I kind of wanted to say, I think I understand what you are saying in a certain aspect.
hugs,
live
I went through days of agony about a week ago, over an old act that haunts me. I went against all my morals and was extremely manipulative cunning and cold. I violated my morals and cannot undo the consequences of that act.
I cannot, in my circumstances make amends.
But I learned alot about my values and how much I did not want to violate them.
This may seem off topic. If it is, I apologize.
I kind of wanted to say, I think I understand what you are saying in a certain aspect.
hugs,
live
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Equus
Sorry for prying, but I'm just trying to get a hande of the situation. I know I don't post on your threads very often and I think that's because I don't ask enough questions (see thread by sdp!).
How is he going to beat this on his own? Does he have any ideas? Or is he hoping that you will come up with some? (ouch, that was insensitive, but I don't know how else to phrase it). How did he get through his really bad patch? (sorry, can't remember if you've explained that before).
minnie
xxx
Sorry for prying, but I'm just trying to get a hande of the situation. I know I don't post on your threads very often and I think that's because I don't ask enough questions (see thread by sdp!).
How is he going to beat this on his own? Does he have any ideas? Or is he hoping that you will come up with some? (ouch, that was insensitive, but I don't know how else to phrase it). How did he get through his really bad patch? (sorry, can't remember if you've explained that before).
minnie
xxx
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Please don't be sorry - I'd much rather someone ask, it just feels like you care enough to want to know. no-one could remember everything I post - I talk too much!! Yes, he does have ideas. He's going to try and force himself to be a bit more active, put loftboards down, fix a broken cd printer he got from work. as he puts it give himself a good kicking up the backside.
I'm not 100% sure I don't think he is either - his memory around that time is awful. I know he went for help (hence the bad experience with AD's) and he did listen to what they said re the booze. He tried to cut down himself and managed some reduction but was still getting drunk at night rather than all day and at night. He also got work which I think helped a lot but then got bullied there after he rose through the ranks a bit too quick for some people's liking.
He ended up being given a golden handshake and a fantastic letter of recomendation, but without work he wound up pretty bad again. He couldn't get out his house and he said somedays were just one panic attack after another - I don't know whether he was trying not to drink or if his girlfriend at the time was giving it to him. Anyway he said in the end he wound up so angry at himself that he would stand in his hallway hitting the wall (he has the scars to show for it). He said when he got disgusted at himself enough he managed to get back outside again. I think he just punished himself for being stuck until being stuck was more scary than being in public.
the rest is more of the same really - he got another job, did really well in it etc etc. His girlfriend had an affair, got pregnant and dumped him. He realised he wasn't going to give in or kill himself so he rented a flat in the middle of nowhere (literally) it meant he could only drink what he took home sober. He won't and never has drive after a drink. Eventually he decided to stop drinking 2 months later he came to find me.
Sorry that's long but it spans about 9 years!!!
How is he going to beat this on his own? Does he have any ideas?
How did he get through his really bad patch? (sorry, can't remember if you've explained that before).
He ended up being given a golden handshake and a fantastic letter of recomendation, but without work he wound up pretty bad again. He couldn't get out his house and he said somedays were just one panic attack after another - I don't know whether he was trying not to drink or if his girlfriend at the time was giving it to him. Anyway he said in the end he wound up so angry at himself that he would stand in his hallway hitting the wall (he has the scars to show for it). He said when he got disgusted at himself enough he managed to get back outside again. I think he just punished himself for being stuck until being stuck was more scary than being in public.
the rest is more of the same really - he got another job, did really well in it etc etc. His girlfriend had an affair, got pregnant and dumped him. He realised he wasn't going to give in or kill himself so he rented a flat in the middle of nowhere (literally) it meant he could only drink what he took home sober. He won't and never has drive after a drink. Eventually he decided to stop drinking 2 months later he came to find me.
Sorry that's long but it spans about 9 years!!!
Dee at Mt Bully
Join Date: Oct 2004
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E--It's obvious he is suffering from depression and I don't think you did anything wrong
it had to come out in the open. The only thing I can offer is some things my AH has
been doing. Depression is like this big failure thing to him and he can't come to terms
with the fact that it to is an illness and can be treated--Easier than Alcoholism actually--but that's another subject. My AH goes to counseling every two weeks
his counselor is trying to address his depression issue without medication because
he is to a----- to get any other help. One thing she has him doing is excercise--walking outside--next he is to take no less than one afternoon to do something he enjoys--ride his motorcycle--see a movie--(not drink) and next he is suppose to
spend time with a friend or family member just relaxing-no heavy discussion--and
he is suppose to do at least one nice thing for himself--like new shirt--bath--
whatever--I hope maybe some of these ideas will be a bit helpful. You have to remember you can be supportive but you cannot fix this. Prayers and smiles--Dee
it had to come out in the open. The only thing I can offer is some things my AH has
been doing. Depression is like this big failure thing to him and he can't come to terms
with the fact that it to is an illness and can be treated--Easier than Alcoholism actually--but that's another subject. My AH goes to counseling every two weeks
his counselor is trying to address his depression issue without medication because
he is to a----- to get any other help. One thing she has him doing is excercise--walking outside--next he is to take no less than one afternoon to do something he enjoys--ride his motorcycle--see a movie--(not drink) and next he is suppose to
spend time with a friend or family member just relaxing-no heavy discussion--and
he is suppose to do at least one nice thing for himself--like new shirt--bath--
whatever--I hope maybe some of these ideas will be a bit helpful. You have to remember you can be supportive but you cannot fix this. Prayers and smiles--Dee
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One thing she has him doing is excercise--walking outside--next he is to take no less than one afternoon to do something he enjoys--ride his motorcycle--see a movie--(not drink) and next he is suppose to
spend time with a friend or family member just relaxing-no heavy discussion--and
he is suppose to do at least one nice thing for himself--like new shirt--bath--
whatever--I hope maybe some of these ideas will be a bit helpful. You have to remember you can be supportive but you cannot fix this. Prayers and smiles--Dee
spend time with a friend or family member just relaxing-no heavy discussion--and
he is suppose to do at least one nice thing for himself--like new shirt--bath--
whatever--I hope maybe some of these ideas will be a bit helpful. You have to remember you can be supportive but you cannot fix this. Prayers and smiles--Dee
Doing the loft boards is his plan for excercise, and I think that really could help if he can motivate himself enough to not feel like he's a failure for not doing enough.
As far as socialising/other exercise goes it's very hard. He still really struggles with anything outside the house, apart from a meal at friends last saturday (which was pure and absolute heaven to watch), he's basically to shy to speak at all without a drink. He has 'made' himself go out socially sober but it's painful to watch and must be hell to go through.
I love it when we get funny videos out - he laughs his socks off at daft cartoons!!
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I hope you don't see this as fluff since I really mean it but since he doesn't want to take prescription medication, has he ever tried herbs or vitamins? Like I said, I'm not trying to be funny or anything. I am a very moody person by nature and my aunt who is in to all that stuff told me I should take B12 vitamins. I thought, "Yeah right." But since my mood swings are very bad I figured I couldn't lose anything. I tried it and it helped a lot. Didn't take everything away but it took off the edge. I found an interesting article about it if you're interested. Okay two. http://depression.about.com/cs/diet/a/vitamin.htm
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/vitamin_B12.html
I hope you don't think I'm making light of depression. I am serious. It was a huge help for me. I of course am no doctor but maybe it wouldn't hurt?
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/vitamin_B12.html
I hope you don't think I'm making light of depression. I am serious. It was a huge help for me. I of course am no doctor but maybe it wouldn't hurt?
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Aquiana - great minds and all that 
I bought the book 'Optimum Nutrition for the Mind' and I do think making sure he eats well has made a positive difference. I also bought vits but unless I take them out the bottle and put them in front of him he doesn't bother. The really odd thing is that fish genuinely seems to make him relaxed and more happy, enough for him to notice it does him good. Trout for tea tonight!!
I suppose it sounds worse here because I'm only talking about the problems. He does very well at work and no-one there has any idea he's anything other than bloody talented. They seem to take him being quiet as a quirk cos he's very very clever. We have a laugh when it's just us too, and he's ticklish!!!
I bought the book 'Optimum Nutrition for the Mind' and I do think making sure he eats well has made a positive difference. I also bought vits but unless I take them out the bottle and put them in front of him he doesn't bother. The really odd thing is that fish genuinely seems to make him relaxed and more happy, enough for him to notice it does him good. Trout for tea tonight!! I suppose it sounds worse here because I'm only talking about the problems. He does very well at work and no-one there has any idea he's anything other than bloody talented. They seem to take him being quiet as a quirk cos he's very very clever. We have a laugh when it's just us too, and he's ticklish!!!
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Don't you have every right to talk to your mate about your sex life? You don't need to fabricate being hurt. Just express your needs. BUT, certainly don't beat yourself up about how you brought it up. Isn't it difficult ...even when the two of you are close, to bring up a sensitive subject such as this? You brought it out in the open. That's a lot more than most people do. Perhaps next time you will be a little more forthcoming and truthful. But I don't see that you were hurtful. Perhaps there was a little truth to your expressions? I certainly might feel rejected and feel a bit unwanted if my partner didn't initiate sex.
I read once though where it is highly unlikely that both partners will have the same sex drive at the same time in their lives. At one time or another or perhpas throughout their lives together, one partner will initiate more, want more, etc. Taht is normal. And I think talking about it is very very healthy.
I understand about the regret about your manipulation, although I had to read your post three times to understand where you thought you went wrong. I'm slow I guess!!! LOL
I think depression is tough to treat. Anxiety too. I suffer from both. But I am on medication finally. It took a lot of convincing and a lot of bottoming out to convince me to go on meds. I would start one, start feeling a bit better and think I was "cured" and go off the meds. After three cycles of this and a few in between trying to find the right meds and the right dose...finally i'm on one that I'm sticking with. It takes a while to find the right medication. Just as it is hard to find a good counselor/therapist. I hope your DH can one day see that this isn't a weakness and he should seek help.
I read once though where it is highly unlikely that both partners will have the same sex drive at the same time in their lives. At one time or another or perhpas throughout their lives together, one partner will initiate more, want more, etc. Taht is normal. And I think talking about it is very very healthy.
I understand about the regret about your manipulation, although I had to read your post three times to understand where you thought you went wrong. I'm slow I guess!!! LOL
I think depression is tough to treat. Anxiety too. I suffer from both. But I am on medication finally. It took a lot of convincing and a lot of bottoming out to convince me to go on meds. I would start one, start feeling a bit better and think I was "cured" and go off the meds. After three cycles of this and a few in between trying to find the right meds and the right dose...finally i'm on one that I'm sticking with. It takes a while to find the right medication. Just as it is hard to find a good counselor/therapist. I hope your DH can one day see that this isn't a weakness and he should seek help.
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I don't know if this thread is getting really annoying, I thought it was less annoying than starting new ones and it has helped.
On the rights and wrongs of what I did - I still think it was wrong, I have a right to talk about anything but not to 'pretend' I feel in a way that isn't true just to make something I want to happen happen. But maybe in the long run it did as much good as harm and I've learned from it, I will be more honest in future.
D was out for the count after work last night, he had 3 pints on Tuesday (night before) but since he stopped for a while it seems to completely wipe him out the following day. His eyes were red and eyelids were visibly swollen, apart from doing some Uni stuff and a 10 minute half hearted go on the playstation he just slept on the sofa till bedtime.
Fingers crossed for the loftboards tonight.....
On the rights and wrongs of what I did - I still think it was wrong, I have a right to talk about anything but not to 'pretend' I feel in a way that isn't true just to make something I want to happen happen. But maybe in the long run it did as much good as harm and I've learned from it, I will be more honest in future.
D was out for the count after work last night, he had 3 pints on Tuesday (night before) but since he stopped for a while it seems to completely wipe him out the following day. His eyes were red and eyelids were visibly swollen, apart from doing some Uni stuff and a 10 minute half hearted go on the playstation he just slept on the sofa till bedtime.
Fingers crossed for the loftboards tonight.....
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