fauxfern

I'm new here. I've been reading discussions for a couple of weeks. I’m having a difficult time with my husband and could use some guidance. We’re in our late 40’s, no kids, married 15 years.

I’ve two questions about addiction and my anger that I’m hoping you can help me with.

1. Is it normal for addicts to go from one addictive behavior to another?
2. How do you manage anger toward someone with an addiction?

I think my husband is an alcoholic. I think he knows this but doesn’t want to admit it. His pattern has been that he’ll drink “normally” (what seems ok to me) for a period of time, then he’ll start drinking more and more often. I’ll get angry, call him out on his drinking and he’ll stop completely for a time (3 - 6 months). Then he’ll start drinking again “normally” and things will be fine for some time (up to a few years). Then the pattern will repeat again.

However, during Covid we were both drinking more than usual. His drinking escalated. It got to the point where he was drinking nearly daily. He switched from beer to liquor and was smoking pot (not new, but more than usual). I should note that he is depressed and takes medication. He’s has an increase in his depression during Covid. He connected with his medical doctor and a counselor at least twice during 2020.

So my first question, is it normal for addicts to add addictive behaviors?

He took up smoking cigarettes in 2020(at middle age! didn’t smoke before) and hid it from me. I came home early and found him smoking in the yard. He just shared that he was vaping too. He said hasn’t smoked/vaped since new year’s. He stated online gambling during Covid. He’s gambled in the past, but always got bored pretty quickly, yet he started up again during covid. It didn’t last long but it seemed compulsive for a time.

I noticed he started using porn more frequently. He’s always used porn occasional (not a huge deal for me) but it too seemed to escalate and he’d hide it. He’d have it on when he was working in the garage. It just seemed odd and not at all “sexy,” more compulsive. I never said anything because I didn’t want to shame / embarrass him.

What pushed me over the edge was finding a charge for a strip club. In our marriage strip clubs are not ok. My husband knows this, he’s said he doesn’t like strip clubs and he’s never pushed back on wanting to go. Strip clubs are a boundary I asked him not to cross years ago, he agreed, I trusted him and it’s never once come up.

Just as Covid restrictions started to relax he went out with a friend he sees infrequently. When he came home he said they went bar hopping and had a few drinks. He was home early (9pm) and wasn’t sloppy drunk. By chance, I saw a strip club charge on our bank account the next day. I confronted him and he said they wanted to go to another bar, the bar they planned to go to was closed (it is, I checked, it’s out of business) but the strip club was open so they went “just for another drink” and "I was wasted" and "didn't think about it being a strip club", "I just wanted to have a drink." He said was going to tell me but "hadn’t had a chance" (he’d talked with me 3 times since coming home).

This brings me to my second question. How do you manage your anger toward someone with an addiction?

I got very angry. Honestly, I’m still angry. I feel like he crossed a line. He broke trust and I’m not sure if I can get past this. I’m having a hard time believing that someone who's said they don’t like strip clubs could so easily walk into an all nude strip club just for a drink. I’m also having a hard time understanding how he could not tell me, unless it was something he knew he shouldn’t have done and/or something he was planning to keep secret.

I don’t know how addition works. Is it normal for someone with an alcohol addiction to move from thing to thing? Is the drinking, + gambling, + porn, + strip club behavior because of his addiction? Is keeping secrets part of addictive behavior? I do not believe that he was so drunk that evening he went to a strip club that he didn't know what he was doing.

For me, he crossed a boundary by going to a strip club. He also crossed a boundary by lying to me and breaking trust. I cannot get past this. I am angry. I’m not sure if my anger at him is justified or if I’m overreacting. How do you manage anger toward someone with an addiction? How do you set a boundary? Where is it the addiction driving behavior and where is it a choice? When do you hold firm? When do you forgive?

Currently, he's working with a counselor. I am still very angry. I told him our marriage is in trouble but right now he needs to focus on his drinking and depression. I am keeping him at an arms length, we're having superficial conversations and are quietly going about daily life. I too am working with a counselor. Honestly, this experience is making me question my marriage. We've been together nearly two decades, I love him and I don't want to make a rash decision, though I do not ever want to repeat this experience.

I appreciate any insight this community can offer. I'm trying to understand his behavior and I'm trying to figure out my own response. I'm also trying to understand this within the unusual and very stressful Covid period.

dandylion

faauxFern......wow. lol---a lot of questions. to answer them all would take many, many pages of typing. I believe that getting these questions answered is important because I believe that it starts with education. I am all for education because I believe that Knowledge is Power.
I am glad that you came here and posted because we have many sources of good information that we can recommend to you. I will list many of them, for you, below----

1. Go to the "Stickies" section, right above the regular threads. Find the section called "Classic Readings", there. This is a wonderful library of over a hundred of excellent articles that cover many of your questions. Enough for you to read and digest one every single day!
2. Go the the VERY LAST forum on the Soberrecovery website. It is called "The Best of Soberrecovery". It has another library of articles that are the best you will find, anywhere, on the effects of alcoholism on the loved ones.
3. Read the most recommended book on this forum----"Co-dependent No More" . It is easy to read and I think that sooo much will resonate with you. You can get it on amazon.com or through the local library.
4. Did you know that you are eligable to attend AA meetings?. As a Guest, you are allowed to attend certain meetings, with no expectation that you participate. On the AA schedule , these are marked as "OPEN meetings"...and "Speaker meetings". I think that this would be enormously educational for you---about the nature of alcoholism from the alcoholics perspective.
5. Seek out and attend Alanon meetings....these are specifically for you---to give you support and validation for what you are going through.
6. Don't forget that there are sooo many good videos on Youtube. Just google "Youtube videos on (fill in the blank)" ********For you, specificall, I suggest that you view some videos on "co-occuring diagnoses with alcoholism"...or, "Dual diagnoses in alcoholism". (this is because of his depression.
7. Continue with your own counselor/therapist. You can use all the help that you can get. This is too much t bear, alone,
8, suggestion---feel free to print out this response and show it to your counselor, if you would like.

Having said all of this.., I will give you a heads up. It is quite possible that you husband will not like any of these suggestions--and may be critical or defensive. He may not agree with one word of anything that you learn. SO---keep in mind, that this is not for him This is for your own understanding and education, because, you need to be fully educated about acoholism and the effects on the loved ones in order to make the best decisions for your OWN welfare.
So much of what you will need to do will be very counterintuitive to you.

To briefly answer your questions. Yes, all of the things that you mention can be seen in addictions.
How to handle your anger----following the above suggestions is a good start. There will be other posters to come along that will give you sme god suggestions.

******************************************Do you know how to go back to the beginning of the other posters' threads, and read all that they have shared---in other words----to follow each of their stories.
Go to their na me, to the left of their post. and click on their name. Then---on the drop down menu---select "all previous threads"

You are going to see your own story written, here, thousands of times.

velma929

My husband not only drank, his appetite for porn increased as well. So yeah, someone looking to distract him- or herself from reality will often do multiple things obsessively.

You have an awful lot to deal with. Sorry for what brings you here.

dustyfox

Hi Fauxfern - The kind view is that because of his addictions your husband appears unable to consider your feelings and can only focus on his own need to distract himself from his own misery through drugs and porn.
From what you've written it would seem unlikely he will just 'snap' out of it - - often addicts do not listen to their wives or husbands. You can not make him change his behaviour.
The only thing you have control over in this situation, the only thing you can change, is YOU.
You need to take stock and decide what YOU want to do.
Thinking of you - it's a really tough situation.

Gru

I myself am not the best at setting boundaries, but I'm learning a lot. A boundary is something you set for yourself. You can't set them for other people. So you have to figure out what you choose to tolerate or what you don't. I listened to a good podcast on this the other day. "Love over Addiction" podcast. It was all about figuring out your values and if you're choosing to live by them and setting boundaries. What's ok and what's not, but not shutting your eyes to what is going on. That's what I do a lot. Just shut my eyes and carry on. But there be dragons, my friend.

trailmix

Well, first of all as dandylion suggested, learning more about alcoholism will really answer a lot of the questions you have.

Manage anger toward someone with addiction? I know that in some circles people are advised to have compassion for the alcoholic and to realize it's a disease. I don't dispute that, I think compassion is great.

What's not great is if anyone thinks they need to twist themselves up and mute their feelings to cope with someone's behaviour that they either disagree with or that hurts them. That's not the message.

Having compassion and caring about him doesn't mean you need to change yourself to fit his lifestyle. Recovery, for him, is all about him and what he wants to do. He may want to quit, he may not, that's up to him.

The porn escalates, he hides it, he says he doesn't go to strip clubs but he does.

I have to wonder if the "dry" periods were truly dry or if he was just cutting down and hiding it.

I understand why you don't trust him.

velma929

As far as managing anger [frustration, disappointment] over addiction: I imagine most of us manage it fine - as long as the addict's issues don't cause problems with our lives directly. The colleague in another department who comes in late, hungover, and is whispered about is easier to have compassion for than the one WE have to cover for in our own department, and that is easier than dealing with a sibling, parent, or spouse who has to be transported when (s)he's lost a driver's license or has to have monetary support because of a job loss.

It was way easier for me to have compassion for Joe the cashier than my husband. I didn't have to live with Joe's choices.

Boundaries are about OUR OWN behavior, not rules for someone else. An example of a boundary is: "I won't live with someone who smokes or drinks....I won't enter into an open marriage."

fauxfern

Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and for sharing your thoughtful responses. I know I asked so many questions! I did a bit of a brain dump, it was a lot to throw out there, but just getting it down was helpful to me.

Thanks @dandylion for all of the information. I appreciate you directing me to other spots on this forum and other resources. This was so helpful! I've started reading though some previous posts and requested a book on co-dependency from the library. I've been looking at the schedule for Al-Anon meetings. Much appreciated!

I appreciate you helping me to think a bit more about my concept of boundaries @Gru and @velma929. I see how I've let go of things I wanted or cared about, nothing that crossed a boundary, things like going out to movies, dinner etc., but they are things that made my relationship less satisfying. Those were more about his anxiety and depression and I have greater compassion for him around that. With his drinking, I see how over time I've become complacent with this. If I'm understanding you, I've slowly let go own my own boundaries (boundaries are my own behavior), and each time he drank too much I moved the line in the sand. Honestly, I'm just now coming to think of him as an alcoholic.

In terms of compassion @trailmix and @dustyfox thanks for sharing your insight. I'm really struggling here. The line between his drinking and his depression is confusing for me. I believe he often (not always) drinks to help manage his depression. I also know that drinking ultimately results in him being more depressed. Sometimes I not sure if his drinking would be an issue if he were not depressed. Again, I'm just starting to consider that he may be an alcoholic and I am confused.

The strip club really threw me! You raise a good question @trailmix I don't know if he was hiding this behavior. I will say it seems very out of character for him, but I'm not sure if that means anything. It's so terrible to feel like I don't even know him.

I am keeping the timeframe in mind. This past year, 2020, was very hard for both of us. He had 2 significant periods of depression. When he went to the strip club it was just as business started to open and right after his vaccine. In some ways I can see this "the world's not going to end" type of revelry.

Thanks everyone for listening. I'm so new to this and grateful to be able to be able to process this here. Thanks.

trailmix

It's really hard to say because it's virtually impossible to diagnose other mental issues when someone is in active alcoholism.

As you probably know, alcohol is a depressant, so he surely isn't doing himself any favours there. The other thing is, I have read often and know that people use alcohol to self medicate, or claim to. When did they become a psychiatrist? I mean if you broke your leg, would you just drink copious amounts of rum until the pain went away?

It can just be an excuse to drink or might even seem like a good idea to alleviate stress/depression/anxiety with alcohol, but it's just not.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's easy for us to excuse a lot of behaviours, when maybe they shouldn't be dismissed so readily? Just like "celebrating" being vaccinated and going on a pub crawl and "stumbling" in to a strip club can just be an excuse. And it doesn't really matter whether it's just an excuse, it only matters how you feel about it.

The most important thing is to look out for yourself really. Do you trust him, are you happy? Is he someone you can count on? When you come home are you a bag of nerves or is your home peaceful and safe?

If not, then maybe it's time to consider him living elsewhere while he works (hard) on his recovery.

Macyc

I just read this and I wish I had awesome words of wisdom and help. I don’t. I’m not far enough a long. What you did do was help me realize just how patient I’ve been. And I don’t use that word as a positive in my favor. It’s a sickness of mine clearly. Unhealthy.

I’m not ok with strip clubs either. Neither was my husband. Supposedly. He wouldn’t stay out of them. And worse I won’t bore you with! He treated me like I was awful for not trusting him and here you are, he went once to your knowledge and that one thing ripped your trust down (rightfully so). Don’t become me.

Eauchiche

Dear Fern
I wanted to share some of my experience with you. My main addiction has been codependency. In addition, I had two other addictions: alcohol and porn.
I consider the porn addiction the most insidious of all because it is largely undetectable by close friends and family, and it is (with the exception of child porn) completely legal.
Both addictions are progressive in nature.
I consider porn to be a drug addiction too. Instead of a person ingesting substances, one gets one's own body to make dopamine and serotonin.

I spent many years self medicating and getting into unhealthy relationships that perpetrated the other addictions.

Even at this stage in my recovery, which is years of sobriety, I cannot live with another addict. I recently rented a room in my house to someone who claimed sobriety. I threw him out after his first DUI. Even in the brief time he lived here, I found myself starting to get "pulled under" by the drama that accompanies all active addicts. We were just roommates. Not even friends.

I have known other men who started with internet porn and progressed to having anonymous sex with other men. These guys did not self-identify as gay. Your husband starting to go to strip clubs is not surprising.

My last two jury summons were for cases of child pornography. I haven't read statistics, but I would bet cases of this sort are escalating due to internet porn.

To be honest, I see two addicts in your situation. The only one of the two you can fix is you. Recovery may include asking ourselves some hard questions about why we picked our mates.

If I were trying to help someone like your husband, I would have to meet under some very strict boundaries and structure, in a neutral place. I can't imagine your life right now living under the same roof and married to this man.

Sueby

[QUOTE]I mean if you broke your leg, would you just drink copious amounts of rum until the pain went away?[QUOTE]

Off topic but, so what you're saying is that isn't an effective medical practice? AH is such an authority on this and he SWEARS alcohol helps all his physical ailments... and every other ailment too. You can't be right as AH has done so many clinical trials how can I doubt at this point he isn't a subject matter expert??

Sorry, I just found this sentence quite funny!

fauxfern

Thanks for saying this. Really. I need to hear this. I need to tell myself this, too.

I've been going back and forth on being very angry and then trying to be more compassionate. I've questioned if my anger is justified or if I'm overreacting. Most days I believe I am justified in my anger. I've questioned if I'm being a "good person" or treating him the way I would wish to be treated if I were struggling. This is harder for me. I wrestle with how to consider his mental health in all of this, especially because this been such a difficult period and he had 2 significant depressive periods during this time.

I know I need to consider my own wellbeing. I keep reminding myself to "put on my own oxygen mask first."

I will say that up until this point I trusted him completely, no question or lingering doubt in my mind. I felt very happy in my marriage. We often told one another how lucky we felt to be together. I felt like we were friends too, not just romantic partners, and that's really important to me.

The lying, being sneaky and keeping secrets feels like something a teenager would do with their mother, not what friends would do to one another. I really hate this dynamic.

fauxfern

Thanks for sharing your personal experience and perspective with me. I cannot say I understand everything, but I'm listening and trying to learn. My interpretation is that you see me as codependent and addicted to that behavior. Am I understanding you correctly? I believe you're also sharing that recover will include my considering how I've come to chose my husband. Is that an accurate understanding of what you are sharing?

Honestly, I'm not sure of my role in this. Maybe I am codependent. Again, this is new and I am learning.

I will say I do not wish to be a "care taker" or to "fix" anything. But, I know that when he is depressed I will take on more responsibility. I will be more forgiving or less likely to anger. I don't do that when he is drinking. I feel like I can hold firm line or be angry or direct with him on my feelings around his drinking.

I know I do this because I am looking at drinking as a choice he makes and depression as a chronic illness that he was born with. I see drinking as something he controls and depression as something outside of his control (he takes medication and work with heath care pros). Intellectually I understand alcoholism is a chronic disease, but I haven't quite come to a place where I see his drinking as being driven my a chronic disease.

fauxfern

Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry you've had a similar experience and its good to feel like I'm not the only one. I appreciate you sharing.

You know, I work on being patient. I meditate on it. I see it as a strength.

Some of what I am hearing and reading feels counter-intuitive to me. Maybe that's part of the process.

trailmix

That may be (and this is just an idea) because you are focusing so much on him, his problems, his alcoholism, his depression. What about you?

Alcoholism (and indeed many mental illnesses) can become the center of your life, the tornado you live in. It just is. Where you can slip in to codependency is when you start believing you have any control over the alcoholism, you don't. You didn't Cause it, can't Control and can't Cure it (the 3 c's).

Your Husband will put down the drink for good the moment he chooses to and not a moment before, no matter how calm or angry or compassionate you are, it just doesn't matter. His relationship is with alcohol, when you step in, you are just an annoyance, an enemy really to that most important relationship.

You mentioned in your post that he goes from drinking rather normally, to spiralling out of control. What is "normal" drinking for him?

While alcoholism can be described as a disease or an illness or a mental illness, it's very difficult, once a person crosses the line, from being just a "drinker" to being an alcoholic, to quit. The compulsion to drink is just as strong as our need to eat, for example. It changes the brain. Pleasure centers don't work the way they once did, he may find "sober" life pretty damn boring in comparison now. But the bottom line that compulsion, need to drink is huge and to stop an alcoholic must be willing to do whatever it takes.

Also, once you cross that line in to alcoholism, there is no going back. An alcoholic will be one forever. The only solution is to never drink again (by getting in to recovery which means working on all the issues).

He lied about the strip bars and porn, he is probably lying about the drinking too, I think that's a realistic conclusion.

HardLessons

His story about ending up in a strip club just to get a drink but didnt think about it being a strip club seems pretty lame to me. No one goes to a strip club for the drinks. Yes drinks can be part of the action, but you dont go there for the drinks.

He didnt tell you about this until after you confronted him. Based on all that he hides & his love of porn, I doubt it was his first trip to the strip club.

Eauchiche

I don’t wish to be unkind to you at all by what I suggested. Really, only you can decide if you’re codependent or not.
However, getting angry with the addict and trying to cure them are codependent behaviors.
I personally think of codependency as an addiction while others may not. I still have to exercise great care to not get pulled into unhealthy relationships and I have years of sobriety.

fauxfern

This is helpful to read. Thank you. This helps.

I believe I understand this, that his choice to drink or not to drink is his choice. I think, on my best days, I can take a step back. Not always. It's easier when I'm not so hurt or shocked, for example finding out about the strip club, because that's when I have a greater emotional investment response. It's also easier when he is not depressed.

What I think of as "normal' drinking for him is (1) 2 beers with a burger at the local bar on a weeknight, (2) splitting a bottle of wine with me for Saturday night dinner, and (3) possible having 2-3 drinks with friends after a game (watching or playing). He might get what I would consider "drunk" 1 - 2 times a month, typically on a weekend (almost never a weeknight). With "normal" drinking he's not drinking and driving and he's not missing work due to drinking.

This "normal" drinking is not just about the amount but also about the situation. Drinking would be while doing something, an activity, such as seeing friends, going out to eat, time with me, sports, would be the primary thing and the drinking would be a part of the activity but not the purpose of the activity. I'm not sure if that matters, but its a change I noticed when he started drinking more.

During Covid drinking became the activity. There was no other thing. For about 6 months his drinking was still moderate, more than usual but not concerning to me. Truthfully, I too was drinking more than usual during this time. Then he had two friends pass away and a family member get sick. He became depressed and the drinking escalated to nearly daily. He was missing work due to hangovers as well as depression. Then beer got swapped out for whiskey. Then a second depressive episode. Then I noticed the porn. Then the strip club.

Interesting. His pattern has been drinking "normally" for lengths of time (months to years), then his drinking escalates. We might have a fight about it or he'll recognize he's starting to feel depressed or he's even noticed he's getting a "beer belly" and he'll stop drinking completely for a period (months). Then, drinking starts up again slowly.

I'm not sure about this. He said he didn't tell me about smoking cigarettes because he felt ashamed. I think he kept the porn secret because he felt ashamed or didn't want to hurt me (I'm speculating, we haven't talked in depth on this). He's never once been ashamed of his drinking. He could hide his drinking, I'm not saying it's out of the question, but I don't see a reason for him to do that. It's already on the table, so to speak. It's not new to our marriage, not new to what we've talked about together.

I also think alcohol and drugs are part of his identity. He started drinking and smoking pot as a teen. He's the "fun guy," the guy who can handle a drink and knows how to party.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight. This is immensely helpful for me. I'm less in my head, less alone and angry and I'm learning. I really do appreciate it.

fauxfern

I'm not offended. I apologize if I came off that way. I didn't take your comment to be unkind in the least. I appreciate what you shared and I'm reading, thinking, reflecting and trying to learn. At this point I'm not even sure what it means to be codependent.

I'm angry. That is very true.

I'm not sure that I'm angry at him for drinking. I'm worried about his drinking. I'm disappointed in him for choosing drinking as an activity. I'm very concerned about how his drinking is impacting his mental health.

I am angry at him for going to a strip club. I am angry at him for lying and being secretive. I am angry at him for blaming this decision on his "wanting one more drink" and "being drunk."

I'm not sure if this makes a difference.