KnowAFew

Trying to understand this cunning and baffling disease.

Let's say the alcoholic has used up all his 2nd chances.
Yet, he is stilling hanging on, and still has a chance to escape total destruction of his lifestyle.
He is given a choice, if you drink again, you will go to jail, lose job, lose custody, get arrested, etc.

No sober person in their right mind would choose this. It is truly baffling.

What goes through their mind when they take that drink, knowing full well the consequences?
Do they think they will get away with it? They think the proposed gambit will not be enforced? Infallible.
Do they lie to themselves, and think, I'll just have a few? And then they are out of control after the first sip?
Is it deliberate self-sabotage?

This type of decision making borders on insanity, which is why the mental disease label makes sense to me.
That's about the only thing that makes sense.

kevlarsjal2

Maybe if you see it less as a choice they make and more like a compulsion it will make it easier to understand. Most alcoholics I know don't enjoy drinking anymore by the time they stop. Many even hate booze and are terrified of the consequences of their actions, are in deep shame about what chaos and destruction they are causing. Yet they can't stop themselves when a force of unknown power in their heads tells them to pick up that drink. For many of us it feels like some other force is taking over, we watch our legs walk to the corner store, our hands pour that drink and there's nothing we can do. For many the disease grows so strong that we feel completely powerless over it, like there's some kind of malfunctioning autopilot program running. Many describe it as a mental blind spot kind of thing too.

Many alcoholics mean it when they swear they won't pick up again. But then the compulsion is too strong and they do it again.

Maybe imagine you have a mosquito bite and it itches and itches and you know you shouldn't scratch it but then at some point the discomfort gets so unbearable that you just do it anyway cause you can't handle the itchiness anymore. Or maybe you stop focusing on "not scratching" for a moment and then do it, absent minded.

KnowAFew

Wow, that is well spoken. malfunctioning autopilot. It's like they are possessed, because in their right mind, would never risk a 3rd DIW, for example. Non-hypnotized person would take preventative measures.

dandylion

KnowAFew.......there is another aspect that you may not have thought of. since you are not an alcoholic, yourself.
By the time an alcoholic actually becomes PHYSICALLY dependent on the alcohol....within hours, the physical discomfort sets in. The autonomic nervous system starts to "rev up". and the person begins to experience withdrawl symptoms. /the discomfort is extreme and grows steadily worse. There is extreme anxiety and a feeling of impending doom. At a certain point, hallucinations are possible and the person can actually go into DTs (delerium tremens). There may be alcohol withdrawn seizures and other life threatening events.
I have detoxed many alcoholics, in my life, and I would never ask someone to just stop drinking "cold turkey".....because I know the dangers and understand the physical suffering/
Anyone who is going into withdrawl symotoms----even much milder than I have described----will reach for a drink to feel better.

Just imaging that you are going for a walk near the Sahara Desert and you are beginning to get dehydrated and thirsty. so dehydrated that you are beginning to fee dizzy. Then, imagine that someone offers you a frosty glass of iced tea, with tinkling ice cubes. Also, imagine that they say to you---if you love your family, do Not drink this tea. What would you do. What would you do if one more hour passes and you are even more thirsty?
I think that the compulsion to drink alcohol for the alcoholic can be very similar to this.

KnowAFew

Wow, another great metaphor.
Thank you for trying to help me understand.

What is baffling is how someone can get multiple DWI and go to jail.
With logic foundation, you call a taxi, get Uber on shortcut, or simply do not leave the house if drinking.
You can plan around this. Drinking? Bring food home first. Do not give yourself any reason to drink and then need to drive.

But, this is not a rational exercise in planning. But, why is it not possible for the alcoholic to do this?
But even best laid plans, maybe they do, but then slip up 10 out of 1000 nights, and get caught once on that 10th try.

trailmix

Two things come to mind. First of all a person so far down the alcoholic path isn't thinking very clearly, even when not actually drinking. Secondly they may have great intentions of calling that uber to get home, but after the 10th drink they may not even realize what they are actually doing (blackout drunk) or they just don't care.

Bunker

It is called addiction. Unfortunately logic does not come into it.

dandylion

KAF........LOL....I can see that "logic" seems very Large for you and you can't really wrap your head around the concept that everyone doesn't have access to the same anount/kind of logic.
Can you imagine functioning with only a part of your brain? This is what actually happens, functionally, at least, with the frontal part of the brain--right behind the forehead---for the alcoholic drinker. It happens when the alcohol reaches the brain via the blood stream---as well as during sober times, for the chronic alcoholic (to some extent).
This is important, as this area of the brain--the frontal lobe--is where the so called "Executive Functions" reside. This is where logic, planning, judgement, thinking, etc. resides. The alcoholic will be impacted in these functions, depending on how much and how long they have been drinking.
This is why a person's logic may not be as crystal clear as you imagine that it Should be.
I am giving you the following link to some brain scans that shows the affect of alcohol on the brain, as compared to a non-alcoholic brain.

photos of brain scans of alcoholic - Bing images

FallenAngelina

At the same time, many of us in this section devote (or have devoted) every waking moment to worrying about and trying to help the alcoholic. When we are (were) not trying to help, we are obsessively thinking about and trying to steer others in the correct direction, as we see it. Why do we turn our entire lives over to obsessively focusing upon others, even though it makes no logical sense to live in constant pain and fear? Living in an ecosystem of fear and worry also borders on insanity.

Alcoholism is a family illness and it's not just the alcoholic who needs to change his thinking if the whole family is to become well.

KnowAFew

I'll disagree here.

That is not insanity, it is just misguided ignorance. Not understanding what you are dealing with. Enabler behavior is not irrational, in fact, it's highly rational. But is futile in the end. But, this decision can be understood, trying to help has a very clear and obvious motive. Why help the A stay out of trouble? Cover their tracks, save their job, avoid jail. Makes perfect sense.

Robbing a bank is also rational. Also misguided ignorance. But, it is very easy to understand why someone robs a bank... Why rob a bank ? For easy money! Makes perfect sense.

But, deciding to drive after already getting 2 DWI's is literally irrational. There is no logic at all there. It is not possible to make sense of that decision.

FallenAngelina

Alcoholism is a family illness and alcoholism is a family mindset. I'm not the first to say that when you try to carry an alcoholic, s/he will die in your arms. Trying to carry an alcoholic might feel rational and logical, but living this way is to choose insanity.

dandylion

KAF......perhaps you didn't see m y post made at 7;21 AM? That is my answer to a possible reason that some decisions are not logical for the alcoholic. Alcohol can interfere with the executive functions of the frontal lobe of the brain.

KnowAFew

Yes, I did, and accepted that as the rational way to explaining the irrational.
Decision making is damaged. (When drunk, order food delivery / call Uber, do not drive)
A policy rule so basic can be done by a child, so it is like a brain impairment.
The part I didn't understand is why these decisions can't be made while sober before drinking.
This shows there is "brain damage" even when sober before drinking, like in the morning.

nez

Time and time again I have seen where an alcoholic doesn't change until they hit rock bottom. An enabler seeks to prevent the alcoholic from reaching the very thing that could possibly bring about a 180 degree turn and save his/her life. Where is the logic in that?

KnowAFew

The logic is that they think they are helping.
Sure , those in the know understand it simply kicks the can down the road, but few people are AA experts.
Do not confuse rational with effective.
If the boss calls home and asks A's the wife, "Does he drink all weekend because if he is, I am firing him right now",
saying "No" is a perfectly rational decision. It saves him from being fired. You get at least one more paycheck, so the lie yields another $3000 in cold hard cash. As rational as a bank robbery.
However, being drunk with 2 DWI's and deciding to go for a drive is not rational. There is no universe where that makes sense and yields a positive outcome, short or long term.
Saving a job for one more paycheck does yields a positive outcome, in the short term.

dandylion

I think that there is one thing to be considered, here (in this discussion about enabling)....and, it is this.
Most of us are taught certain things about how to behave in relationships, as we are growing up. Messages given by our families, and in our schools, and in our churches, and the various medias, and our observations, etc. The thing is, that most of these message and "rules" work pretty well for ordinary and healthy relationships.
Unfortunately, what we are NOT taught is that alcoholism (addiction) and abuse turn the usual rules all topsy-turvy. Many don't work when dealing with an alcoholic---and, what does work is so counter-intuitive to us that it seems too bizarre to do,
I think that a lot of enabling is well intentioned by good people who simply are ignorant of the actual nature of alcoholism.

KnowAFew

Agreed, but my main focus for this thread is the defective decision making of the alcoholic.
Someone with 2 DWIs who can afford to taxi a taxi everywhere will instead get DWI #3 and go to prison.
It's almost as crazy as, "You can have the juicy hamburger and $1000 ......or I can hit your face with this hammer. Pick one"
And he picks the hammer. It is that insane.

SparkleKitty

Denial can be the most powerful force in the universe.

HopeUnending

My AH does/says things when drinking he never has/would do sober. Sober decisions just don't co-exist with alcohol influenced thoughts, impulses.

It's a hard truth as everyone has said but sadly it's just how it is. The alcoholic drinking and the consequences are not our problem or cross to bare. Yes, it does affect us at times in some way or another. But letting go of trying to control their poor decisions is when you finally feel a bit free, a lighter load to carry. It's incredibly hard to do- I still fall back in the old pattern of saving him from consequences but it really will help you by not helping the alcoholic from consequences.

KnowAFew

Not trying to help anyone. Only he can help himself. On the path of total self-destruction. I know to steer clear. However, that does not mean it is not baffling when trying to understand the total inability to make basic decisions to protect himself. Need to drink? Call in sick 100 days in a row and get drunk for 100 days in a row! Just don't show up drunk at work once. Need to get somewhere? Call a limo! Every day! Just don't drive and land in jail for a year.