Some Less Commonly Talked About Symptoms of Codependence
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Some Less Commonly Talked About Symptoms of Codependence
So, the first book I found on codependence that really got through to me was Pia Mellody’s “Facing Codependence.” I didn’t relate to a lot of the standard internet information on codependence (including not having any significant childhood trauma to “trigger” the patterns! Which I found out later can be totally normal, the patterns can be “inherited” from parents who are codependent, until someone decides to break the generational cycle…) But this book’s description really stood out for me, and made a lot of things make sense in my own behavior, and the behavior of my family.
So, from the book: “The Five Core Symptoms of Codependence”
1. Difficulty Experiencing Appropriate Levels of Self-Esteem
Healthy self-esteem is the internal experience of one’s own preciousness and value as a person. Healthy people know that they are valuable even when they make a mistake. Codependents experience difficulty with self-esteem at one or both of two extremes: Low self-esteem or Arrogance/Grandiosity. The former is simple, they see themselves as worth less than others. Arrogance and Grandiosity are more layered. One situation that triggers this can be a very critical household where as children they were frequently criticized and shamed, and only escaped feelings of being “less-than” by similarly judging and criticizing others (often holding everyone to unreasonable standards of perfection). Another situation can be a dysfunctional family system that teaches their children that they are superior to other people, giving them a false sense of power, and not helping children acknowledge and take responsibility for their own imperfection.
Both extremes make it very difficult to have a healthy relationship with a Higher Power (low self-esteem: we feel unworthy of a relationship with our Higher Power, grandiosity: we/our family becomes our Higher Power). And both result in “other-esteem” based on external things or responses from people.
2. Difficulty Setting Functional Boundaries
We often discuss the tendency for codependents to have no boundaries! But dysfunctional boundaries can include having “walls” instead of boundaries where we completely refuse to let anyone in, having only partial boundaries where we have some functional boundaries in specific situations and then some complete blindspots, and having unpredictable switches from absolutely no boundaries to fortress walls and back again.
Boundaries are described as having three purposes: 1) to keep people from coming into our space and abusing us, 2) to keep us from going into the space of others and abusing them, 3) to give each of us a way to embody our sense of “who we are.” If we struggle with a complete lack of boundaries, we may also struggle with properly perceiving others’ boundaries and may overstep bounds without meaning to. Or we may become so fixed in our “walls” that we have no flexibility or vulnerability, impeding our ability to have healthy relationships.
3. Difficulty Owning Our Own Reality
Codependents often report that they don’t know who they are. To experience ourselves, we have to be able to be aware of and acknowledge out “reality.” Sometimes, we know what our reality is but we don’t feel safe or able to communicate it out of fear that it is unacceptable. Or sometimes we don’t even know what our own reality is.
Most simply, this typically happens from growing up in an environment where were taught in some way (being ignored, attacked, overruled, or abandoned when we tried to express our reality) that it is not safe to have our own perception of reality and to express it to others.
4. Difficulty Acknowledging and Meeting our Own Needs and Wants and Being Interdependent with Others
Each of us has basic needs and individual wants that are our responsibility to satisfy. No human is truly independent, some of our basic needs do require help from others to meet, and it is the responsibility of a healthy adult to ask for help when help is truly needed.
The stereotypical description of a codependent person in media or online is someone who is “too dependent”—who knows their needs and wants but expects others to take care of them for that person.
But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is also being “antidependent/counterdependent”—a person who is able to acknowledge they have needs and wants, but will only try to meet them themselves, and is unable or unwilling to accept help or guidance from anyone else. This person would rather go without the thing needed or wanted than be vulnerable and ask for help.
There is being “needless and wantless”—where a person has needs and wants, but is not aware of them.
And there is “getting needs and wants confused”—where a person struggles to see the difference between what they want and what they truly need. Often this person will try to address underlying needs by pursuing their wants (like buying clothes they want, when they actually need physical nurturing, for example).
Again, our pattern is likely based on our experiences trying to have our needs met before, usually in childhood. Was everything taken care of for us? Or was no one able or willing to help us when we needed it? Even worse, were we somehow punished for expressing needs and wants and asking for help? Were we given things we want, but never what we need? You guys get it
5. Difficulty Experiencing and Expressing Our Reality Moderately
Phew! Thanks for making it this far. This one is probably the trickiest to explain. But if you’ve ever been called a “drama queen” or “too emotional” or on the other extreme “too cold” or “distant” or “eerily calm” you’ve probably experienced this. Codependents struggle with moderation being totally involved or totally detached, totally happy or totally miserable, etc. Whether physically, emotionally, mentally, or behaviorally.
If our caregivers in life operated in extremes (like many addicts do) we may have absorbed those extreme behaviors, or find ourselves reacting to them in kind. Even trying to do the polar opposite will often lead us to an equal and opposite extreme. Alternatively, if we were ignored or neglected in substantial ways, we may have internalized a need to exaggerate our behaviors and feelings to be heard and noticed.
Lastly, “carried” or “induced” emotions are feelings that have either been transferred from someone else to us or transferred from our past to the present. Think like Electrical Circuit Theory. When an alternating current is passed through a coil, it will actually induce a current in a second coil that is just in close proximity to the first. Since these emotions are not truly authentic to our current selves and situations, they feel overwhelming to our body and brains. They aren’t ours but they feel like our own, and we don’t know how to make sense of it. It’s a completely disruptive and confusing feeling that makes it hard to have a moderate response. Our own emotions, while they can be very intense, will not trigger the same feelings of overwhelm as ones we have absorbed from outside of ourselves. It’s especially bad when we have a caregiver who cannot acknowledge and take responsibility for their own reality (feelings/actions/etc), and essentially passes on their intense emotions without any context or boundaries to the child, who then feels pressured to take on those feelings as their own, even at the cost of overriding the child’s own true emotions.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Basically, children are inherently valuable, vulnerable, imperfect, dependent, and immature. It’s totally normal to be born with these attributes. Functional caregivers help children develop each characteristic properly, so they arrive in adulthood as mature, functional adults who feel good about themselves. When these traits don’t develop functionally, they can turn into the correlated symptoms above.
But also, we can absolutely replace these thought- and behavior-patterns! That’s why we learn about them, right? To overwrite them with ones that we like better and move us closer to the life we want. It’s not really about the people who may have triggered these patterns in us, it’s about us. What we want moving forward, and how we can get it. <3
So, from the book: “The Five Core Symptoms of Codependence”
1. Difficulty Experiencing Appropriate Levels of Self-Esteem
Healthy self-esteem is the internal experience of one’s own preciousness and value as a person. Healthy people know that they are valuable even when they make a mistake. Codependents experience difficulty with self-esteem at one or both of two extremes: Low self-esteem or Arrogance/Grandiosity. The former is simple, they see themselves as worth less than others. Arrogance and Grandiosity are more layered. One situation that triggers this can be a very critical household where as children they were frequently criticized and shamed, and only escaped feelings of being “less-than” by similarly judging and criticizing others (often holding everyone to unreasonable standards of perfection). Another situation can be a dysfunctional family system that teaches their children that they are superior to other people, giving them a false sense of power, and not helping children acknowledge and take responsibility for their own imperfection.
Both extremes make it very difficult to have a healthy relationship with a Higher Power (low self-esteem: we feel unworthy of a relationship with our Higher Power, grandiosity: we/our family becomes our Higher Power). And both result in “other-esteem” based on external things or responses from people.
2. Difficulty Setting Functional Boundaries
We often discuss the tendency for codependents to have no boundaries! But dysfunctional boundaries can include having “walls” instead of boundaries where we completely refuse to let anyone in, having only partial boundaries where we have some functional boundaries in specific situations and then some complete blindspots, and having unpredictable switches from absolutely no boundaries to fortress walls and back again.
Boundaries are described as having three purposes: 1) to keep people from coming into our space and abusing us, 2) to keep us from going into the space of others and abusing them, 3) to give each of us a way to embody our sense of “who we are.” If we struggle with a complete lack of boundaries, we may also struggle with properly perceiving others’ boundaries and may overstep bounds without meaning to. Or we may become so fixed in our “walls” that we have no flexibility or vulnerability, impeding our ability to have healthy relationships.
3. Difficulty Owning Our Own Reality
Codependents often report that they don’t know who they are. To experience ourselves, we have to be able to be aware of and acknowledge out “reality.” Sometimes, we know what our reality is but we don’t feel safe or able to communicate it out of fear that it is unacceptable. Or sometimes we don’t even know what our own reality is.
Most simply, this typically happens from growing up in an environment where were taught in some way (being ignored, attacked, overruled, or abandoned when we tried to express our reality) that it is not safe to have our own perception of reality and to express it to others.
4. Difficulty Acknowledging and Meeting our Own Needs and Wants and Being Interdependent with Others
Each of us has basic needs and individual wants that are our responsibility to satisfy. No human is truly independent, some of our basic needs do require help from others to meet, and it is the responsibility of a healthy adult to ask for help when help is truly needed.
The stereotypical description of a codependent person in media or online is someone who is “too dependent”—who knows their needs and wants but expects others to take care of them for that person.
But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is also being “antidependent/counterdependent”—a person who is able to acknowledge they have needs and wants, but will only try to meet them themselves, and is unable or unwilling to accept help or guidance from anyone else. This person would rather go without the thing needed or wanted than be vulnerable and ask for help.
There is being “needless and wantless”—where a person has needs and wants, but is not aware of them.
And there is “getting needs and wants confused”—where a person struggles to see the difference between what they want and what they truly need. Often this person will try to address underlying needs by pursuing their wants (like buying clothes they want, when they actually need physical nurturing, for example).
Again, our pattern is likely based on our experiences trying to have our needs met before, usually in childhood. Was everything taken care of for us? Or was no one able or willing to help us when we needed it? Even worse, were we somehow punished for expressing needs and wants and asking for help? Were we given things we want, but never what we need? You guys get it
5. Difficulty Experiencing and Expressing Our Reality Moderately
Phew! Thanks for making it this far. This one is probably the trickiest to explain. But if you’ve ever been called a “drama queen” or “too emotional” or on the other extreme “too cold” or “distant” or “eerily calm” you’ve probably experienced this. Codependents struggle with moderation being totally involved or totally detached, totally happy or totally miserable, etc. Whether physically, emotionally, mentally, or behaviorally.
If our caregivers in life operated in extremes (like many addicts do) we may have absorbed those extreme behaviors, or find ourselves reacting to them in kind. Even trying to do the polar opposite will often lead us to an equal and opposite extreme. Alternatively, if we were ignored or neglected in substantial ways, we may have internalized a need to exaggerate our behaviors and feelings to be heard and noticed.
Lastly, “carried” or “induced” emotions are feelings that have either been transferred from someone else to us or transferred from our past to the present. Think like Electrical Circuit Theory. When an alternating current is passed through a coil, it will actually induce a current in a second coil that is just in close proximity to the first. Since these emotions are not truly authentic to our current selves and situations, they feel overwhelming to our body and brains. They aren’t ours but they feel like our own, and we don’t know how to make sense of it. It’s a completely disruptive and confusing feeling that makes it hard to have a moderate response. Our own emotions, while they can be very intense, will not trigger the same feelings of overwhelm as ones we have absorbed from outside of ourselves. It’s especially bad when we have a caregiver who cannot acknowledge and take responsibility for their own reality (feelings/actions/etc), and essentially passes on their intense emotions without any context or boundaries to the child, who then feels pressured to take on those feelings as their own, even at the cost of overriding the child’s own true emotions.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Basically, children are inherently valuable, vulnerable, imperfect, dependent, and immature. It’s totally normal to be born with these attributes. Functional caregivers help children develop each characteristic properly, so they arrive in adulthood as mature, functional adults who feel good about themselves. When these traits don’t develop functionally, they can turn into the correlated symptoms above.
But also, we can absolutely replace these thought- and behavior-patterns! That’s why we learn about them, right? To overwrite them with ones that we like better and move us closer to the life we want. It’s not really about the people who may have triggered these patterns in us, it’s about us. What we want moving forward, and how we can get it. <3
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Originally Posted by sage1969 
I prefer this approach to understanding codependency, this feels like it makes more sense. I'd have to agree that I also see all of these behaviors in myself as learnt behaviors from early childhood.
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Originally Posted by PeacefulWater12
Thank you for sharing this, I see myself in it.
The word that strikes me most is "extremes", everything is so exhaustingly extreme.
I am working to be in the healthy, comfortable middle.
The word that strikes me most is "extremes", everything is so exhaustingly extreme.
I am working to be in the healthy, comfortable middle.
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edoering......I don't know if the following video applies to you----but, I thought you might find it interesting.....?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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i found this thread so helpful. Thank you so much edoering!
There are so many misconceptions that this only happens to women, with alcoholic or abusive men, but I am an older guy and have had most of these issues my entire life. They definitely got worse after 45, and I'm 66 now. I had a really messed up, chaotic childhood with multiple caregivers, loss of my older sister when I was 4, and absent, alcoholic father. My problems are mostly with relationships - my career was successful because of course I never said no, and always exceeded expectations.
But in relationships I am classic ACOA - have a very hard time setting boundaries and asking for what I need, or saying no, or being vulnerable. I tend to jump into them, then I get steamrolled or emotionally abused, because of course the women I am attracted to are often emotionally needy but also demanding and aggressive, sometimes even emotionally abusive. I suspect they see me coming a mile away. Despite that, I often find it hard to leave, and feel tremendous guilt, not wanting to disappoint the other person. I blame myself for all of it.
i'm a caregiver too, currently helping support my younger brother and a single mom that I dated for several years. I supported my long term gf before that also.. I know that just enables people to be more dependent, but I have to help. I have spent a considerable amount of time in therapy to little avail because I know what's wrong but I can't take action to stop. I have also drank alcohol most of my life, although not really excessively, just regularly.. mostly to quell my emotional swings, as well as huge disappointment with myself and my personal relationships.
So thank you again. That information, and your excellent interpretation, helped me.
There are so many misconceptions that this only happens to women, with alcoholic or abusive men, but I am an older guy and have had most of these issues my entire life. They definitely got worse after 45, and I'm 66 now. I had a really messed up, chaotic childhood with multiple caregivers, loss of my older sister when I was 4, and absent, alcoholic father. My problems are mostly with relationships - my career was successful because of course I never said no, and always exceeded expectations.
But in relationships I am classic ACOA - have a very hard time setting boundaries and asking for what I need, or saying no, or being vulnerable. I tend to jump into them, then I get steamrolled or emotionally abused, because of course the women I am attracted to are often emotionally needy but also demanding and aggressive, sometimes even emotionally abusive. I suspect they see me coming a mile away. Despite that, I often find it hard to leave, and feel tremendous guilt, not wanting to disappoint the other person. I blame myself for all of it.
i'm a caregiver too, currently helping support my younger brother and a single mom that I dated for several years. I supported my long term gf before that also.. I know that just enables people to be more dependent, but I have to help. I have spent a considerable amount of time in therapy to little avail because I know what's wrong but I can't take action to stop. I have also drank alcohol most of my life, although not really excessively, just regularly.. mostly to quell my emotional swings, as well as huge disappointment with myself and my personal relationships.
So thank you again. That information, and your excellent interpretation, helped me.
sage
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 704
I'm bumping this because I am really struggling right now. It's 100% due to these developmental deficiencies as a small child in an alcoholic household, and it's so hard to learn these now.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
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Originally Posted by sage1969
I'm bumping this because I am really struggling right now. It's 100% due to these developmental deficiencies as a small child in an alcoholic household, and it's so hard to learn these now.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
Sage, I have several "distracting" hobbies and habits that have served me well over the years in times like these. Most recent I have taken up paint by numbers and diamond painting, but old stand-bys include jigsaw puzzles and coloring. Something about engaged in activites focused around colors and putting things together/in order occupies a part of my mind that is easily distracted/tends towards anxiety, and allows me to process deeper feelings about whatever issues are brewing, old or new.
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Originally Posted by sage1969
I'm bumping this because I am really struggling right now. It's 100% due to these developmental deficiencies as a small child in an alcoholic household, and it's so hard to learn these now.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
The topmost layer is that I've been in the direct path of a smoke plume for weeks and with the fire severity the AQI is vascilating between 300 - 900. I have asthma so any movement at all is miserable; I can't really keep busy by doing things around the house. Normally I can read several books a day but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind focused.
Of course, the underlying issues are that the more I try to cope and distract myself, the harder it becomes because I really don't have robust self - esteem and without connection to being outdoors my reality is extremely shaky. Knowing this and finding a way to overcome it are two different things.
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Join Date: May 2015
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Offering a link to online jigsaws at https://thejigsawpuzzles.com/ - I like to do these while listening to old radio comedies or P.G. Wodehouse stories read aloud on YouTube
I do hope the end is in sight for the fires and that the air quality improves.
I do hope the end is in sight for the fires and that the air quality improves.
sage
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 704
Thank you for all your suggestions. I did as much as I could to distract myself, online colouring, online puzzles, reading, breathing.
I've many hobbies, but found myself becoming obsessive in how I did them, and so I'm taking a break from all of them and only adding back in what feels healthy.
I also am somewhat embarrassed to admit that though yes, I'm still having some severe breathing issues (staying indoors, running my AC, using my inhalers), I was having a bit of crisis around my own self - identity, also made worse by detoxing off a medication I'd been taking for years for neuropathy. That was unintentional -- I'd been ill enough that I'd not kept track of when I'd taken my medication, and yesterday I counted out the days on a calendar and realised what I'd done. I had actually intended to taper off it with my doctor's guidance at some point.
I think I'm so clear on what my boundaries need to be and it takes one little thing like this to realise I've got further to go. It is also a really clear reminder for me to be so much more careful about what medications I accept from my doctor, and where I need to be a better and more educated self - advocate.
I've many hobbies, but found myself becoming obsessive in how I did them, and so I'm taking a break from all of them and only adding back in what feels healthy.
I also am somewhat embarrassed to admit that though yes, I'm still having some severe breathing issues (staying indoors, running my AC, using my inhalers), I was having a bit of crisis around my own self - identity, also made worse by detoxing off a medication I'd been taking for years for neuropathy. That was unintentional -- I'd been ill enough that I'd not kept track of when I'd taken my medication, and yesterday I counted out the days on a calendar and realised what I'd done. I had actually intended to taper off it with my doctor's guidance at some point.
I think I'm so clear on what my boundaries need to be and it takes one little thing like this to realise I've got further to go. It is also a really clear reminder for me to be so much more careful about what medications I accept from my doctor, and where I need to be a better and more educated self - advocate.
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Sage, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. You probably already have this information, but I thought I would post it just in case:
.
https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quali...ir-quality-iaq
.
- If you have a central HVAC system, find out if it has a fresh air intake. If it does, find out how to close it or turn the system to recirculate mode. Make sure the HVAC filter is in good condition, fits snugly in the filter slot, and is replaced as recommended by the manufacturer. Consider upgrading to a MERV 13 or higher rated filter if your system can accommodate it.
https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quali...ir-quality-iaq
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And I will mention once again that a standalone HEPA air purifier used in the home (or bedroom) really works. Something like the Honeywell. I'm not sure about some of these newer ones that do it electronically but my old fashioned round Honeywell that sucks the air in the room through a HEPA filter works a treat. I am using it right now to keep my house free from mold spores while I repair a leak in a wall. It works for smoke, air pollution and especially effective on animal dander.
I want to also add that I also struggled with exercise-induced asthma for decades. It was not bad where I grew up and lived on the San Francisco peninsula due to proximity to the fresh air blowing in from the ocean year round. But it was horrible in Sacramento and kind of bad in the Willamette Valley of Oregon due to pollen and mold spores. I would have to use an inhaler before my run or bike ride as a preventative measure or I would get wheezing. I don't like having to use a corticosteroid. Even worse are the ones that you use all the time like Flonase, which can cause bone-thinning.
Anyway, I finally moved here to the Tucson foothills, and have not had to use an inhaler of any sort for over a year. I cycle really hard several times a week but there are simply no issues because the air is free of allergens and low on air pollution. And no smoke either. So there are places where we don't need to keep medicating ourselves. Probably others too. Just passing on what I know and have experienced.
I want to also add that I also struggled with exercise-induced asthma for decades. It was not bad where I grew up and lived on the San Francisco peninsula due to proximity to the fresh air blowing in from the ocean year round. But it was horrible in Sacramento and kind of bad in the Willamette Valley of Oregon due to pollen and mold spores. I would have to use an inhaler before my run or bike ride as a preventative measure or I would get wheezing. I don't like having to use a corticosteroid. Even worse are the ones that you use all the time like Flonase, which can cause bone-thinning.
Anyway, I finally moved here to the Tucson foothills, and have not had to use an inhaler of any sort for over a year. I cycle really hard several times a week but there are simply no issues because the air is free of allergens and low on air pollution. And no smoke either. So there are places where we don't need to keep medicating ourselves. Probably others too. Just passing on what I know and have experienced.
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