Macyc

Abuse and everything else aside......let’s pretend AH is sober and working at AA, in recovery so to speak...... let’s assume that to be true. How do spouses get past some things. Cheating comes to mind.

AH cheated. He wouldn’t admit such but he has. So let’s just look at things I saw with my own eyes..... him kissing another woman (I witnessed).

he’s in recovery and I tell him I don’t know I can go through any more cheating. I think the risk of that happening would take more than I have.

and he tells me he never cheated. I explain my stance and he tells me he isn’t going to be inappropriate with anyone, be with anyone and only wants me.

this feels incomplete. I’m not heard. Plus, it answers nothing. I don’t want to believe a lie. It’s his reaction and reply or lack there of that makes me nervous more than the act of cheating itself. Someone who “gets it” and cares would account for the behavior. Not want me to swallow another lie.

so how do people move past such a thing? When it’s the same old. Practicing this thing called “letting go” in my opinion means letting go of things I can’t control. I can’t control his drinking. I can’t control his behavior. I can’t control his lack of attention to things I’m trying to resolve.

I can’t resolve some things with some level of resolve to move forward with him if he isn’t on board. I can on my own.

am I making sense? If he wants to be together like he says and wants to show me, ok. There’s some communication that takes place first. Denials and lies aren’t a good start.

I don’t know how to letting him “show me” when I’m being lied to in the communication.

Im guessing the norm is someone in recovery wouldn’t be lying.

of course he makes it as if I’m hammering him over the same thing or punishing him or nothing he does is enough.

it would be enough to have a communication that resulted in truth. If he can’t tell the truth that I have witnessed what I did, how can I even believe I could “let him show me.”

believing lies just doesn’t feel good. Am I missing something here?

dandylion

Macy...I think that one thing that you are missing is that ALL alcoholics lie---because it is integral to alcoholism. I have never met an alcoholic that didn't lie in order to continue drinking and the behaviors that go along with it...like cheating, hiding bottles, etc.
In my opinion, it is unrealistic to expect an alcoholic not to lie. An alcoholic will do anything--anything--in order to continue to drink---even if doing so harms himself and those close to them. This is alcoholism---it is integral.
If an alcoholic were to stop lying---they would have to be intensly working a program of recovery. It is not enough to go to a few AA meetings and sit through them. It requiires a committment that is diligently adhered to---at the top priority in his/her life. It involves having a sponsor and lots of time devoted to the program. It means working through all of the steps ---and doing ii FOR A LIFETIME.
They have to want it above anything in life.
This---even if it does happen, it needs--to be in actual recovery mode---not Just putting the bottle down. It requires a total life shift. It takes time---lots of time...anywhere from one to five years---depending on the individual person.

I have, personally, never had to get past cheating---but, even in relationships where there is no addiction...all of the evidence indicates that it is really hard and both parties have to work really hard...and, usually with ongoing good professional help. No everyone seems to be able to do this.
I don't think, from all that I have read and witnessed, that it can even be attempted unless the alcoholic has gotten into True Sobriety.

Ariesagain

I struggle with that statement. A lot.

He’s been violent, he’s been arrested, he’s spent thousands of dollars on drugs and strippers, he’s been verbally abusive, he’s demanding and controlling, he’s alienated his daughter…and that’s only what you’ve posted here. I’m guessing there’s a whole lot of ugly you haven’t mentioned.

As gently as I can, he’s not in recovery. He might be going to meetings, he might have a sponsor, but there is zero evidence from what you’ve posted that suggests he’s having any kind of real, core level insights, let alone recognizing the kind of massive overhaul of his personality he’d have to face to truly be in recovery.

Some people can live with a cheating spouse. That’s a potential choice. But I guarantee you, he will cheat again and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s cheating on you now, while you’re away. It’s a not a real big jump from strippers and cocaine dealers to sex workers.

It sounds to me like you’re bargaining with yourself and negating your emotions and your right to leave a messed-up relationship. Above all, it is your decision and only you can know what you really can live with.

But I would bet major money that what’s going to happen if you do end up “trying again,” is more of the same, but worse, because you had the nerve to stand up for yourself instead of staying home like a good little meek housefrau picking up his clothes, rubbing his back, cooking his meals, caring for his kids, going to bed when you’re told to, and being his punching bag, verbally, if not literally. Although it wouldn’t surprise me.

Again, your choice. But all of the mental hoop jumping aside, I suspect it might ultimately cost you your relationship with your daughter. Once she’s a legal adult, it’s quite possible she is going to get as far away from his toxicity as possible and while she may still love you, she will not respect you or be willing to have a close relationship with you if it means she has to deal with him, too.

Wow, I’m blunt today. So only one more thing: it’s my firm belief that your husband’s alcoholism and drug addiction are not the biggest problem, they’re only a symptom of an entrenched personality disorder. Since he is always right, that won’t change.

So, IMO, the question isn’t, “which parts of this relationship are acceptable or unacceptable,” it’s, “can I deal with more of the same.” Unfortunately, you can’t pick just the parts you want to keep. It’s a package deal.

I hope you can spend some of this time enjoying your time away with your children.

Macyc

Oh wait, I’m not bargaining or trying. No. What I’m saying is even outside of that. Starting small. Zooming in on just “this” what I posted above, I don’t even know how to do that! I couldn’t even do that.

add in the other stuff and now my head spins.

if it were just the above, how’s one even do that. Assuming he were in “recovery” and I were to assume he were, I’d get stuck there. Am I impossible? I still see it as a road block. I can’t believe lies. I can’t not know what I know. His way would skip the talk part and say I should let him show me. I can’t let him show me when he can’t even communicate first.

How does that work.

simply put..... let’s say someone hurts another, even unintended. Upon realizing such, they go to the person and speak. Listen. Exchange more caring words. Understanding is reached. Two people now move forward.

ah skips that part. It’s supposed to. E straight to the end result. Yeah, I can’t do that.

times he does communicate something and tries to make it look like something meaningful, he speaks in general terms. “I’m sorry for things I did that hurt you. They won’t happen again.” On its face maybe that looks like an apology. It isn’t. What things? Are we talking about the same things?


my point is. He’s made me feel like I’m unreasonable or impossible to please.

I think the truth is, I may be too reasonable and to easy to please.

I in no way meant I was putting my head in the sand and bargaining. Was zooming in. For my own sanity. And the result is the same.

Macyc

And yes, we have enjoyed each day in many ways. Thank you. And we still have several more weeks! Upon the end of this, I’ll have to have a decision. Go back or not. I can’t go there and expect he will leave and I’ll be safe in that house. His house. Sure, we are married. Yes, it should be “ours” and I have rights. Isn’t a fight I’ll fight. I know how he thinks. Whether it’s true legally or not, it’s his. He can have it. I don’t really care. I’d rather live in a tent and eat dirt then fight him over material things.


there’s one place he can’t control me. In all the ways he tries, there’s one he can’t. He cares about his money. I don’t. I never have. It does not impress me. He can take his rich man status and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. It buys me nothing. No security. No peach of mind, nothing. He can take every designer thing he’s ever bought me and burn it. If he doesn’t I will. It’s dirty. It’s embarrassing. It’s all a lie.

and that’s how I feel about that 🤭

velma929

Bottom line: your husband can't be forced to be the person YOU want him to be.

You've explained twice at least how normal person-to-person interaction work. We know. Every one of us has an alcoholic spouse, child, sibling, grand-dad, or friend. We're all aware how alcoholics operate. And as pointed out above, your husband's drug use is the least of his problems.

You AH may have a *moral* obligation to work on his marriage, but you can't *make* him.

You must love him a lot to be hanging in there like this. Good luck.

Ariesagain

Macy, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your original post above. I feel kinda fierce about protecting you from that situation (as if I could) and I identify probably too closely with your daughter’s experience. I grew up with that, too, and I still struggle with some of the triggers even though both of my parents are now gone.

Mea culpa.

Macyc

It’s ok, I don’t feel defensive here. I also probably don’t make much sense right now. My daughter matters a great deal to me also. She and my son are why I’m trying.


I know I’ve explained it several times to whoever the poster is that pointed it out (sorry I don’t have screen names down yet). I’ve been quiet a long time, with no voice and so on. Some patience as I try to sort through many years of this I need with myself and from a safe space. I also realize everyone here has dealt with an addicted love one. And many are further down the path of understanding themselves than I am. It’s why I’m here. And hopefully, one day, I’ll be further down my path as well.

I’m trying. I really am.

Macyc

Oh and FYI. I did get codependent no more. I think I’ll have to read it several times to understand it. So far, I don’t. Clearly, I’m not dumb. I’m just kind of clouded.

trailmix

I see this as a completely separate issue. The man is a liar and a cheat. He still gets messages from strippers, nothing normal there and very disrespectful.

Blatant lie.

You are completely spot on here. He takes no ownership, dismisses your "worry" and lies some more.

I can't imagine anyone moving past all this. To move past something, to accept an apology, firstly whatever the "thing" is must be addressed and discussed. Then the person has to not do that anymore. He isn't past anything so there is no way to forgive, can't forgive something that continues (even if it is just the lying - which is a terrible thing).

But indeed, you will have to let it go if you decide to stay in a relationship with him. You can't control him, he's not changing, as someone else said, you will just be in for more of the same. He is who he is.

Yes, this can't currently be resolved, you're right.

You are making sense but you have to accept that he is who he is (I mean, of course, if you want to be around him). He lies, he will continue to lie. He talks but his further talk/actions show that what he means isn't true. Actions not words, look at his actions.

You left for a month and left him a note and what did he do? He wrote you a snippy little note like you are someone slightly off her rocker (you're not).

Yes.

The best offense is a good defense. You know, he has mastered manipulating these situations for years.

You can't.

No you're not.

trailmix

I think you are! I think it's great that you come here to vent and discuss and question. I'm glad you are using your voice. It can be hard to unravel all this when you have been on this crazy train for so long. Please feel free to share and discuss anything you like. This stuff takes time.

Macyc

Thank you trail mix!

I am pretty sure I won’t be going back. I don’t see how I can. Anytime I’ve left (and I’ve left before, as in separated never left like this &#129315 when he convinced me to return, he’s always worse than before. The monster grows bigger. I can’t imagine that!

I did read codependant no more. I related to a lot of it and a lot of it I did not. I don’t try to care take everyone. I don’t have trouble saying no to everyone. I don’t feel responsible for lord of peoples feelings. Just his which are shoved down my throat. I related to some aspects of it in relation to AH. I can go on and on and get stuck on a problem and be unsure how to detach from it. It can consume me. But I couldn’t relate to the anger aspects and so on.

then, I read another book someone suggested, it was called why does he do that...... now this one I related to every page start to finish. I even threw it a few times because it was scary.... reading my life in a book.

trailmix

Wow, yes that can be scary. I have only read a few excerpts from that particular book.

Living with that kind of abuse can be learned in some ways. A tolerance for unacceptable behaviour that might be higher than most. Do you think you learned that tolerance somewhere, what has your reason for staying been so far? That's worth looking at maybe?

Macyc

It was a slow process. The first time ah was abusive wasn’t the same as the 50th. And it got worse over time.

what also got worse over time was my lack of confidence. Add in several kids, one with extreme medical needs. Add in I stayed at home with the kids. Add in fear. Add in..... see? It equals feeling stuck or safer to stay. Also, don’t forget the power imbalance with me staying home and him being quite successful. Financially abusive. So who would have the best attorney? Sure, he may get ordered to pay my fees but that takes time and good attorneys do not work for free. Money talks. He gets off everything because of that. I’ve watched it happen more times than you’d know with things not even pertaining me but including me also. The world really is set up for wealthy people. Hard pill to swallow unreal as it sounds

when the kids were younger, the idea of him having visitation alone was such a scary idea. I believe tbis about him as fact: Let’s say an emergency happened. One of the kids needed emergency attention. If ah told the truth the child would live. But, he may fear the truth could cause him to look bad. He’d lie. If the lie meant he wouldn’t possibly look bad, he’d pick it over his child’s life. That sounds extreme but it’s real.

our daughter would never stay alone with him. If I were going to the store, she’d always come with. I’d even say “I’ll be right back, your dad is here” because sometimes it’s faster to not have kids with you but she would never do it. When she got older, around age 10, she told me the reason. She was able to articulate it. She said if she was alone with him he would tease her relentlessly. I call it toxic teasing. She would ask him when I would return and he’d say in a taunting voice “eeewwwww. Mommy’s not coming back....... you are stuck here with me....she is gone forever.....” and she’d get so upset and he would call her a baby. She hated him even driving her to school. Again, she explained when she got older that he would drive very very slow and in that same taunting voice say “you’re gonna be late...... you’re gonna have to go the the principals office..... you’re gonna be in trouble....” he’d repeat it until she would react and be frustrated. Then he’d scold her “you know I was just playing, don’t talk to me like that.” And so on.

so why didn’t I leave? Is more like how could I leave? He has rights. He’d have gotten visitation. And I’d have looked vindictive in court not wanting him to have it for valid reasons to me but the law is another thing. Then our son...... who has no voice and is completely dependent. Oh I can’t even imagine.

anyway, there’s why.

did anything set me up for this? Well, my life wasn’t perfect growing up. But, it wasn’t awful. My mom loved me very much. My dad? He passed away when I was very young. I don’t hardly remember him.

my mom did not remarry until I was an adult.


I think someone like ah could happen to anyone.

maybe my mom did teach me things that unintentionally set me up for this. Or didn’t teach me about these kinds of things? She did always suggest I “be nice” and not hurt people’s feelings and all those old school southern things.

case762

I know EXACTLY what you're saying, about being unable to move past the cheating until HE acknowledges the hurt it caused. I know exactly what you mean about the deafening silence when you want them to acknowledge the pain it caused you and how their lack of response is worse than the act. And the constant LIES to cover her tracks, OMG, you could write a book with them. I don't have the right answer for you, but I've been there, done that, now patiently waiting to see if she REALLY is in recovery and will start doing the hard work of repairing the damage she's done. My biggest frustration is how she just keeps saying "We need to move forward" and she doesn't want to talk about it. I get it, it's hard to stare at the damage you caused. But that's what adults do. They clean up their mess. I know it's possible, but as many people have said, an addict's mode of operation is lying, cheating, and manipulation. It's not always out of some sociopathic, or morally bankrupt objective. Their brains are damaged. They don't think as a normal person does. I believe they can be healed but they have to want to and then acknowledge that damage. It's a steep hill to climb and they have to do it themselves. And you have to decide if you can hang in there. The hard truth is the odds are not good that he will reconcile with you in the near future, if at all.

I'm in the same boat. AGF was just discharged from rehab. She had a little "fling" with a total loser while there. She says she's sorry and wants only me. But it's been dawning on me that I have been under the foolish impression that this was the only time she ever did this. So I have to know where my limit is with regards to determining if she's TRULY in recovery or not. You have to figure out your limit too. And if he takes you past your limit, well, you know what to do.

dandylion

Macy......I want to tell you about a book that I think would be very validating---specifically, for you. It is called "Not to People Like Us: Hidden Abuse in Upscale Marriages". It is written by Susan Weitzman, PH. D. It speaks to the abuse and, often, isolation of women in relationships in upper middle class and upper class---financially.
When I read it--it was published in 2001---it was a real eye opener for me! I had worked with abused women in my own professional capacity (medical) and I was surprised at what I was NOT aware of!
One of the things that it addresses is this---that the general population often does not have much compassion for women who are married to wealthy men---because they don't know that some of these women are financially abused and isolated by their men. They are often left helpless and isolated---and the men use their considerable power and money against the abused wo men. Isolation is a Big--big factor. Often, they have no access to the monies---which came as a big surprise to me. They learn that people may not believe them---and they fear that they don't have real access to the courts.
As I am hearing your story---I keep thinking of the things that I read in this book.
I suggest that you make it the next book that you read, because I feel certain that it will validate soo; much of what you are feeling and experiencing.
You can get it on amazon,com in the book section. You can get it on kindle, also. Also, you can get it through the local library.

Macyc

Thanks dandelion! I’ll be reading it tonight!

TropicalWinter

My EXAH cheated. A few years ago someone in here posted a link to chumplady.com regarding cheating spouses, and that blog/message board (the message board is now on Reddit) SAVED MY SANITY in the same way this site did regarding his substance abuse. There is also a book written by the creator of the blog, Tracy Schorn - Leave A Cheater, Gain A Life.

Sueby

For years and years I rode show jumpers (horses) and we had a saying, “Sometimes you can’t get past the fear, you just have to do it scared”.

honeypig

I'm no mental health professional, but Macy, no normal person does things like this. These are the actions of someone who is seriously sick. Does he pull the wings off of flies for fun, too? If you need any validation that this behavior is utterly and completely wrong, here it is. No healthy adult would ever torment a child in the way you describe him doing.

There is another member here who has posted about how she was tormented by her nanny as a child and still struggles with the damage done. Words cannot express how much I hope you're able to cut ties with him, and soon.