pizza67

Here’s just one prize anecdote.

He
-picked fights and irritated kids because they wouldn’t be nice to him when he said happy thanksgiving
-said that he didn’t want to come to dinner with us if they didn’t want him here, so I should ask and bring him food if they didn’t
-I asked, they said no
-I brought him food and joined him for half the meal
-he lashed out that the kids are amoral, don’t respect authority, and it’s my fault 🤦‍♀️

SparkleKitty

You don’t have to play his games. Especially considering you are never ever going to win, and neither are your kids.

pizza67

I know. And he only said it to them in the first place to try to force a response. They know he’s inauthentic in that and in his “apologies” so they ignore him. And then it’s my fault when they don’t follow that charade up with an engraved invitation.

suki44883

Yep, I agree with SparkleKitty. You are playing his game and rewarding him for his bad behavior.

pizza67

how, by asking the kids if they want him there?

suki44883

No, by taking him food. Then by sitting with him. My feelings are, if he refuses to eat with the rest of the family, he can go hungry, or fend for himself after everyone else has eaten. He's acting like a spoiled brat and doesn't deserve to be catered to. Just my opinion.

pizza67

Also, so I have trouble not responding to provocation. He starts with a battery of questions/comments eg “So tell me what I did wrong in THAT situation?” “Are you as their mother responsible for their moral
development?” He will just keep going and going and escalate to massive blowouts involving everyone. How do you guys NOT TAKE THE BAIT?

SparkleKitty

I started by accepting that I would not win. That I had literally nothing to gain, and everything to lose if I took that bait.

Practice saying “mm-hm”, “you might be right about that”, and other dismissive phrases and then go about your life as you would if he weren’t there.

Be safe, but drop the rope and enjoy the holiday with your children.

pizza67

I can do it to a point. Then he’ll escalate it to something that he knows I can’t just ignore and I break

pizza67

Yes he is

SparkleKitty

Detachment isn’t easy and takes practice.

It also isn’t really a long term strategy if your intent is to stay in the marriage. And if that is the case, it’s even more important that you learn to let go of the things he knows will trigger you, and to accept that he won’t be the one who has to change if your life is going to get better.

NONIA

I would just say nothing .
No respond=no more arguing .

pizza67

I just received a text that this day has caused him some very deep and troubling doubts about the goodness of humanity....

dandylion

Pizza------while I thoroughly agree with the other posters that you are getting drug into playing the manipulating behaviors----and, thus "colluding" with him (unintentionally).....I do understand the pickle that you are in. I have been in a situation where someone pokes and pokes and pokes at you, until you can't take it any more.
Though most people don't call it this---it is actually an abusive and aggressive action, at that level. Albeit, Passive aggressive---but, still aggressive and mean and emotionally destructive. Sort of like a cat playing with a mouse.
He has your numbers---he k nows where the hot buttons are and how to push them He pushes until he finally gets a reaction---then he can turn it all around to shine the spotlight onto you (and the kids) and take all responsibility of the family disfunction and his part in it off of himself.
He knows what "works" and, he is not going to stop manipulation----I can tell you that passive aggressive manipulators/abusers are extremely hard people to deal with. lol---if they are good at it, you don't even realize that you have been had until you feel the knife in your back----then wonder---"how did that get there?"

To me, he sounds likke he is rigid and authoritarian as a parenting style.
In the long run---it is the kids who are going to suffer the most---as, what they are learning about how people relate to each other, begins in the family, for the most part.

I agree that distancing techniques are not a long term strategy....it is just one tool to get some space...a little more peace, in the short term.
It sounds like things have gotten to a very toxic level within the home. More drastic action than just distancing may be in line for consideration. Like, was said, before---you are not going to "win".
remember the 3 Cs?....Yiou didn't Cause it. You can't Cure it. and You can't Control it.

SmallButMighty

I know it's frustrating Pizza67. My AXH was very passive aggressive, very manipulative , very good at deflecting blame on to anyone but himself, very good at playing the "wounded one"... It's so exhausting and defeating to live with someone like that. They choose to live under a dark storm cloud of pity and try to drag everyone else under it with them. The good thing is we can choose not to play their games.

I know how hard it is to have someone keep picking and poking at you until you just can't stand it anymore and snap back. I don't blame you for engaging with your husband. I did the same thing for years. Sometimes because I was trying to keep the peace, other times because I was damn mad and I was going to point out where he was wrong about all the dumb things he had said. None of my efforts ever got me anywhere. He kept on being him no matter what direction I approached him from.

I don't want you to feel like you've been piled on here, but I do agree with the others who have suggested you just don't play along with him. I suggest you don't make special exceptions for, such as bringing him food or playing messenger. Him using you as a conduit between him and the kids is sick triangulation, it's unhealthy for ALL of you. You doing these things for him helps him keep feeling like he deserves and gets your special treatment. His behavior does not deserve special treatment. It fuels his "spoiled brattyness". The more you ignore or grey-rock his words, and the less you react to his shenanigans, the better you will feel. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it must be obvious by now you are never going to score any points, let alone win an argument with him, so why even bother? It just makes you that much more upset. After a while you actually WILL feel stronger and less affected by his B.S. if you don't allow what he says to mean anything. You know your truth.. what he spews is meaningless drivel.

I know it's hard. I'm sorry you are struggling with this.

thequest

To me it sounded like defacto demands but that's what manipulators and narcissists do. I sounds like he put too many stipulations on that deal. And then the complaints. He sounds bitter because deep down he knows things are messed up. Regardless of the chemical I'd say he's crossed enough lines he should indeed be out of your life.

Stay safe! With out bursts like one day you'll become a physical target of one of them.

mylifeismine

When I seriously and earnestly sought to change the "dance" I was dancing with my
then AH, I realized I need some useful phrases or responses to change the way I
was interacting. This isn't a long term solution but for me it was truly a game
changer and why I recommend it so much. I agree with other posters that
some of your behavior is sending mixed/rewarding messages for his selfish
and irresponsible behavior.

https://outofthefog.website/what-to-...3/medium-chill

If he called you a duck would you defend yourself and JADE that you weren't?
He's calling you a duck all day long. Stop JADE ing. It's more productive to
bang your head against a brick wall.

thequest

Excellent site/article which coincides what I've read here and other places.

Big thing is do not engage the alkie that also means do not let things turn into a debate or negotiation. And yes don't react, try to be neutral or emotionless. The narcissist in them is constantly hunting for leverage to make themselves feel right, superior, just etc

Tacotuesday

I haven’t visited this site in months - for many of my own reasons - but I find it interesting that yours is the first post I saw & clicked through. I don’t really remember when or how I fully appreciated that I was under NO obligation to attend every fight I was invited to - especially by my alcoholic husband. Just 2 days ago he got all bent out of shape over the exact timing of some texts between us & how I was arranging a firewood delivery. When the argument begins it feels almost normal, & as you try to explain yourself & hear the illogical accusations you get this weird “off/oh no/wait what is happening here feeling in your gut. When that feeling hits, I remove myself from the situation. I don’t wait or listen to anything else, I say no, I don’t need to do this right now, & I go to another room. Usually the inevitable timing of the day means I’m going to bed. & the most maddening thing is that 95% of the time he acts like nothing happened the next day.

I 100% get how frustrating your situation is! I’ve found that the number one tool that has been most helpful to me in my situation has been that disengage “button”.

dandylion

Tacotuesday just reminded me of something that I tend to forget---and, I'll bet that others do, also-----is that WE remember everything that happened and every word that was said-----however, much of the tifme-----The alcoholic DOES NOT! Alcohol wipes out much of the short-term memory---and, if they are very intoxicated----they will have total blackout of memory. It is like it didn't even happen, to them.

I see. all of the time, here on the forum. where the non-alcoholic says "This morning, he acted like nothing ever happened!"
It really is frustrating -----and, as long as I have been around alcoholism----I still forget and have to remind myself that they have the short term memory of a fruit fly--lol.