Macyc

Hi all,

I’ve had a good several days, peaceful, present, relaxed, joyful and fun. Maybe my brain is taking over like “wait a minute, that’s too long, cycle must resume” or so I’m telling myself because today, it’s been rough. Anxious, questioning and even maybe trying to back pedal, I’m not sure.

yes, ah is abusive. Not always physically. Hardly at all has it been physical. The physical acts were few and far between. The emotional part is the worst. Always has been. Physical acts were only when he was drunk and I don’t blame the drinking. I think it gave him an excuse to act out physically. The emotional aspect is present regardless. Today, I’ve been thinking maybe it’s me? Things like..... he is sober. He says he’s trying to do better and be better. He says it’s time to move forward and have a happy life. Maybe he’s right. Maybe it’s me who can’t do that, whose living in the past and not putting it to rest. All I wanted was to have a conversation about some repeated behaviors of his during his drinking years. But doing that brings about all his abusive behaviors..... justifying, blaming, rewriting reality, and so on. I mean sure, he also throws out some kind of apology after doing all that. Like a general one “I’ve said I was sorry for anything that’s hurt you, it isn’t good enough for you” he says.

I don’t require that he list out his cheating and admit to each one. But I’d like to know he recognizes how hurtful that is and why I should believe it won’t happen anymore. Sober or not. If he’s not remorseful, if he can’t articulate or communicate such a thing, how can I feel any amount of comfort in the idea that maybe it can be different or maybe he gets it.

on the other hand, maybe I am holding on to the past and not letting him show me. I don’t know how to let him show me without clearing the air with some dialogue first. I know talk is cheap and actions count more. But having some dialogue is an act also, one he’s always skipped. Maybe I’m crazy.

then I thick maybe I could go home and have a good life regardless. Just ignore his emotionally abusive ways and enjoy my life regardless. I just don’t know how to do that or if it’s possible or if it’s something I or anyone else could learn how to do.

then I think maybe I’ve made him seem worse than he is. Maybe it isn’t that bad. Maybe I just get hurt more than I should. And maybe I don’t focus on the good enough.

maybe I don’t believe in him enough or give him enough credit for being sober for 3 months. For trying to work the 12 steps (supposedly). Maybe I am too critical or harsh in judgement.

naybe I do go on and on to him about how I feel about something he’s unable to have a conversation about so maybe I should just drop it.

now I’m confused and if you’re reading this maybe you are also because I’m making no sense.

I just think maybe he is how he says and not how I think. Maybe he is trying and I’m too scared or untrusting and so I don’t believe it and see every action of his critically.

I don’t know.

Ariesagain

I had a long post written to you and it disappeared. So I’ll give you the short form. It’s one thing if you want to give up on advocating for yourself. After all, you’ve been groomed by this man since you were fifteen to believe that whatever you thought, felt, or wanted was laughable, ignorable, or immaterial.

But what about your daughter? What about the abuse she has had to endure and witness? If a total stranger treated her the way he has…the cruelty, the sadism, the mind games…let alone what she’s had to see and hear while he abuses you…would you just sit back and say that might be okay if you could lower your standards a little more? Would you stand by and just let it happen?

You have four other children. I guarantee you they have experienced some of the same things she has. She hates and fears him. Is that a man you want to continue to have in your life?

Here are all of your threads…it might help to reread them:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...archid=9074577

This isn’t typical alcoholism or even drug addiction. He is a sadistic, narcissistic abuser and the other stuff is just either how he self-medicates or how he unleashes his cruelty and enjoys doing so.

If you had the power to cause all of this in him, you would have had to power to stop it, as well. You never did and you never could. Just because he’s dumped the responsibility on you doesn’t make it true, it just makes it mighty convenient for him to continue to do what he does without consequence.

Now. How do you want to spend the rest of your one precious life?

ETA: He isn’t sober, because his primary addiction isn’t alcohol or drugs, it’s his ego. The rest is just the rancid cherry on top of the melted sundae. He may not be drinking or drugging, but that underlying reality hasn’t changed a bit.

dandylion

Macy......I do think that it is a good idea to reread your previous threads and posts, like Aries suggested. Also, read her last post,over and over. I agree with every word that she says.
What you are doing is minimizing his treatment of you---we see that a lot on this forum---especially, soon after the separation. It seems like it is a part of the process.
Especially, for those who have been abused, systematically, for years, like you have.
After ally, your self esteem and self worth and self confidence has been eroded---down to a nubbin. (you may have to google nubbin...lol). And, it has been done in near Isolation. Isolation is horrible.
In my opinion, healthy, supportive human reatationships are the greatest healing factor---in addition to being away and safe from your abuser, of course.

I suspect that this mental backtracking--that comes after a few days of peaceful, good days---comes after not having any real talking to another understanding human for several days. Reality feedback and validation. (I am not counting the kids). Validation and expressing your feelings. You need that at least once every day or so, at this point in time!! I cannot stress this strongly enough. You are going to need it that consistently for quite a while---especially so, during this transitional period.
I hope that you are getting that for yourself. You need a therapist/counselor that understand abuse. You also, need a lawyer and, maybe a social worker.
You can get the kind of help that you need from the domestic abuse people. Yu may be tired of hearing this, but,please, please take it to heart. These are people who exist solely to help those in situations such as yours. They have heard it all and they do not judge---they UNDERSTAND. They are trained and educated in abuse and they Care.

I know that you have been given a lot of recommended readings by the good people, here on the forum. The "classics"---like "Co-dependent No More"...and, "Why Does He Do That?".....and, "Not People Like Us".....etc. These books will help you a lot. When you feel yourself doubting yourself---stop doubting and start reading...lol.

I suggest that you make yourself a to-do list....and, work on it every day. Baby steps if you have to, Baby step after baby step. Hw does the jug fill with water?---a drop at a time.

He is twisted and abusive and....IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. It is not your fault. It is not your fault.

trailmix

Actually you do make sense. I think what you wrote clearly shows your thought pattern with this.

You are discounting yourself in this. You probably don't see that so much because of all the years of him chipping away at your self worth. Sometimes we have to trust the perspective of others for a while, trusted others. I know when I left a horrible relationship (narcissist) I really relied on my close family member for her perspective because I KNEW my perspective wasn't quite right about things (I had also gone through something traumatic before that as well, non-relationship). Anyway, I would call this person and say, ok, reality check here, I am thinking/feeling this and that makes no sense? My head was quite logical but my feelings weren't necessarily in tune. This can happen to any of us, of course, especially when leaving a relationship.

That's why I hope you take to heart what dandylion has said about support that you need. I hope you will seek some out. Also, post here as often as you like, don't ever hesitate or think you are posting too much or too often.

It's not ok for people to yell at us. It really isn't. Now, sometimes married couples do this. I don't actually let people yell at me anymore, I've been yelled at enough. It is absolutely NEVER ok for someone to lay a hand on us in anger. Never. I have had both kinds of abuse and I almost think the physical abuse was easier to handle. You are there, someone hits you, it's an absolute real thing, there is no question if they hurt you or not. If you think of verbal abuse like that, like every time you are belittled or dismissed or told to pack up your feelings as being abuse, just as real as physical abuse, you might start to view it differently.

When someone cheats on you, they don't get to say, oh it was just nothing and stop bringing it up. You do have a right to talk about things, you do have a right to express how it made/makes you feel. The fact that he dismisses that is appalling. Just who does he think he is anyway?

Anyway, before this gets to novel length, it's nothing you have done/not done. They say about alcoholism - You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's) this applies to abuse too.

It's not you.

(Also, there is no way you could ignore him to the extent needed to ever feel safe and have any kind of happy life).

You deserve so much better than this.

Macyc

Thanks you guys!

I do need a reality check and I can’t stand that I need that. I’m not good at asking for help. Not to mention, I don’t have anyone in my life that isn’t connected to him in some way and I refuse to discuss him with anyone connected to him in anyway. I don’t trust that, I’ve seen for too long how he uses everyone and they seem to unknowingly or knowingly, report back to him.

so that leaves you guys for now. Yikes.

I do have a counselor/therapist I talk to weekly. She even lets me have appointments by phone because it’s hard sometimes to make it in person with my son.

I have read several books recommended. Some have confused me. Why does he do that didn’t. Codependant no more did.

I am trying.

no, I can’t dismiss myself anymore. It’s too painful. And I don’t think I’m dead enough inside to do it, I’m guessing that’s a good thing and has been painful for years.

the other reality is, since he left rehab every text alert I hear on his phone makes me tense. It didn’t when he was drinking. Odd isn’t it? It’s kind of like when my son has a seizure, and he can have some big ones that last far too long. The two minutes feels like an hour. During it, I’m too busy acting. Going to get his rescue med, giving it, watching the clock waiting for it to stop and so on. Like a calm autopilot. Can’t freak out or I couldn’t act. After it, like an hour later, my nerves catch up with me and I’m a nervous wreck. That analogy, it’s like that since he went to rehab. Every day here and there. As if it’s all catching up on me.

whose who? Is anyone who I thought in relation to him. What’s real and what isn’t. And so on. It’s not fun. Which is another reason i won’t talk to anyone connected to him in any way. I left and won’t reply to anyone, I don’t have any “friends” that are separate. Not any i would talk to about this kind of stuff anyway.

trailmix

I totally understand, I don't like to ask for help either but I know that logically, it's a good thing.

I think it's a really sound decision not to talk to his flying monkeys, they probably only see the "charming" side of him. Not because he necessarily is, but because maybe they want to, for reasons you have discussed. And you do have us!

Oh the text noise, I turned mine off, I had the same reaction you do. I have it off permanently now. Your phone may allow you to silence only texts from him but if not I would turn off the text sound for now, eventually you will be ok with it.

Bottom line is, you escaped. The basic person that you are is still there. He can't and couldn't take that away.

I like this image:

​​​​​​​

dandylion

Macy......the folks at the dmestic violence organizations are not connected to him. In addition, everything is strictly confidential, You don't even have to use your actual real name, if you don't wish to. By the way, they are not a government organization.
once, I had a patient come to me with a broken jaw---by her husband. I called the local domestic shelter in my area and we got her admitted to a hospital under completely alias name---so that he would not be able to know that she was in a hospital. After she was discharged from the hospital, she was located to a "safe house"....not even in the shelter---but, in a suburban house not in his neighborhood. This is just an example of how a client can be protected.

Yes, I get it, that it would be ideal for you to have friends...girlfriends that you could talk to. This is why you will have to depend on us, of course, but, you can get emotional support from the shelter community and other professionals. They, also know of the lawyers who work with abuse cases, such as yours and make good referrals.
Even though you have a therapist that you have had...you can also have a counselor in the dv organization. The two are not inconsistent with each other. You can use all that you can get. They also have contacts with social workers who can help you with the practical issues...There are also women's support groups which give you the human connection with others who walk in your shoes. They understand.
I hear you that you have no friends ---this is due to the isolation that you have lived in---and that isolation is sooo, so destructive to you. You cannot remain in so much isolation with this boulder on your shoulders and ever expect to make your way through this. You must have help.
Those who get enough help and resources are the ones who get "free" and get better.

I am, also concerned with your overall health...It sounds like you could be close to physiological breakdown....like, for example, ptsd. Don't let this happen. Forone thing, your children and,particularly, your son depends on you. Your children need their mother to be healthy. This level of unrelenting stress causes other serious physical problems, besides just ptsd. And, of course, a narcissist will use that against you, also. Remember that he is not just an alcoholic, with all that it entails, but he is twisted in other ways on top of it. That is so clear to those of us who are outside of the situation.

Perhaps, the reason of "Why Does He Do That" makes more sense to you than "Co-dependent No More" is because "Co-dependent No More is angled more toward the standard alcoholic relationship---where the other one is about abuse and control and power and entitlement and cruelty.
Oh, I hope that you will read the one that I suggested---"Not People Like Us"...because I think it is DIRECTLY related to your specific situation.

"I am not good at asking for help".....that is a term that I have grown up with and heard so many times. I was born into a culture in the deep mountains of West Virginia---where it was one of the cultural values of the popultion to be fiercely "independent"---severely so In many ways that was a great handicap--when people needed it the most.
I reject that particular value---as my work, eventually, led me to helping people. I have noticed that those who are willing to reach out for help when they need it, are the ones who overcome their difficult challenges, the best and the fastest. We humans are socialized to be interdependent. This is why isolation is so destructive.

Macy....you are being very challenged, here. In order to accomplish your goal, you are going to be asked and need to make some changes---perhaps one of the biggestone is to accept that you have to ask for and accept help, even if you don't like it and don't want to.

Have you ever heard the saying "Nothing changes if nothing changes"......?

honeypig

I want to echo what dandy said here. It is absolutely true.

I've heard people say that same thing, "I'm not good at asking for help", innumerable times, and I've said it about myself too, saying it as if it's a bad thing but meaning it as if it's a good thing, as if somehow it REALLY means, "I'm just so independent and strong and self-sufficient and blah blah that I don't really NEED to ask for help." As the parent of a special-needs child, I think you might be even a little more prone to this way of thinking than most, simply b/c you've had to be this child's 110%, always-there caregiver and this way of thinking spills over into the rest of your life.

But that way of thinking is a big pile of crap. I don't care who you are or how "independent and strong and self-sufficient and blah blah blah" you are, you will need help during the course of your life. Things will happen that will overwhelm you. You will find yourself in situations where you truly don't know where to turn.

I agree, it can be confusing--we are told, on the one hand, to "follow our heart" or "trust our gut", but on the other, we're asked to act on advice that goes against everything we've ever believed. However, what dandy said is true. The ones who make the most progress are indeed the ones who are willing to reach out for help and then act on it. Isolation makes us doubt our view of reality. We don't have any reference points, anyone to bounce our thoughts and perceptions off of and see if they seem accurate. And this is exactly where an abuser can do their work most effectively, twisting reality until it's not recognizable any more. Having people you can talk to, who are in a position to say to you, "wait, WHAT? Go back and look at that again!" is so valuable.

I know that in my early days here, what I wanted most was for my situation to be different without my having to change anything. And I was also told that "nothing changes if nothing changes." Now, several years down the road, I'm no longer nearly as afraid of change as I used to be b/c I've seen the good that can come from it.

Near the end of your post, you say "maybe he is trying." Trying to reel you back in, yes. Trying to change? Nope.

I'd like to share a quote here:

It may be that when we no longer know what to do,
we have come to our real work
and when we no longer know which way to go,
we have begun our real journey.

― Wendell Berry

Ariesagain

I was thinking more about what you said, Macy. Yes, you are more afraid of him now than when he was openly drinking/drugging because you know he needs to be cruel, he needs to be sadistic, he needs to feed his ego by exerting power over others. When he was drinking there was at least a fairly predictable pattern to his behavior and he had a hobby that kept him distracted from abusing and controlling you quite so much. He had an outlet. Now?

That makes perfect sense. See? Not crazy. See? Not you. See? HIM. Not you.

One more thing…after I left my first marriage I went to graduate school and in economics class I heard a phrase that just leaped out at me: “a bundle of goods and services.” That’s what I was…and all I was…to my ex. Me, as a person? Useless or annoying, if that interfered with those goods and services being delivered when he wanted exactly the way he wanted them, and therefore to be ignored or better, scorned and belittled out of me.

A bundle of goods and services. A product, not a person. I wanted to be more. Don’t you?

ETA: There’s another reason you’re more afraid of him now and whatever might set him off…you can’t write off his behavior to the alcohol/drugs anymore. This is who he is. And I suspect you’re also sensing he’s very close to a major relapse and when he’s completely out of control, it’s terrifying. It’s the eye of the hurricane and you’ve lived this way long enough to know when the wind is starting to blow again.

Macyc

Thanks you guys! All of you! Yes, I do need reality checks........ that’s exactly it. Why though? I wish I didn’t. It’s like I know, I know I know....... but there’s this thing in me. Whatever that thing is, it hurts, it clouds, it shakes. Doubt? That is such a burden. Even when I know fully, there’s this part that ......creeps in? I don’t know the word. Perhaps it is the grooming. A habit.

funny thing, not funny haha, my daughters (I have a 19 year old daughter also at college) they think I’m a queen..... they don’t think I’m weak or pathetic. Yet I don’t feel that way and I don’t want to let them down.

Isolated? Yes, it is isolating to not have anyone to talk to about it and I guess right now, I do need to talk about it. I try not to need that. As if talking about it often is a bad thing. Is it? Is that the part that gets me stuck? Not talking about it.

it’s lonely. And I wish there was a magic wand that could just make it go away and I’d not have the hurt of being away. Sometimes that hurt feels worse than the hurt of being there. Isn’t that odd?

how could someone not care about what all their behavior has caused inside another. I just cannot relate to such a thing.

honeypig

There is a saying used in both AA and Alanon, "we are as sick as our secrets." Shining the light of the real world into the dark shadows of life with an alcoholic does so much to take away the fear. It shows the shadows for what they are, just shadows, and not reality.

I recall sitting at the kitchen table one day w/AH, trying to get him to admit that it was wrong that he'd lied to me about this, that and the other thing. I asked him if he would feel hurt if I'd lied to him like that. He wouldn't admit it, and I thought he was just being stubborn. As time went on, I began to believe that he really didn't think it was wrong. The following threads are about other times where I was just stunned to get a glimpse of what it was like in his head. You've heard it said here before, and I'll say it again--we cannot, cannot try to understand the actions of an alcoholic using our own scale of right/wrong and what makes sense or not.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rting-get.html (Finally starting to get it)

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...t-insight.html (Moment of insight)

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ke-inside.html (Seeing what it might be like inside)

Ariesagain

If you talk about it, it might ultimately hurt his image and that’s the most important thing there is. To him. You’ve been trained not to do or say anything that might make him look less than the biggest boar hog on the farm. (That’s not the analogy I wanted to use, but this forum software does censor stuff, so…)

It’s fear. It’s moving out of your hideous comfort zone. It may suck, but you know what to expect, mostly. And you’re afraid of him because he’s threatened you and hurt you. Perfectly reasonable.

That’s why I can’t encourage you enough to find a therapist who’s versed in abusive relationships. As for your daughters…do you want them to believe you’re a queen because you can take the abuse he dishes out or because you can stand up to him?

Call someone, someone who gets it and who can help. Baby steps, yes?

Macyc

Yes. I will do that.

they think I’m a queen because I know the truth and they think I’m strong because I don’t take it. That’s how they see me. They see me as educated and strong, a leader. And so on. I don’t see myself that way. They do. And they mean it. So I must do something right. But no, I don’t feel that way in my head.

dandylion

Yes, Macy.....you DO need to be talking to the people who are there to help you...those who understand and and are prepared and capable of helping you. To know that there are those who have your back---whose loyalty is to YOU...and not him. Those who have no association with him.
It is so vital that you break the utter isolation that you have with this.
The more you garner support, the better you will start to feel.
This is beyond just alcoholism....it is sociopathic and sociopaths do not change. He is not going to change.

I hope you will read "Not People Like Us"....
Last night, I went onto youtube because I was looking for videos for You...lol. I was looking for women who had been through trying to escape the life with an abusive husband, and successfully did it....I came across a series of videos by a woman who had been in a very long abusive relationship by a narcissistic husband...
She basically talks to the women about how she felt as she was going through it. I spent about 2 and one half hours listening to her. OMG, it is like she is taking directly to you.
I wish that you would listen to some of her youtube videos. I know that you would relate to the feelings that she describes.
The series has a funny name....it is called "Narcissists Schmarcissists".
All you have to do is google----Youtube videos "Narcissists Schmarcissists", and a ton of them will come up.

trailmix

My Father was an alcoholic and my Mother didn't drink. She was a great Mother, also strong and very smart. That is how is was. There is no question about that. I don't blame her for staying as long as she did, she had her reasons.

I think she also saw herself as strong, hadn't really thought about it before.

The saving grace, I believe, is that my Father worked much of the time away from home, so we had weeks of breaks from him. Time to regroup and just relax.

You haven't had that, you have had years of constant abuse. Dandylion says sometimes (paraphrasing) that if you are strong enough to live with an alcoholic there is no question you are strong enough to go it alone - that is so true. Also, if someone had asked you a month ago, do you think you could just pack a bag and pack up the kids and take off for a month without letting him know - what would your answer have been? You are stronger than you know.

I assume at some point, the beginning of your relationship that your husband was quite nice, quite charming. Not all days are bad, even now, there must glimmers of "niceness" (maybe). Sometimes when we get some distance, our minds can start to think - oh it's not THAT bad. I mean I've done it up until now and i'm ok, right? Maybe he will get better, maybe over time he will see what an ass he is being, maybe more of the "nice guy" will return.

Frankly, I don't see that here at all.

It can be helpful to write a list of all the terrible things he has said and done to you. Brief descriptions that you can review when some of those "it's not THAT bad" thoughts arise. Not so you can make him the bad guy, but because our minds don't particularly like to dwell on all the negative stuff. That list, when you refer to it will remind you why you are where you are. You can refer to it 20 times a day or more if you need to, to start.

Something like:

- Used Alcohol, cocaine and adderall
- Cheated
- Lies
- Dismisses my feelings
- Won't discuss important issues
- Downplays all wrongs
- Abuses the children verbally
- Never able to make plans
- May or may not be where he says he will be

etc etc

You get the idea.

It's scary going out on your own. Not nearly as scary as staying with him I shouldn't think, when you really look at it.

Macyc

Thanks you guys!

ariesagain, I deeply appreciate you taking your time to do that with me in mind. I’m deeply moved by kindness and I think that speaks something to me that I am, because I’d do that for someone. Yet to me, acts like that seem extraordinary, not ordinary. I like to think that shouldn’t be the case. That kindness should be ordinary even if we are still grateful for it. I will read that book or start to this evening. And look at the videos.

trailmix, thank you also. I will make a list. I appreciate you all.

today, my daughter and I did a thing. A thing unlike me but we did it together. All Of my kids are musically gifted. My daughters in particular are classically trained vocally and have the most beautiful voices, who can’t love a soprano. A Broadway show she and I saw once, our favorite scene/song is called “I know the truth.” It’s from Aida. So, she wanted us to get matching tattoos on our wrist with that written. She told me she wants it to serve as a reminder and for me to look at it when my mind tries to resort to its fall back mode. She said her brain doesn’t do that. She doesn’t have a shred of doubt as to what he is and she doesn’t doubt reality for a second. They’re quite cute tattoos. In type writer font. This coming from someone who isn’t really into that type of thing....... no regrets.

Ariesagain

I love those tattoos! Great idea.

And it was our ever-lovely Dandylion who found those videos for you, not moi. She is a treasure!

Macyc

Sorry dandylion! I type on my phone here away from home so it’s hard to keep screen names straight. No computer with me. It’s a real burden 🤣

dandylion

Macy......no worry.

By the way, I am dedicating the following song to you, tonight. It is my favorite inspirational song for women.
It is by Peter Gabriel. It is probably before you time, but your daughters might also like it, if they have never heard it.

dandylion

Macy.....here is the link to the song-----"Shaking The Tree", by Peter Gabriel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erlKviVpKok