DesertEyes

Hi gang,

I was at my Sat. Al-Anon meeting yesterday, and this wondeful "elder" sat down to have a talk with me about my sharing. (I seem to get a lot of that, "elders" sitting me down for a talk, guess I'm sicker than most :-)



It was about boundaries. Mine, specifically, or the lack thereof. See, I do have boundaries, there are things that I need in a relationship. I shared about how infidelity is an absolute boundary for me. AW and I talked about it at length before we got married, and we both agreed on it. Lately, however, in the throes of her disease, she has blasted thru that particular boundary every which way but loose.

The "elder" shared with me how that would be a "deal breaker" for her, and how she would walk at the very first transgression. How come I didn't? How come I was still willing to remain in this relationship even though my boundaries have been shattered?

I have no clue. My boundary just kind of vanished like the Cheshire Cat from the "Alice in Wonderland" story. Poof. gone.

So it was suggested I take a long hard look at step one, and enhance it to fit my needs:

"I am powerless over my need for love...."

My need to be loved, accepted and cherished is so great, that it overwhelms all my other needs and leaves me vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. Such as getting my boundaries shattered.

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

Truth

Hi
I just wanted to suggest that you check out a CODA meeting also. It might give you another perspective on stuff. I was going to al anon at first but i think i feel more comfortable in CODA cause i think my addiction is people and I want to learn to have healthy relationships

equus

I want to write something but I've no idea what...

I just hope for you with all my heart. I hope you find your answers. 12 years ago I was with a man who I would have given my heart - I also had monogomy as a boundry which he broke, I wasn't married but I ended it and never doubted I did the right thing.

I wish I had something more constructive to offer, all I can do is hope for you.

Ann

Mike

I think it was wrong for this "elder" to take your inventory. This simply was not hers to comment on.

Boundaries are about protecting ourselves, not controlling anyone else, and sometimes we find we are more flexible than we thought, sometimes we simply cannot keep a boundary, and sometimes our boundaries become brick walls that stand between the rest of the world and ourselves.

They are only intended to be guidelines, bottom lines if you will, for what we will and will not consider acceptable in our lives. They are intended to be healthy guidlelines for us.

Your wife's behavour has caused you distress, it would cause most husbands distress. But how you choose to hande this is entirely up to you and nobody's business. Under your same circumstances, some leave and move on...others stay and work through it...and some just remain resentful and hurt for a long time.

For the short time I have known you, it seems to me that your recovery is well in place, and you should be able to make a healthy decision for yourself without the interference of anyone else.

Hugs
Ann

Karivan

Hi Sweetie. I agree with Ann. You're a smart man and you'll know in your heart what to do, when to do it. I looked in our area but there doesn't seem to be a CODA meeting anywhere near. Perhaps there is one in your area. That may help.

Blessing Mike. You're in my thoughts and prayers.

DesertEyes

thanx for the suggestion. I've heard of CODA but have never checked it out. I'll definetly look into it.

thanx

Mike :-)

DesertEyes

Thank you so very much for that. You have no idea how much it means to me to know that you care :-)

I will, I will. With all this horse-pucky I've got in my life there's _got_ to be a pony somewhere :-)

Hope is far more valuable than constructive. I can find my own answers, but without hope I would not even begin to look. Your taking the time to write a quick reply to my post and send me hope is what this whole recovery program is all about. You are, quite literally, doing the 12 step in my favor :-)

thanx

Mike :-)

frankly

I don't think it matters what she would do to you in that situation. It only matters what you want to do. This is your recovery.

This may be the wrong thing for me to say and I'm sorry if it is, but at this point even after what my husband has done if I had the chance to forgive him and save my marriage, I'd do it in a split second. Why? People might ask me. It's simple because it would make ME happy. And I would probably do it again and again until -I -didn't want to. I would probably open myself up to being hurt again. But I would still risk it. If it made me appear obsessive or co-dependent or crazy, wouldn't care. I'm of the strong opinion that forgivness is never wrong.

I'm not saying that would be right for you Mike, I guess I'm saying that only you can make that decision. No matter what that decision was if it made you happy, I'd be on the sidelines cheering. You Go Mike, You Go Mike, You Go

Reach out there and grab onto some happiness Mike.

Ms. B

DesertEyes

Hi there Ann :-)

You're absolutely right. Taking somebody else's inventory is dead wrong.

What I failed to make clear in my post is that what I was given was a bit of "tough love" that I really needed to hear at that time. It was I who brought up the issue of my boundaries at the meeting, I asked for feedback. Several people were kind enough to provide their ESH after the meeting. This one particular elder brought some important issues I have been in denial about, and that I need to take a hard look at in order to make progress in my recovery.

I have read your comments very carefuly. I have read about boundaries in the various Al-Anon literature I have at hand, and perused this forum at length. I completely understand what you said, as far as I can with my limited Al-Anon experience. Where I have a huge doubt is with your following statement.

This is where I get stuck. I have come to realize that I have _not_ chosen how to handle this, or any other of my boundaries. It is clear to me now that I have been in denial of much of my wife's behavior, that I have made excuses for my completely ignoring my boundaries and allowing myself to be hurt. I did _not_ choose to be "flexible" in my boundary, I simply abdicated my right to have one.

That is a character defect which I need to explore and overcome. As you correctly pointed out, I _should_ be able to choose my boundaries, and how to modify them as the situation warrants.

What was brought to my attention is that in order for a boundary to be effective, there must be a consequence. I have set up boundaries, but I have lacked the faith, or made the necesary preparations, to follow thru on the consequences. Therefore, when my boundary is broken, I fail to respond with the consequence and just hide my head in the sand.

I've heard it called a "broken promise". Just like my Alcoholic parents constantly broke their promises to me as a child, I am now breaking my own promises to myself. I need to learn _not_ to make a promise until I am ready to carry it out, and then learn to actually carry it out.

thank you, that's a wonderful compliment.

I come from a long line of very hard-nosed and tough-loved AA recovery. This particular meeting is strong in that tradition, and most of the members are "double-winners" as I am. Being an alcoholic myself, I need to hear the unvarnished truth, else I am at risk of falling prey to my own disease.

I appreciate your words of warning. It's nice to know you care enough to fire up a flare and say "look out". I'll take your advice to heart and be careful not to let anybody take my inventory and mess with my head, I do that enough on my own already ;-)

Mike :-)

DesertEyes

thanx, thoughts and prayers are much appreciated. Here's a bunch of mine heading your way

Mike :-)

DesertEyes

Hi there Ms. B. :-)

Well, in that case you are ahead of me in your recovery. You _know_ what you would do and why you would do it. Yours truly has been there, made a decision on what to do, and then failed to follow thru. What I am working on now is being able to actually follow thru, whatever the decision may be.

thank you :-) You are so sweet. That is so wondefuly supportive.

I am, I am. I know it's out there. I'll get to it, one baby step at a time.

Mike :-)

Ann

Mike, forgive me but I am curious about something in the statement above. It's about the "consequence". It strikes me that her consequence might be her own guilt and shame, and those are both her issues to deal with and get past.

I don't think "consequences" means we have to dish out punishment. It just means we don't rescue them from their own consequence of remorse.

OR...if your boundary is that you will not stay with a partner who is unfaithful, then the consequence would be that you would leave....but do you really want to do that??

Personally, I think the cart may be before the horse. I think when you work through this and decide what you would like to do, then that will be the time where you could set a boundary that would protect you from further pain.

Just my opinion, and I could be very wrong. This is a tough one to figure out.

Hugs
Ann

DesertEyes

hmmm... you're right, I was not clear there at all.

That's the kind of consequence I meant. If my partner breaks a boundary then I will protect myself with a specific behavior.

Yes, I do. For many reasons.

For health reasons. As part of her treatment for her disability she takes chemotherapy. That reduces her immune system to almost nothing. If I catch a cold, she gets pneumonia. If she goes out and "plays the field" she's going to cach _everything_ that's out there. I love her dearly, but I'm not willing to die for her entertainment.

For commitmnent reasons. Sexual fidelity is one of the ways we show each other that we are special to each other. That _us_ is more important than _others_.

For trust reasons. If either of us feels the need to find sexual satisfaction elsewhere we should have enough trust to be able to talk about it. If we don't have the trust, then we should get marital counseling and build the trust.

For honesty. If either of us is so disenchanted with the relationship, we should get divorced _first_ and then go do as we please.

I found out about her infidelity when the other guy's wife called me on the phone, having found out herself about the affair. She turned out to be a real sweetie, pregnant with their first.

Ideally, yes. I did set a boundary. Infidelity is unacceptable. When I found out it had happened, I denied it, I failed to protect myself in _any_ way. I should have either stuck to my decision or made a new one. I did neither, I just did the ostrich thing. It's the _denial_ and retreat from responsibility that is the character defect I need to work on.

Absolutely :-) Am I making sense so far?

Mike :-)
p.s. I don't want to see no ostrich avatar suddenly popping up under my name! You know who you are * lol *

frankly

I know just bury the broccli in sand!

I've got to call you on the character defect thing. I think your character is in tact. There are no defects just room for improvement in your recovery program. And we will all have room for improvement for the rest of our lives. Perfection is imposible.

So just to give you something to ponder on. Why would you see yourself as having a character defect when you are doing everything in your power to better your life? That just jumped out at me and made my forhead wrinkle.

Ms B

wraybear

Mike, you said... "My need to be loved, accepted and cherished is so great, that it overwhelms all my other needs and leaves me vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. Such as getting my boundaries shattered."

Well, I am right there with ya! My AH, who I know loves me as much as he is capable of, but it just isn't what I had in mind those 15 years ago when we got married. He used to SHOW his love to me by his actions. There haven't been any actions for many years. He used to cherish me and i really believe he would have died for me. Not now. It is a sad situation when you realize your spouse is incapable of showing us the love that we know they were once capable of showing. In my case it is because he USED TO DO IT, so I know he has it in him, but the addiction took over. So, I have to depend on God to fulfill all my love needs. It works sometimes, maybe with more work, it will work all the time. With our addicts, it's all about them. And thank God, we can work on all our "defects" "shortcomings" "dependencies" regardless of that they do.

Take care.

DesertEyes

Hi there Ms. B :-)

hmmm... yes, well said, we seek spiritual progress not spiritual perfection.

I think it's just a terminoloy mis-match. Failing to follow thru on promises is a common characteristic of active alcoholics. In the program of AA we refer to these characteristics as "character defects" which are corrected as a result of working our program of recovery. An alcoholic who is in recovery only makes promises they can keep, and then follows thru on them.

A boundary is a promise I make to myself. That I will protect my own needs by taking certain actions. When I fail to follow thru on my promise I am failing to work my AA program of recovery and I need to take action, which I am doing by asking questions at Al-Anon meetings and posting on this forum.

Since it is clear to me that I am failing to keep my boundaries, failing to decide whether to keep them, change them, flex them. Just plain failing to face the responsibility of making a decision one way or another, I am in need of a little work in my recovery, both as an alkie _and_ as a codie. My two diseases intermix here :-)

Yes, I am doing everything in my power to better my life. But I have let one thing slide; being trustworthy to myself :-) My grandpappy sponsor would have me sit down and do an inventory on this issue like yesterday :-) Which is what I am starting by asking a lot of questions :-)

Why thank you, you are so sweet to be concerned for me :-)

* LMAO *

Pleeeeeese don't be giving her any ideas!!!!!


Mike :-)

DesertEyes

Hi there wraybear :-)

You bring tears to my eyes with that. Our marriage was wonderful most of our 19yrs, and it has somehow faded just the way you describe.

Yes, it is those memories that cause me the greatest pain. Remembering all the good times we had, that I hope we can still have.

Your faith is admirable. I have nowhere near your strength. I have neglected myself far beyond exhaustion. Reading your post gives me hope, thanx for sharing.

Yes indeed. I'm working on mine. Baby steps, as they say :-)

thanx

Mike :-)

dreamcatcher

I don't think there is any hurt like having your spouse be unfaithful. We talk about boundries, forgiveness, stretching our boundries. What about values,morales,respect and marriage being sacred? When a spouse allows another to come in intimately that is a huge violation. The deniel on our part is because of the disease and the excuses for the behavior. I have to ask myself can I be with someone whose values have become so scewed disease or not. I stuck it out 23 years and have to come to realize this isn't the same person anymore. My core values will never change and the hurt will only continue if I dont' respect who I am. Its seems you are a person with good morale character and a solid foundation that has taken years to build. Be careful not to undue to many of those characteristics or you will find yourself a lost soul, feeling very empty inside. These values were formed in you as a child and have taken years to develop. I wish you well and may God keep you strong in your foundation. DON"T LOSE SIGHT OF WHO YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!

DesertEyes

Hi dreamcatcher,

Thank you for your kind words and support :-)

You're right. That's why it's so important for me to understand my boundaries and be in control of where I put them. When I give up that control I am giving up my self.

Thank you for the compliments and for your prayers. I am taking good care of myself and working my program. Soon as I get a job I'm moving out and starting over.

Mike :-)