NewHeart

I was listening to Codependent no More which is truly a great book. I hear my story in every line.

What really stuck out for me was the parts about ruminating and anxiety. Believing one will never find a real relationship and Waiting around for others to make you feel like you have a purpose.

It stuck out to me as I was not only dating an alcoholic which was incredibly painful for me to leave but I was ruminating and controlling about my future. I am terrified to the point of having daily anxiety about never getting married and having a kid which would mean I was lonely and a loser. Listening to the book I realized mentally (but I still have the fear) that I was trying to control the negative emotions by controlling the outcome. I cannot let go of outcomes and I have been here many times before.

When I graduated undergraduate and couldn't find a good job I ruminated on being a loser and beat the hell out of myself and compared myself to all my peers who had a good job. I beat myself up about studying humanities. I didn't feel like I got past that until I graduated grad school and got my first real job years later. During that time I stayed in a relationship with a man who ignored me and cheated on me, tried to have sex with my sister and I felt trapped because I had given him my word. I kept on trying to fix the outcome of him being a good man who would marry me.

I feel that my extreme fixation on marriage and kids is me trying to fix the outcome of my life. I really just want life to unfold. I want to dream but let go of dreams if they don't work, are unrealistic, or unhealthy and still love me. But I'm telling myself I am not loveable until I have the white picket fence. I don't want to live in limbo and anxiety like I did with my job situation for years.

I'm also realizing that I am fixating on stereotypical values about being a woman and sacrificing for others and being dependent and having people who are dependent on me as being the greatest sources of love and self worth. I am seeking out people who will reinforce that...for example my long term Christian therapist who told me the greatest love of all time were kids and that the way to become an adult was to be a parent. I am a part of a hippy crunchy homebirth group where women breast feed until 5 years old. These things aren't wrong but its like Im seeking out that which stresses me out to ruminate on and beat myself up about.

I think I have become controlling around trying to find love again. I signed up for two dating apps. I hated the process especially because it felt forced and rushed. I started to pressure myself into liking these men even though I had no attraction and the majority felt desperate or dramatically socially awkward. I really just want to focus on the 12 step program and grieving my last relationship but the co dependent voice came up and said...hurry up you are not getting any younger. I'm angry that I didn't start this process at 27 and that I got involved in my last relationship and wasted time. Each day I don't have a boyfriend feels like another day wasted of not trading my youth for a relationship. I read Settle for Mr. Good Enough which is based on that whole idea that one has to get married by 33 because statistically one's chances of marriage dramatically decrease. Then friends are telling me how hard it is to get pregnant past 35. Every activity that does nit lead to meeting a man I reject even if it is something I would like to do. I do have men who want to go out on dates with me but a big part of me also wants to be left alone and just heal but as I said before trying to slow down and relax a wave of anxiety hits me and I feel like I need to work towards the outcome I want. My mother and sponsor tell me to let life unfold and God will present the right person to me but I ruminate on aging without marriage and losing my value as a woman and forever feeling the way I do now.

Codependent No More reminds me that this is not related to the external world and it is my internal world which is causing these feelings. It's not what happens but how you react. Intellectually I know that it is true but so much of me does not. I say ok yeah...but let me find a man and have a kid first then I will let go because then everything will be fixed in life. This constant rumination and fixing is an addiction. It is similar to alcoholism.

I don't know what I am asking. I know a lot of you had wonderful responses to this rumination about marriage and kids in my last thread but I guess I would like to know if people really healed fron this co dependency. Sometimes I feel like I am going to feel like this forever and I truly am having a hard time breaking this cycle of rumination. I don't like living like this or who it is making me become

SparkleKitty

Friend, I really healed from co-dependency.

You are not going to feel like this forever.

The greatest love of all is the one you have for yourself. It makes all other things possible, and it makes all other things which don't happen acceptable.

I had to stop chasing external validation in order to make room for liking myself, respecting myself, trusting myself, and loving myself. It was terrifying and sometimes lonely, and I would do it all over again. I don't have to, though, because the fruits of that discomfort are lifelong, and no one can take them from me.

LovelyKaya33333

Hi . I relate a lot to what you are saying … I think I’m at the beginning parts of actually healing but I feel it is happening super fast. It’s hard to explain but my perception changed somehow. I read codependent no more about 10 years ago for the first time and was really trying to not be codependent. It wasn’t until I was with my ExAH and went through the pain that I was able to say no more…it’s time for me now. I am 39 now going through a divorce without kids of my own so I relate to you. I also want to say that what helped me was to also recognize that it is perfectly ok to want to be in a relationship. It is perfectly ok if I want to have a child. Those are natural desires of our souls I believe … not everyone’s for sure but if it is than it is. I stopped giving myself the all or nothing self talk. I used to think “ok I gotta be married and have a kid to be valued”… then I went from that to “be super independent and don’t show any signs of codependency”… now I feel like “it’s ok to have desires of another and if I find someone to mesh with I would consider dating again when the time is right… maybe I could still have a child someday… maybe I will adopt… maybe I will get artificially inseminated”… I mean there are so many options… I think finding a balance helped me. I also disagree (which is not a popular opinion) that codependent behavior is quite as destructive or devastating as alcoholism. I never got in a hit and run cause I was co dependent… I never drove drunk and put other peoples lives at risk. I never didn’t make it to work… ect ect ect. I understand both need work but the outcome to me of someone ****** up on a substance and out of their mind doing dangerous behavior far outweighed the reprocussions of the decisions that were made based on my attempting to love and stay in a dysfunctional marriage. I still struggle a bit with feeling sad that my exAH is choosing to live out of his van and is still drinking. But I now realize that is his choice. He has a choice to do that in the same way I have a choice to not be around it. Romantic relationships (especially living together ones) can be tricky with codependency I have found. Marriage within itself is someone based on codependency. Typically anyway bank accounts are combined, purchases are made together, household chores are together…. Essentially the other persons decisions DO effect your well-being. For me I don’t think I will ever get married again because of this. Anyhow I’m on a tangent but I think for me anyway… balance and not judging myself for wanting things be needing them helped me a lot.

NewHeart

I particularly like your middle paragraph. I want to find my life acceptable no matter what. I am sure I would love a husband and kids if it happens but I hate the rumination and self berating and setting my life around it thay I am doing now. I feel I am chasing those things because I am told they will make me happy. I'm afraid of jumping into a bad situation again and bringing kids into a bad situation just to feel validated.

SparkleKitty. Did you deal with this specific issue around marriage and kids too? How did you move through it?

NewHeart

LovelyKaya33333,

I understand what you are saying about marriage. It is why the rational part of me wants to take my time but the fearful co dependent doesn't.

I like the gray approach and not the all or nothing approach. I have also thought about having a child on my own if I want to but I am afraid that is selfish. I want to give it a try with a man who would be a good father but if I absolutely needed to I could do it on my own. I don't think I am at the age where I need to do it on my own.

Part of me beats myself up for not thinking about this at 25 but at that age I was messed up from the addictions in my family of origin household and was terrified of having a child. It wasn't until my family of origin became healthy and I became healthier that I started to see the appeal of having my own family and that has only happened in the last few months.

I think what is painful is seeing everyone else get the white picket fence...even if I know that it isnt so rosy behind the scenes...and feeling like an outcast and lesser than as if I don't deserve ot because I am defective or made bad choices.

SparkleKitty

I dealt with the issue around marriage, but not children. Having grown up in an alcoholic/codependent home, I basically lost any maternal instinct I might have once had.

BUT, until I was 32 years old, the idea of living and being alone and not being able to see myself as anyone's "person" was paralyzing to me. My first marriage imploded because of my issues (turns out, being able to say I was someone's wife was NOT actually enough to replace the total lack of self-worth that I had been missing for so long).

Moving through it involved a lot of therapy, and a lot of trust in the fact that no matter how desperate I felt about not being in a relationship with another person, I HAD to not be in a relationship with another person. I had to have faith that no one ever DIED from being uncomfortable. I absolutely 100% had to get comfortable being by myself, and with spending time with myself, just me. I had to accept myself for who I was, not the person I envisioned I could become if only someone would love me enough.

Because there is NO ONE who can love you enough to replace loving yourself. No one. And you can love yourself without limits. ONLY you can do that.

dandylion

I have a confession to make. One hears, so often, the phrase----"Learn to love yourself" "Love yourself, first".
I don't diisagree with the basic concept.....but, I don't care for the word "love" used in this context----because I think it is too hard to relate to, in this particular context.
I feel that telling someone who does not have a well developed self concept and has not individuated (yet) or with a lagging self esteem---"Love yourself"....is just too--too--much to wrap the head around.
I think it is like telling a walrus to "learn to fly first, and then you will be able to catch good fish". That is how foreign it must feel.

What I think is a much better thing to say--and to advise---is to tell the person to "Become acquainted with yourself". I think that is much more realistic and something that the person can relate to, much easier. I believe that, by becoming familiar with one's own self---and becoming familiar enough to appreciate and acknowledge one[s unique individuality----over a long time, this will, naturally, morph into a deep regard and appreciation of the self---the thing that we can call "love".


I realize that most people will think that I am just splitting hairs. o.k. Though, I do think that, sometimes, words can make a difference

dandylion

NewHeart.....as you are studying about the Self----I suggest that it might be helpful to read up on the "Process of Individuation"
A simple google will bring up tons of material on the subject. It is a common concept in psychology about how one develops their own autonomy.

PeacefulWater12

Very interesting discussion in here. Thanks everyone.

I think if someone has co-dependency issues,. they have be worked on and healed before looking for another relationship or the whole pattern will just be repeated again. Also only alkies, drug addicts, narcs etc would be attracted to codies.

We need to be healthy ourselves to attract a healthy partner. Like attracts like.

SparkleKitty

Heh -- I hear ya, Dandy, and on most things we agree. But in this regard, I say shoot for the stars. Shoot for love. We're not here long enough to settle for less.

trailmix

It's complicated, I know. You can tell yourself all day long that what you think might not be on track and isn't helping you, but that's not easy to change, especially if it is ingrained for some reason (upbringing, trauma, neglect etc etc).

It is hard to wrap your head around "loving" yourself, I think. It was almost impossible for me. Love myself? But what about this and this and this! Finally, I got to the point where I could accept myself and in the course of doing that I learned to like myself. I think that's the first step(s), or was for me.

I don't have to "do" anything at all to accept myself, I just am who I am, I act the way I do, I look the way I look etc. I finally (after changing my negative self-talk) decided, yes, I am ok, I do accept this is who I am and I'm ok with that!

That takes a while, the negative talk is a HUGE barrier to that. All these "rules" around which you have formed your life's foundations seem a bit off base, you already know this. This is because it is a control issue, not an achievement issue, not an age or desirability issue, just control.

Honestly the first thing I would do if I were you would be to ditch your therapist (and the birthing group). The therapist's words about becoming an adult by having a child is ludicrous. I absolutely think you are right in that you are just torturing yourself with both the therapist and the other group and that's never going to lead to accepting yourself just the way you are.

Find a new therapist and how about a group that does things you enjoy? Have you tried Meetup (just google it) - tons of groups of people to do things with - hiking, cooking, live music meet ups, danding, pottery, polo matches, board game nights - anything you can think of they have a group for it. They are free, you just sign up and attend, easy. That way you get to meet all these different people that enjoy doing what you do.

Why aren't you having fun?

I can say toss all your worries aside, you can't control all those things, but I don't think that will help you? I say go after healing from that. Those are wounds, self inflicted or some you have picked up along the way, so they need to be healed. In the meantime, have fun, go out, do what you love, try new things, you can heal and enjoy yourself at the same time.

LovelyKaya33333

I usually agree with both you and Dandy....Love both your constant support and love on my posts...thank you to the both of you... But I gotta say on this one shoot for the stars. I feel like I spent almost 7 years with someone/something that was unavailable.... not just emotionally but literally drunk most days... like drunk/drunk.... So for me personally my healing began a few years ago while still with him. I have a feeling the next 6 months may still be a back and forth in my head ( for sure not with him ) I have found no contact clears things up pretty rapidly... but with having some "wait I remember his soul"....with reminders of "oh wait he lied to me all the time, he was a douche canoe and I really didn't know his soul"... but once that calms down I feel I have worked so hard on myself through this marriage that I am excited to find someone to connect with. Life is too dang short and I already spent 7 years feeling alone and ignored...Cause I was alone and ignored ...I am comfortable being alone... I was alone for over a year before I met me now exAH ... even bought a condo alone... sold a condo alone and was proud of that money I made on the flip alone that I was able to start my own company alone.... why I decided to go with a shiny drinker to partner up with is what I need to understand...but part of me feels like I already get it... and I feel pretty good.... I know in my gut I am not ready yet but I don't think it will be that long...maybe a 6 months to a year before I am ready.... mostly cause I like and have always liked being alone

NewHeart

I love your response Lovely Kaya. I feel like between the last 2 boyfriends I have spent 7 years with addiction. Can I ask you what do you think is the reason you got with him? You said you think that you figured it out.

NewHeart

oh my goodness that is amazing. Yes that back and forth is the hardest thing. Seeing my sister just get married to an addict where she feels those deep soul feelings though acts as a model of....yeah no its pity and co dependence not knowing his soul. My mother described him as a lost puppy. My sister said yeah I know. I just love him so much. I feel that addicts can have intense self pitying emotions which brings out the caretaker.

You reminding me that their emotions and thoughts change every minute and are just ******** reminds me that those intense emotions on his side or my side were not me seeing his soul and being the only one to understand him. It was me putting up with his BS. The BS that shocks people when I tell them about it and that I covered up and pretended it didn't happen during the relationship.

sage1969

This is such a good discussion! Thank you to all of you for sharing your thoughts!

I've been married twice, one ended in divorce, one with the death of my spouse, and then various relationships from a live - in to FWB . . . all of these before I really started working on my codpendency and latent addiction issues. I 100% understand that I have to be cautious with things I've felt an addiction affinity with, and I 100% consider what I do now in relation to other people, how and why I connect.

I'm not certain about codependency and marriage . . . mine were so painfully wrong that I myself would have to be so certain about a partner before I could take this step.

I realise this will sound a bit "hippy dippy," but this is how I've found spiritual meaning: my XABF is my twin flame, which has made this journey so very painful. I know I have to come to terms with not being with him during this lifetime, he has to make this journey on his own. I've let go of a soul mate also -- he was unable to interact with any honesty around his addictions. I'm not certain why I carry so much karma around addiction and codependency but it is so clear to me that the cycle has to stop with me.

Not that I personally care what people think of me, but I think it's a positive thing that our society is a lot less hung up on traditional marriage as the only acceptable way to be with a partner. For me that means I can choose what is physically, financially, emotionally, and spiritually important and necessary for me (and my children) to have a safe, comfortable, and cherished experience. I think that in recovery, this is really necessary for me to choose instead of letting people / circumstances make my choices for me.

NewHeart

Thank you SparkleKitty. Just knowing I won't feel like this forever is comforting.

NewHeart

Your post was so thoughtful I wanted time to mull over it before responding. It is all about control. What I am pinpointing as the causes of my misery are not, it's the control as you said.

I see that you emphasize about having fun and healing at the same time. I think sometimes healing looks like drudgery to me but that's just another rule.

And yes I do think I am punishing myself. Its the co dependency thing all over again trying to mold myself to others. I am going to save your response and read over it a few times more. Its very clear.

LifeRecovery

NewHeart

I was 33-34 when my relationship ended. I had wanted children but when I realized alcohol was a part of my relationship knew I did not want children in that relationship. It took me a long time to be able to shift for myself, but it was easier for me about children.

When we divorced I did not know what that meant about children. I just knew I was not ready for a relationship. I am a slow learner but I am just now feeling ready with the idea....10 years later.

A number of years after my divorce I said yes to taking in a foster dog. It is to convoluted to write here but that yes lead to may adventures including unexpected puppies and the human owner of the foster (and her son) coming to live with me. When the owner moved her son decided to stay. I call him my bonus child and it has been a mutually beneficial parental/child relationship for both of us for the last six years. He comes home next month for a short stay after serving a year in Kuwait with the National Guard.

I am not saying that my original yes to the foster was not a part of my co-dependent behavior.....(or a number of the other yeses)

I am super grateful that I said yes though. I am grateful that I could not see what that yes would lead to. I am grateful for having this relationship as it helped me to see how much I was still struggling with some co dependent behaviors and how triggered they were in this situation.

This relationship has taught me that I can be truthful, and have boundaries but that does not mean that I don't have to be kind about it.

This relationship has also given me grace to realize that I don't get to see all the puzzle pieces of my life but if I am open, create space and take care of myself I don't need to. Some deep part of me had some needs met in ways I could not have even considered, just when I was ready.

I am not saying that is what it will look like for you (or that it should). I just wanted to say that I sometimes still default to control and co-dependency but I know there are other ways now.

NewHeart

Letting go of control and trusting that there is a greater intelligence or map or god or whatever you want to call it has been very tough for me to let go to. I believe there is a HP but I still want to control the outcome on my timeline.

Are you still considering having children or you feel that this relationship with the foster parent and her son has fulfilled that for you

LifeRecovery

I don't know, and I am okay with that.

I am too old for the idea of biological children, and that is okay with me in a way that it was not previously.

I am starting to believe that I am ready for the idea of intimate relationships again. As an aside but I have feared falling into old patterns with relationships prior to this because I played a similar role with boyfriends, friends, family members etc. Some of that is shaking out right now and I am embracing it rather than fearful of it.

I would absolutely consider a non-traditional route to being a parent again fostering, adopting etc.

I trust that more will be revealed, for us both.