Control or lack of it?
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Control or lack of it?
One thing that's had me confused for a long time is whether or not my D had control over his drinking before he decided to stop.
On the one hand he wasn't getting drunk, he went to extreme efforts to limit what he drank - not starting a four pack until the shop was shut etc. I was very concerned as the amount crept up and his control seemed all over the place. I asked him what he would like to drink if he had an ideal world and he said he'd like to drink just two days a week but only a little and very occassionally have a 'real' night out. I suggested he made that a target so that he would know if he was in control - originally the target had been to achieve that by Christmas.
Long before the deadline to see if he could do it he decided to stop (he never promised to never drink again though - he always planned to have a drink with his father). Largely I think he stopped sooner because he was scared, he wasn't managing it, he was drinking more not less. Apart from 2 fairly extreme occasions over the last 2 months he has stopped.
On the one hand he didn't let it keep spiralling, he drew a tighter boundry (control), on the other he drew that boundary because it was spiralling (lack of control).
Most stuff about relapses, drinking alcoholics, 'the progressive disease' all views control in a black and white sense. But this really confuses me, I can't say to myself he had no control, through those months trying to drink a little he had to fight very hard not to keep drinking when he started. He had a bizarre relationship with alcohol - desperate to order another pint before time, then having one sip and leaving it behind. Without any control he'd have been drunk every night.
I also can't say to myself he was in control, he was all over the place trying on thing after another, half succeeding, half failing. I think another reason he chose to stop was because of the effort it was taking - and that even with that effort he certainly wasn't winning.
I think the years we were apart were constantly like this. He did cut down his drinking but never enough to stop it from damaging his life until he gave up. I'm 80% sure his last attempt at social drinking (when he found me) was in order to avoid what we're going through now with friends. Don't worry i'm not blaming me!!
Those missing years are a mystery to me, I know he got a hold of his life in that time, I know he cut down what he drank, I also know he was an alcoholic and when he turned up I saw a very addictive relationship with booze. I know he can't control it but how the hell did he manage some control - enough to get working, to get a life. 10 years ago he lived so drunk he couldn't do anything.
Has anyone else ever been cofused by this?
On the one hand he wasn't getting drunk, he went to extreme efforts to limit what he drank - not starting a four pack until the shop was shut etc. I was very concerned as the amount crept up and his control seemed all over the place. I asked him what he would like to drink if he had an ideal world and he said he'd like to drink just two days a week but only a little and very occassionally have a 'real' night out. I suggested he made that a target so that he would know if he was in control - originally the target had been to achieve that by Christmas.
Long before the deadline to see if he could do it he decided to stop (he never promised to never drink again though - he always planned to have a drink with his father). Largely I think he stopped sooner because he was scared, he wasn't managing it, he was drinking more not less. Apart from 2 fairly extreme occasions over the last 2 months he has stopped.
On the one hand he didn't let it keep spiralling, he drew a tighter boundry (control), on the other he drew that boundary because it was spiralling (lack of control).
Most stuff about relapses, drinking alcoholics, 'the progressive disease' all views control in a black and white sense. But this really confuses me, I can't say to myself he had no control, through those months trying to drink a little he had to fight very hard not to keep drinking when he started. He had a bizarre relationship with alcohol - desperate to order another pint before time, then having one sip and leaving it behind. Without any control he'd have been drunk every night.
I also can't say to myself he was in control, he was all over the place trying on thing after another, half succeeding, half failing. I think another reason he chose to stop was because of the effort it was taking - and that even with that effort he certainly wasn't winning.
I think the years we were apart were constantly like this. He did cut down his drinking but never enough to stop it from damaging his life until he gave up. I'm 80% sure his last attempt at social drinking (when he found me) was in order to avoid what we're going through now with friends. Don't worry i'm not blaming me!!
Those missing years are a mystery to me, I know he got a hold of his life in that time, I know he cut down what he drank, I also know he was an alcoholic and when he turned up I saw a very addictive relationship with booze. I know he can't control it but how the hell did he manage some control - enough to get working, to get a life. 10 years ago he lived so drunk he couldn't do anything.
Has anyone else ever been cofused by this?
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Hey, equus! I'm Eddie, female alcoholic, addict and co-dependent. For me, not knowing when I would be in control and when I wouldn't was the same as not being in control. I couldn't predict whether, once I started drinking, I would be able to stop. Sure, sometimes I could drink in moderation, but I never really knew when those times would be. This unpredictability was one of the keys to my First Step, admitting that I was indeed powerless over alcohol. Does that help any? I hope so!
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
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That makes LOADS of sense!! At first he wanted me to have control over what he drank and in my ignorance for a while I tried. He always stopped when I said enough but the friction began when I started to hand the control back to him. Being in charge of what he dranks went against all my raw instincts but no matter how gently I tried to put him back in the driving seat, even asking him before he drank how much he wanted before I said to stop was a problem.
He also has never drank anything before driving - I know lots of people have that rule but even while he was drinking on other occasions, if he was driving he wouldn't touch anything. He got a wasp in his juice and wanted to wash down some food, rather than have one mouthful of beer a friend offered him - he queued for another juice. I knew that was odd because he's too clever to think one mouthful can effect driving - unless you're not sure if it will lead to more of course.
There's something in what you say, I've a feeling I'll take it back to him - what he does with it is up to him.
He also has never drank anything before driving - I know lots of people have that rule but even while he was drinking on other occasions, if he was driving he wouldn't touch anything. He got a wasp in his juice and wanted to wash down some food, rather than have one mouthful of beer a friend offered him - he queued for another juice. I knew that was odd because he's too clever to think one mouthful can effect driving - unless you're not sure if it will lead to more of course.
There's something in what you say, I've a feeling I'll take it back to him - what he does with it is up to him.
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Originally Posted by equus
I knew that was odd because he's too clever to think one mouthful can effect driving - unless you're not sure if it will lead to more of course.
Love and hugs,
Eddie
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I know he's an alcoholic, just I didn't get how he'd managed to cut down without stopping. Or why he could drink without getting drunk.
The unpredictability thing made sense. Nearly everything he did was supported by something outside himself - if that wasn't in place he didn't drink.
It might make sense of the day he said he wanted to stop too. He'd gone for 1 beer after his exam. I rang to ask him to let the dogs out at lunch (I couldn't get back from work and knew he had a half day) so he did stop after just the 1. Only that night he said if I hadn't rang he'd have carried on, I think it scared him that he went for a drink at that time of day and without an external cut off. The cut off was just chance, he broke his own rules.
It is helping to make sense of it this way.
The unpredictability thing made sense. Nearly everything he did was supported by something outside himself - if that wasn't in place he didn't drink.
It might make sense of the day he said he wanted to stop too. He'd gone for 1 beer after his exam. I rang to ask him to let the dogs out at lunch (I couldn't get back from work and knew he had a half day) so he did stop after just the 1. Only that night he said if I hadn't rang he'd have carried on, I think it scared him that he went for a drink at that time of day and without an external cut off. The cut off was just chance, he broke his own rules.
It is helping to make sense of it this way.
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I had an aunt who went through the same thing as your AH. She would cut herself back and eventually stop. But she started casual drinking and it escalated into a full-blown drinker.
For her, she was trying to prove to herself and others that she wasn't an alcoholic like her sister and my husband. She failed miserably.
What would have happened after that I don't know because she passed away during another attempt to quit drinking. She had a CVA.
Hugs, Kathy
For her, she was trying to prove to herself and others that she wasn't an alcoholic like her sister and my husband. She failed miserably.
What would have happened after that I don't know because she passed away during another attempt to quit drinking. She had a CVA.
Hugs, Kathy
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Thanks Kate,
David has said he knows he's an alcoholic but he hates the label. I think it's a mixture of fear and surprise in himself that he did get this far.
He was failing when he stopped, slowly but failing, it's just that he chose to put a tighter rein on it before he wound up drunk again. Perhaps the dreadful state he got into before scared him enough to make him a little more cautious than your aunt. It's sad that she died just as she's decided to quit. I know the same could happen to D but I'm determined to stay positive, his trend for six years now has been to put tighter restraints on himself rather than just give up and get wasted. He's got an extrodinary tenacity, he won't leave even a maths problem for food or sleep till he's worked it out - other people do give up, but he tends to be obsessive about not being defeated! I don't know if that'll work in his favour though, except he's determined not to be a drunk again.
The other thing that gets me is he always says not drinking is easy!! I watch actions not words, and there's something seriously messed up with this. I know it isn't easy, his reaction if a pub is mentioned tells me he does too. It feels like saying it's easy is a way of psyching himself up now and blaming himself even more for what happened in the past.
Flip - I don't know. Thinking of unpredicatable control not being real control does make so much sense though. That'll make sense to him to I think, I'm sure he's a bit confused by the same thing, I know he read up about alcoholism but he said by then he had past the worst of being drunk. Maybe that's why he's not black and white about it. 'If.... then....' logic possibly wouldn't have helped.
It starts to make sense if you say
IF control isn't consistent and is unpredictable....... THEN it's not true control.
Much more sense than IF you still have a drink THEN you will lose all control and get drunk.
David has said he knows he's an alcoholic but he hates the label. I think it's a mixture of fear and surprise in himself that he did get this far.
He was failing when he stopped, slowly but failing, it's just that he chose to put a tighter rein on it before he wound up drunk again. Perhaps the dreadful state he got into before scared him enough to make him a little more cautious than your aunt. It's sad that she died just as she's decided to quit. I know the same could happen to D but I'm determined to stay positive, his trend for six years now has been to put tighter restraints on himself rather than just give up and get wasted. He's got an extrodinary tenacity, he won't leave even a maths problem for food or sleep till he's worked it out - other people do give up, but he tends to be obsessive about not being defeated! I don't know if that'll work in his favour though, except he's determined not to be a drunk again.
The other thing that gets me is he always says not drinking is easy!! I watch actions not words, and there's something seriously messed up with this. I know it isn't easy, his reaction if a pub is mentioned tells me he does too. It feels like saying it's easy is a way of psyching himself up now and blaming himself even more for what happened in the past.
Flip - I don't know. Thinking of unpredicatable control not being real control does make so much sense though. That'll make sense to him to I think, I'm sure he's a bit confused by the same thing, I know he read up about alcoholism but he said by then he had past the worst of being drunk. Maybe that's why he's not black and white about it. 'If.... then....' logic possibly wouldn't have helped.
It starts to make sense if you say
IF control isn't consistent and is unpredictable....... THEN it's not true control.
Much more sense than IF you still have a drink THEN you will lose all control and get drunk.
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Originally Posted by equus
IF control isn't consistent and is unpredictable....... THEN it's not true control.
Exactly!Has he considered AA? If he hates the term "alcoholic," then I would guess not. But it could be really good if he'd be willing to give it a try. In the meantime, you may want to try Al-Anon for yourself. They can help you learn to take care of yourself and keep the focus on YOU. I wish you both the very best of course!
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
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Originally Posted by eddie z.
Exactly!Has he considered AA? If he hates the term "alcoholic," then I would guess not. But it could be really good if he'd be willing to give it a try. In the meantime, you may want to try Al-Anon for yourself. They can help you learn to take care of yourself and keep the focus on YOU. I wish you both the very best of course!
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
He'd rather peel his own skin off than sit in a room full of people and talk!! I think he'd rather then role around skinless in salt before talking about alcohol!!
I tried a quit smoking group once but it SO wasn't for me, I'm not patient enough and get frustrated when people think questioning stuff is either rude or argumentative, - it's just how I learn.
As an atheist, and someone who questions some of the twelve steps my decision for me has been to give al-anon a miss for now. I don't want the stress.
It's not that I don't want info though - that's why I'm here and my decision about al-anon may well change, as might my decision to attend. Right now this site is helping lots, ceratinly without having chatted about some of the things I have here I wouldn't even have considered al-anon a future prospect.
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Originally Posted by equus
He'd rather peel his own skin off than sit in a room full of people and talk!! I think he'd rather then role around skinless in salt before talking about alcohol!
AA and the Twelve Steps do not require that you believe in God per se. They have deep roots in agnosticism. I use the term "God" largely out of convenience myself. Here is a quote from the "Big Book," Alcoholics Anonymous:
When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so...Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.
Al-Anon of course, being an offshoot from AA, and using EXACTLY the same Steps, allows great freedom of interpretation as to what the word "God" means. To me, it's short for Higher Power and a lot easier to say! LOL.
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
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Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.
Either way that quote seems utterly illogical - it just sounds like wisdom.
I don't doubt at some time the world will end - I think we may be extinct before then though. I have braincells therefore I think and choose how to live - I don't need life to mean more than that.
Argh!! I don't like getting into this - which is the best reason yet not to attend Al-anon.
Please don't take offence - I just disagree. I totally agree with what you said about control, that made absolute sense to me.
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Originally Posted by equus
it just sounds like wisdom.
I'm sorry. I hope I didn't offend YOU. I wasn't really trying to prove God's existence or anything. I just wanted you to know some things about Twelve Step programs that I didn't know starting out. I thought they were a religious cult! LOL.
Oh, well, even if i was wrong about the Steps not being for me, still they're not for everyone I guess. But I do think it's important for recovery to have social support, especially from people who've been through similar things.
Sleep well! I suppose it's about your bedtime there now.
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie
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Hello equus :hello2
Of course not drinking is easy. You put down the bottle. You count to three and there! You didn't drink....... for 3 seconds.
But that doesn't solve the problem, does it?
Let's change the words around and see if it makes more sense.
Suppose a man decides he is _not_ going to paint his face pink anymore. Never again. He asks his wife to drive him places so he is not tempted to stop at the store and buy pink paint. He sometimes dabs just a spot of pink on his nose to see if he can control himself and not paint the whole of his face. He asks the owner of the paint store never to sell him more than a pint of pink paint.
Is this man in control of the pink paint? Or not?
Alcohol is a _chemical_. Just like gasoline. If you set fire to gasoline all the will power in the world will not put out the fire. Alcohol affects the brain, and that's the part of the body that generates the will power.
All those attempts at control are _not_ control. They're just _postponemnt_. The only way to stop drinking forever is to stop drinking one day at a time.
Dunno what meetings are like in your part of the world. But over here you would be welcomed with open arms and given plenty of hugs. Al-Anon is _not_ about what you believe or not believe, it's about recovery. The 12 steps are merely suggestions, you are free to use them, modify them, ignore them, whatever. People who are uncomfortable with the ending prayer at our meetings are encouraged to simply ignore the prayer, or step outside if they choose, or whatever makes them comfortable. The "Higher Power" concept is clearly laid out as being "of our understanding". So you are free to define you Higher Power any which way you want and we will all respect it and encourage you and hope to learn from you.
Whadya think?
Mike :-)
Originally Posted by equus
... The other thing that gets me is he always says not drinking is easy!!
But that doesn't solve the problem, does it?
Let's change the words around and see if it makes more sense.
Suppose a man decides he is _not_ going to paint his face pink anymore. Never again. He asks his wife to drive him places so he is not tempted to stop at the store and buy pink paint. He sometimes dabs just a spot of pink on his nose to see if he can control himself and not paint the whole of his face. He asks the owner of the paint store never to sell him more than a pint of pink paint.
Is this man in control of the pink paint? Or not?
Alcohol is a _chemical_. Just like gasoline. If you set fire to gasoline all the will power in the world will not put out the fire. Alcohol affects the brain, and that's the part of the body that generates the will power.
All those attempts at control are _not_ control. They're just _postponemnt_. The only way to stop drinking forever is to stop drinking one day at a time.
Originally Posted by equus
... As an atheist, and someone who questions some of the twelve steps my decision for me has been to give al-anon a miss for now. I don't want the stress.
Whadya think?
Mike :-)
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Eddie,
No you didn't ofend me at all - not even the tiniest bit. I think it's a deep seated human desire in all of us to defend and explain our beliefs. I think we need to that's how we all learn, but in moderation.
I've had an amazing amount of support and hugs and care from this forum, but it's hard to miss that on some things I stick out, not least of which is that I don't have the same faith in the twelve steps or AA. Discussion is healthy but only in moderation. I would feel the same desire to justify my beliefs too, what if that meant me rocking someone's faith who needed it? What if that led to people feeling their beliefs had been devalued? Or that their experience had been ignored? I worry lots on here that what I say might not leave a good footprint - but it's a forum and the bottom line is that I know people can scroll past. They can ignore my posts or responses so the ball is in their court and I'm ok with that. In a meeting that's not the same, it only takes two people at loggerheads to disrupt the whole thing and I know I'm not perfect, I know I can try to hard to defend my beliefs too. If in the future the time comes when I feel I can show up as someone realing wanting to recover from co-dependency then I promise I will, but right now that isn't the case. I don't feel my behaviour needs a label, like most peoples sometimes it's misguided but I try hard to make the best decisions with the information I have AND to increase that information all the time. For me, right now I believe not attending al-anon is the best decision with the information I have.
I do understand what your saying about support, that's why I come here and at the moment I'm trying very hard to explain to friends that they need to try and understand. Either my friends will go the extra mile or they won't but until I know that they're my first choice. Nobody goes through the same as someone else, all of us have to listen to each other to begin to really understand. My experience would be vastly different to others married to alcoholics - just as in reality their experiences are different from each others. I don't want someone to think they understand my husband just because he's an alcoholic. I never want to call him my 'A' - he isn't he has a name, and he's my husband. 'My' is a possesive and his alcoholism isn't mine - he isn't my alcoholic, he's still a man, my man. That's individual though and I respect that - I just don't want to change me in that equation.
Mike!
This he is doing. What I wrote in this post was about me not really understanding. I wanted to be able to equate what I hear with what I saw. Eddie did that for me in grand style!! They weren't his questions, he has his own I'm sure and I don't think he's done with them yet. I trust him to find his answers, what Eddie said made so much sense of the day he decided to stop, I know he's chosing to not drink because he doesn't have the control. At the moment I think the dilema has more to do with him not wanting me to pay a price for him NOT drinking, but I guess you'd have to be a fly on the wall to see that. He has a lot of courage and maybe too much experience forcing himself to overcome fear. He is scared of booze, I know from the tone of his voice when it's suggested, I know from the way he's looked at it when he has drank, and the way he's run off and left it on the table.
I'm sorry. I hope I didn't offend YOU. I wasn't really trying to prove God's existence or anything.
I've had an amazing amount of support and hugs and care from this forum, but it's hard to miss that on some things I stick out, not least of which is that I don't have the same faith in the twelve steps or AA. Discussion is healthy but only in moderation. I would feel the same desire to justify my beliefs too, what if that meant me rocking someone's faith who needed it? What if that led to people feeling their beliefs had been devalued? Or that their experience had been ignored? I worry lots on here that what I say might not leave a good footprint - but it's a forum and the bottom line is that I know people can scroll past. They can ignore my posts or responses so the ball is in their court and I'm ok with that. In a meeting that's not the same, it only takes two people at loggerheads to disrupt the whole thing and I know I'm not perfect, I know I can try to hard to defend my beliefs too. If in the future the time comes when I feel I can show up as someone realing wanting to recover from co-dependency then I promise I will, but right now that isn't the case. I don't feel my behaviour needs a label, like most peoples sometimes it's misguided but I try hard to make the best decisions with the information I have AND to increase that information all the time. For me, right now I believe not attending al-anon is the best decision with the information I have.
I do understand what your saying about support, that's why I come here and at the moment I'm trying very hard to explain to friends that they need to try and understand. Either my friends will go the extra mile or they won't but until I know that they're my first choice. Nobody goes through the same as someone else, all of us have to listen to each other to begin to really understand. My experience would be vastly different to others married to alcoholics - just as in reality their experiences are different from each others. I don't want someone to think they understand my husband just because he's an alcoholic. I never want to call him my 'A' - he isn't he has a name, and he's my husband. 'My' is a possesive and his alcoholism isn't mine - he isn't my alcoholic, he's still a man, my man. That's individual though and I respect that - I just don't want to change me in that equation.
Mike!
The only way to stop drinking forever is to stop drinking one day at a time.
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I never want to call him my 'A' - he isn't he has a name, and he's my husband. 'My' is a possesive and his alcoholism isn't mine - he isn't my alcoholic, he's still a man, my man.
Peace, love, and hugs,
Eddie :suspect:
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