Triggering feelings
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Triggering feelings
Hi everyone,
It will be a long and complicated message and I want to be upfront: what I am going to describe is giving me intense cravings for alcohol, even after several years. I don't even know how many years or months, my last relapse was in 2016.
I really would like to speak with someone about my current feelings and have no idea where to go. I did psychotherapy in the past for similar, but it just ended up feeding the same pattern multiple times, the therapists engaged in it without true introspection, it never went away or really ahead. Some of you older friends may remember patterns from my posts. If so, please point them out to me and tell me how to fit/use them better.
"Current" story:
In one line of my career, I am an academic professor. I have had a student during the COVID lockdown. Not only now, but now we developed a very intense, productive, ongoing relationship of deep intellectual conversations. Computational biologist, which I also am at this point, but more advanced, more motivated, more... everything I really would want to be, but am either failing or just using it. And faking - interactions with him triggers major impostor syndrome feelings.
Plus, the unspoken interpersonal elements. I have a long history of similar - developing what feels like very intense and equal relationships with my own mentors, often ongoing for years. Had two also before the current one, with my own mentees. My former mentors never did anything abusive – maybe they didn’t have the courage or just took the easy option - using the vibe for their motivation, for years. But they always engaged and I was always the instigator. I would bet most likely they never addressed it because they didn’t want to let it go... the interactions are certainly very stimulating and rewarding, I must say addicting, in the moment.
I finally, completely understand why and what my old mentors did in the past. Having that intense relationship with someone you see almost as an extension of yourself, or everything you dream of but might not materialize, simply because time and one’s generation... Its is extremely narcissistic, appealing, something that you want to sustain. But it is not sustainable in this way, and the alcohol cravings, after years, make me very worried.
I am sure my current student will experience many of the same things in 10-20 years, with their own coworkers… Some of us just have that have that “predisposition”. Perhaps even try to come back to me to discuss the past and to see how to change... but that time may or may not be late. I really wish my own old mentors had the courage and authenticity to address this with me. They didn't and that's okay, but I would like to manage this differently. How?
And what to do with the "sudden" insane alcohol cravings these experiences induce? I haven't had any for at least two years. I am aware of a lot more than I could describe above, just wanted to keep it relatively concise... but please as away and point out anything!
P.S. First I wanted to write all this (and more) to the student and to a senior colleague of mine. But did the thing I often recommend to others: to write emails, never send, and use them in other ways. Send them to people you expect to understand, instead of acting out, or just feeling horrible alone.
It will be a long and complicated message and I want to be upfront: what I am going to describe is giving me intense cravings for alcohol, even after several years. I don't even know how many years or months, my last relapse was in 2016.
I really would like to speak with someone about my current feelings and have no idea where to go. I did psychotherapy in the past for similar, but it just ended up feeding the same pattern multiple times, the therapists engaged in it without true introspection, it never went away or really ahead. Some of you older friends may remember patterns from my posts. If so, please point them out to me and tell me how to fit/use them better.
"Current" story:
In one line of my career, I am an academic professor. I have had a student during the COVID lockdown. Not only now, but now we developed a very intense, productive, ongoing relationship of deep intellectual conversations. Computational biologist, which I also am at this point, but more advanced, more motivated, more... everything I really would want to be, but am either failing or just using it. And faking - interactions with him triggers major impostor syndrome feelings.
Plus, the unspoken interpersonal elements. I have a long history of similar - developing what feels like very intense and equal relationships with my own mentors, often ongoing for years. Had two also before the current one, with my own mentees. My former mentors never did anything abusive – maybe they didn’t have the courage or just took the easy option - using the vibe for their motivation, for years. But they always engaged and I was always the instigator. I would bet most likely they never addressed it because they didn’t want to let it go... the interactions are certainly very stimulating and rewarding, I must say addicting, in the moment.
I finally, completely understand why and what my old mentors did in the past. Having that intense relationship with someone you see almost as an extension of yourself, or everything you dream of but might not materialize, simply because time and one’s generation... Its is extremely narcissistic, appealing, something that you want to sustain. But it is not sustainable in this way, and the alcohol cravings, after years, make me very worried.
I am sure my current student will experience many of the same things in 10-20 years, with their own coworkers… Some of us just have that have that “predisposition”. Perhaps even try to come back to me to discuss the past and to see how to change... but that time may or may not be late. I really wish my own old mentors had the courage and authenticity to address this with me. They didn't and that's okay, but I would like to manage this differently. How?
And what to do with the "sudden" insane alcohol cravings these experiences induce? I haven't had any for at least two years. I am aware of a lot more than I could describe above, just wanted to keep it relatively concise... but please as away and point out anything!
P.S. First I wanted to write all this (and more) to the student and to a senior colleague of mine. But did the thing I often recommend to others: to write emails, never send, and use them in other ways. Send them to people you expect to understand, instead of acting out, or just feeling horrible alone.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,416
I think you know what to do Aellyce - you said yourself it's not sustainable.
Covid is hard on everyone - it's understandable to form attachments during these times - but not all attachments are good ones,
Action is easier said than done I know but the red flags here are pretty obvious?
D
Covid is hard on everyone - it's understandable to form attachments during these times - but not all attachments are good ones,
Action is easier said than done I know but the red flags here are pretty obvious?
D
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,036
Hi Aellyce -- I can relate kind of. At least I'm in a similar position as you're in, where such relationships can form, and certainly in the past I've been exposed to that sort of intensity. My reaction in most cases is quite different from yours tho -- I've had way too much bad experience being/knowing dominant personalities to do power dynamics anymore. When I did "pretend" ones -- ones I knew I could win hands-down (when I was drinking), I'd still go ridiculously overboard -- I run intensity into emotional havoc in record time.
When I got sober, I dropped high-intensity relationships. For me, other things have grown more interesting, and now I find all that kind of vibing a little silly. Too many bad memories associated with pheromones. Too many triggers. I had a super-smart AA sponsor who didn't give a rat's a$$ about the intellect. That helped me.
The treatment for triggers is the same as it's always been: 2 tablespoons of Ben & Jerry's.
PS is there any possibility you're creating both the intensity and the subsequent triggering to bring on a relapse, because you're afraid you can't be successful/attractive/interesting over the long haul of sober living? Because a) you don't have to drink, and b) you can and are all those things, now and as long as you want to be.
When I got sober, I dropped high-intensity relationships. For me, other things have grown more interesting, and now I find all that kind of vibing a little silly. Too many bad memories associated with pheromones. Too many triggers. I had a super-smart AA sponsor who didn't give a rat's a$$ about the intellect. That helped me.
The treatment for triggers is the same as it's always been: 2 tablespoons of Ben & Jerry's.
PS is there any possibility you're creating both the intensity and the subsequent triggering to bring on a relapse, because you're afraid you can't be successful/attractive/interesting over the long haul of sober living? Because a) you don't have to drink, and b) you can and are all those things, now and as long as you want to be.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 2,426
I have many questions about the vagueness of what you describe but I don't need to understand. We all should understand a few common things. First, mentees are not the same as coworkers on equal footing. There is a privileged power position over mentees and it should never progress beyond purely work and academic discussions. Anything else is a horrible abuse of power. Second, the intense relationships your former mentors forged with you - if they were anything more than normal coworker relationships with no power differential - were horrible abuses of power. There doesn't need to be anything scandalous that happens for it to be horribly wrong. Intensity that happens in working relationships in which power dynamics are present are roads fraught with peril. It does the person with less powers no favors - with themselves, their coworkers who see the special treatment, and on and on.
If I'm misunderstanding the nature of your post I apologize, but I think you are bringing it up because you sense some of these things.
If I'm misunderstanding the nature of your post I apologize, but I think you are bringing it up because you sense some of these things.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
sounds to me very similar to any kind of obsession.
the extra difficulty when the obsession is with a person who engages is that the dynamic keeps getting fed from both sides.
i think any obsession itself can trigger any other. it’s like any one of them springs from the same bedrock that they all have.
and i thoroughly agree with the “power points” mentioned above.
the extra difficulty when the obsession is with a person who engages is that the dynamic keeps getting fed from both sides.
i think any obsession itself can trigger any other. it’s like any one of them springs from the same bedrock that they all have.
and i thoroughly agree with the “power points” mentioned above.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Humans are so insane, aren't we? You're a highly intelligent highly introspective person who just described cravings rising from (frustrated?) intensity in this necessarily Not equal relationship.
And you ask what to do about the cravings.
Hello?
And you ask what to do about the cravings.
Hello?
Coffee Snob
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Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: USA
Posts: 808
I'm probably too stupid to understand what is really happening here, but I don't exactly understand the vagueness of your post.
Is there some kind of romantic thing fueling this that you don't want to speak on? I don't know.
A drink isn't going to help anything. I know that much.
Is there some kind of romantic thing fueling this that you don't want to speak on? I don't know.
A drink isn't going to help anything. I know that much.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Yeah, the post is really vague.
You know about abuse of power. You know what to do.
I would not get into any conversations with them alone, always have someone else on the conference call/Skype/Zoom or another person in the room. No private emails, calls, or texts but only those that are sent to a group out of absolute business necessity. I wouldn't have them in my office or go to lunch or give them a ride. No alone time. Non-negotiable.
In the past I would obsessively read and reread past interactions with people who interested me and spin all kinds of tales, and follow them on facebook or other internet connections. Today I would delete permanently any past correspondence that might be triggery or lead me to do anything which would harm me.
Protect yourself and the other person at all times. It's like we say about not going to drinking parties. Just remove the opportunity for "intensity."
You know about abuse of power. You know what to do.
I would not get into any conversations with them alone, always have someone else on the conference call/Skype/Zoom or another person in the room. No private emails, calls, or texts but only those that are sent to a group out of absolute business necessity. I wouldn't have them in my office or go to lunch or give them a ride. No alone time. Non-negotiable.
In the past I would obsessively read and reread past interactions with people who interested me and spin all kinds of tales, and follow them on facebook or other internet connections. Today I would delete permanently any past correspondence that might be triggery or lead me to do anything which would harm me.
Protect yourself and the other person at all times. It's like we say about not going to drinking parties. Just remove the opportunity for "intensity."
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Thanks guys. Sorry about the vagueness, I was in a weird state of mind when I wrote the original post. Too many things spinning in my head, not thinking straight and overwhelmed. I don't know what sort of details would be interesting to provide but maybe it clarifies a bit that there was never any romantic/sexual relationship in these stories, either with my old mentors or my mentees. Of course there have been "cravings" and fantasies, sometimes a lot of them, but no action. There were sometimes discussions about the desires and fantasies when we felt we needed that to move on, but not in recent years. Not sure I can control the thoughts other than trying to not allow myself to follow and dive into them too much, which I do now but not when I was younger...I usually indulged in my imagination instead. In practice, they are usually intense conversations and some have crossed over into more friend-like connections, especially in the past with some of my own professors, meaning that we would go out and and do non-work things together and talk about personal things. With the current student, none of the latter even. But I completely agree with the suggestions that this is an obsession like any other. I think they can be triggers, because in the past often the virtual interactions would occur while I was drunk and they became linked in my mind, they had become "cues" - a lot like when listening to certain music can triggers cravings for someone.
I've already stopped the intense communication with this student and we talk mostly in groups / group emails. Never talking one on one is not really possible as we do need to work together and can't always include others just for the sake of it. Before COVID, we would have meetings in my office to discuss his projects, now it's emails and Zoom. But the frequency must have been confusing for him and now I feel guilty about the whole thing - of course I know it is not right and we do not need that level of intensity (frequency) to be productive.
I need to find a way to stop this pattern altogether and not even start next time; in principle I can do that easily as I usually recognize these people, the potential, very early after meeting them. I don't know why I still don't have the inhibitory control required for that but really would like to finally be done with this history. It is very addiction-like and the episodes (people) are a lot like relapses with any addictive behavior, including now that they don't even feel satisfying really and just cause unpleasant, confused and confusing situations soon. I am not sure though how to prevent the obsessive interests but I must be able to prevent the practical manifestation/action. I don't feel a need to always have someone to do these things with anymore, but they still happen every now and then. Again, it's a lot like someone who used to be a daily drinker and pursued sobriety, but they cannot keep 100% sober and relapse now every few months or years. Surely I can't say I have recovered from this interaction pattern yet. They don't always happen in the scenarios that have power differential, and I can't say it's more appealing when they do - the same can happen with certain friends, even had them with many people I met purely online, including here on SR in the past. I need to find a way not to engage with people in this way - of course then there would be no triggers.
Yes, there is an element of that, but not because I feel I can't be those things in sobriety. More that I feel certain experiences are over due to aging. Of course, still trying to do them will only look ridiculous at minimum and irresponsible/destructive if I don't control it better.
I've already stopped the intense communication with this student and we talk mostly in groups / group emails. Never talking one on one is not really possible as we do need to work together and can't always include others just for the sake of it. Before COVID, we would have meetings in my office to discuss his projects, now it's emails and Zoom. But the frequency must have been confusing for him and now I feel guilty about the whole thing - of course I know it is not right and we do not need that level of intensity (frequency) to be productive.
I need to find a way to stop this pattern altogether and not even start next time; in principle I can do that easily as I usually recognize these people, the potential, very early after meeting them. I don't know why I still don't have the inhibitory control required for that but really would like to finally be done with this history. It is very addiction-like and the episodes (people) are a lot like relapses with any addictive behavior, including now that they don't even feel satisfying really and just cause unpleasant, confused and confusing situations soon. I am not sure though how to prevent the obsessive interests but I must be able to prevent the practical manifestation/action. I don't feel a need to always have someone to do these things with anymore, but they still happen every now and then. Again, it's a lot like someone who used to be a daily drinker and pursued sobriety, but they cannot keep 100% sober and relapse now every few months or years. Surely I can't say I have recovered from this interaction pattern yet. They don't always happen in the scenarios that have power differential, and I can't say it's more appealing when they do - the same can happen with certain friends, even had them with many people I met purely online, including here on SR in the past. I need to find a way not to engage with people in this way - of course then there would be no triggers.
Originally Posted by courage2 
PS is there any possibility you're creating both the intensity and the subsequent triggering to bring on a relapse, because you're afraid you can't be successful/attractive/interesting over the long haul of sober living? Because a) you don't have to drink, and b) you can and are all those things, now and as long as you want to be.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,036
Reaching middle-age sober is a good opportunity to re-look at yourself and think of the impact and reputation you want to have socially or professionally. Then, well -- someone told me that how much or how little you believe in something doesn't matter -- you have to act it. Acting a social/professional role that fits sobriety and all that sobriety brings -- dignity, self-respect, humility -- takes practice, but I'll bet you'd be happy with the results.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
I stand by my suggestion to never be alone with someone who has proven to have intentions or interests that are not in line with my values.
I don't think it's possible to avoid attractions in general.
It is possible to stop them at a pre-determined level. If I didn't trust myself (which is what it sounds like you're struggling with here) I would not let myself have any further conversations that are 1. Alone (private) and 2. About anything not strictly business.
I'd have that conversation now. Stop it now. Maybe reassign him elsewhere or at least make it very clear there will be no more one on one. This isn't good for your serenity, and you don't need to keep torturing youself.
Yes, it is possible to do that. I know you're saying it's not, but that's your demon/addiction in your mind talking.
I don't think it's possible to avoid attractions in general.
It is possible to stop them at a pre-determined level. If I didn't trust myself (which is what it sounds like you're struggling with here) I would not let myself have any further conversations that are 1. Alone (private) and 2. About anything not strictly business.
I'd have that conversation now. Stop it now. Maybe reassign him elsewhere or at least make it very clear there will be no more one on one. This isn't good for your serenity, and you don't need to keep torturing youself.
Yes, it is possible to do that. I know you're saying it's not, but that's your demon/addiction in your mind talking.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by biminiblue
I stand by my suggestion to never be alone with someone who has proven to have intentions or interests that are not in line with my values.
I don't think it's possible to avoid attractions in general.
It is possible to stop them at a pre-determined level. If I didn't trust myself (which is what it sounds like you're struggling with here) I would not let myself have any further conversations that are 1. Alone (private) and 2. About anything not strictly business.
I'd have that conversation now. Stop it now. Maybe reassign him elsewhere or at least make it very clear there will be no more one on one. This isn't good for your serenity, and you don't need to keep torturing youself.
Yes, it is possible to do that. I know you're saying it's not, but that's your demon/addiction in your mind talking.
I don't think it's possible to avoid attractions in general.
It is possible to stop them at a pre-determined level. If I didn't trust myself (which is what it sounds like you're struggling with here) I would not let myself have any further conversations that are 1. Alone (private) and 2. About anything not strictly business.
I'd have that conversation now. Stop it now. Maybe reassign him elsewhere or at least make it very clear there will be no more one on one. This isn't good for your serenity, and you don't need to keep torturing youself.
Yes, it is possible to do that. I know you're saying it's not, but that's your demon/addiction in your mind talking.
The advice to think about these things as a reflection of my values and what sort of professional I want to be is a good one. Not sure I can make the temptations go away with it, but I can certainly choose the actions, and professionalism is something I always value, whether in others or in myself. It's just interesting how that value can be affected by these more primal instincts and pleasure seeking, but that's exactly how it is similar to addictions. I think this is also quite similar to another very common situation, when a doctor, therapist or lawyer violates their professional role and the boundaries of the interactions with the patient/client, even just in their feelings and thinking. I did try to discuss it with the student, suggesting that we talk about what really goes on and restructure our communications, but his reactions are also quite avoidant and clearly he does not want to talk about it openly. Maybe because it would inevitably be a somewhat unpleasant, vulnerable conversation, maybe (in part) because he does not want to break the interactions for himself either. We just had a group meeting today where he was presenting his recent work progress and he was clearly struggling, very nervous, which is uncharacteristic.
Obladi was right - pretty insane that we need to deal with these things in spite of more straightforward, cleaner forms of judgment.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,036
I find it almost inevitable that when I have tension/anger/inner confusion about a relationship with someone, I send out a vibe. Sometimes it's just a tone of voice, I don't know. But if the other person is remotely vulnerable, they pick it up and it affects them. It's ok in a lot of work situations among peers, but *not,* imo, in dissertation advisement. Speaking from having been on both sides of that fence.
I don't think you should explicitly discuss boundaries, at least not in those terms -- that would make things worse. And I agree that you shouldn't drop this student. But you can back off live meetings with him, and regulate your correspondence. If he's still meeting one-on-one with you on a regular basis after 3 years, perhaps you should cut apron strings for his own good. I've recently told one of my advisees that if he doesn't have written work for me to review, we won't talk. You can be explicit about your role, which should be more service than gratification for you.
To be a really good mentor, you have to get your house in order.
I don't think you should explicitly discuss boundaries, at least not in those terms -- that would make things worse. And I agree that you shouldn't drop this student. But you can back off live meetings with him, and regulate your correspondence. If he's still meeting one-on-one with you on a regular basis after 3 years, perhaps you should cut apron strings for his own good. I've recently told one of my advisees that if he doesn't have written work for me to review, we won't talk. You can be explicit about your role, which should be more service than gratification for you.
To be a really good mentor, you have to get your house in order.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,036
You've heard enough from me, but I'm avoiding work...
on the other hand, if you *cannot* keep your psycho-social d**k in your pants, you should talk to your chair and recuse yourself, before you get yourself and others in real trouble.
Think lawsuit. Claims of workplace harassment can arise in situations like yours, and involve your whole institution.
on the other hand, if you *cannot* keep your psycho-social d**k in your pants, you should talk to your chair and recuse yourself, before you get yourself and others in real trouble.
Think lawsuit. Claims of workplace harassment can arise in situations like yours, and involve your whole institution.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 2,426
"I don't know what sort of details would be interesting to provide but maybe it clarifies a bit that there was never any romantic/sexual relationship in these stories, either with my old mentors or my mentees."
Are you purposefully ignoring what we are offering here? As I and others have already repeatedly pointed out to you Professor, there doesn't need to be any romantic or sexual relationship for there to be horrible abuses of power that take place. Life changing for the person with less power. You wouldn't be writing such long tomes about this - expertly slicing the bologna a thousand different ways - if you weren't trying to make yourself feel better about something you know is wrong.
Are you purposefully ignoring what we are offering here? As I and others have already repeatedly pointed out to you Professor, there doesn't need to be any romantic or sexual relationship for there to be horrible abuses of power that take place. Life changing for the person with less power. You wouldn't be writing such long tomes about this - expertly slicing the bologna a thousand different ways - if you weren't trying to make yourself feel better about something you know is wrong.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,416
it really is very common in academia.
I think it would be best for your student to find a new mentor, how ever inconvenient he might find it, or how embarrassing or disappointing you might find it Aellyce.
D
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I very much appreciate the feedback, thank you everyone! Good to also hear these things from someone who is in a similar business.like courage. I already had similar discussions with senior colleagues earlier in my career but, sadly, they often don't seem to appreciate the seriousness and just validate the feelings and even actions, stating it's a normal learning curve like everything. Yeah, maybe "normal" as in common, but that does not justify doing it over and over and dismissing the effects it can have on someone much more inexperienced.
No in person meetings is ideal since we are not allowed to have in-person meetings anyway due to COVID, and that's not going to change for a while. Well, good and bad, since this whole situation also developed during the virtual-only time. I think part of it is exactly that we can't see each-other, there are no direct, palpable reality checks of who we are talking to. Much easier to project all sorts of fantasies into it this way. That's why, in general, I am much more prone to developing this pattern when there is a lot of virtual communication. That's how I also misused this forum in the past - as a stimulating distraction. Often, when I get a chance to talk face to face, the whole temptation disappears as I acutely realize it's just a fantasy and not truly "out there" in terms of the person or relationship being special. The psych buzzword "transference" is a very good, descriptive term, I think... although that literature often makes it way too one-dimensional and simplifies/misinterprets the many ways it can arise.
Yeah, I started doing that already with this student (and do similar with others) - ask that they reach out and come to me when they have completed a good chunk of work and it's put together in an organized, meaningful way. Not on impulse, unprepared, and unnecessarily. They very often want to talk in unproductive ways, which is normal, we all need to learn how to do that. I think this will work with him in the future but he also needs to learn better what productive means.
Right, probably not a good idea to have an explicit boundaries discussion - that's one thing that never worked too well in the past, because we could clearly sense that their mind was in conflict with their words and then still (again) engaged, it was very inconsistent. It can also come across condescending and imposing authority/control, which should and cannot not be done using empty words IMO. When others tried that with me, I would often just lose respect for them. What did help me in the past was when the mentor openly admitted it was complicated for them as well, and that they had to look at/change their own behavior. But that is also only effective if there is real change and then consistency, not further push/pull cycles. Again, just like with sobriety.
I think I can resolve this without involving the chair and doing anything dramatic/drastic. The student is also the kind of person who likes to focus on work, can pull his sh*t together in stressful situations and move on without professional relationships and work damaged. That's part of the appeal I think - I was always like that, too. There are many who are really very vulnerable and fall apart when interpersonal challenges arise, and those are never the ones I develop these patterns with. But it does not mean there are no scars from it, and being in this situation once when young is exactly how a whole pattern can follow - because it never truly gets resolved, we just move on... until the next person/situation. This was definitely started for me from experiences with mentors when I was an undergrad student, who certainly were not as aware of how this works and what truly drives it (and I wasn't either back then). They would usually last for years. Apart from the individual forces motivating it for everyone, I think there are the classic elements of midlife crisis type thing, when an older person seeks stimulation and instant gratification in this way, because their normal life stopped providing it, or they don't want to accept the shifts in normal life experiences and motivation as we get older. That wasn't an element for me earlier in my life, but I clearly recognized it in others and recognize in myself now. This is really not driven too much by one's sexual desires/instinct I think, not primarily... it is much deeper. But it easily gets transferred into those kinds of fantasies (in the better case) or acting out that way (in a bad case). I actually learned a lot about myself from being in these situations when younger and this student also has the opportunity for that - some of the best lessons about personal values, needs, sense of self and similar things that drive us to certain other people in ways that are hard to control. Of course the fact that we can use it for introspection does not justify prolonging it - I think those lessons are already pretty clear and do not require complicating the situation further.
I think it is very correct that I would not think/write so much about this if I didn't know it was fishy. But I do disagree that this is all about romantic/sexual affairs - that is a way too superficial and simplistic interpretation IMO.
Okay, I will think about all this more for a few days. I do want to figure out how not to get into similar things, because simply dumping this student would not achieve that, I am pretty sure. That would merely be damaging someone's career and running away from it, IMO.
No in person meetings is ideal since we are not allowed to have in-person meetings anyway due to COVID, and that's not going to change for a while. Well, good and bad, since this whole situation also developed during the virtual-only time. I think part of it is exactly that we can't see each-other, there are no direct, palpable reality checks of who we are talking to. Much easier to project all sorts of fantasies into it this way. That's why, in general, I am much more prone to developing this pattern when there is a lot of virtual communication. That's how I also misused this forum in the past - as a stimulating distraction. Often, when I get a chance to talk face to face, the whole temptation disappears as I acutely realize it's just a fantasy and not truly "out there" in terms of the person or relationship being special. The psych buzzword "transference" is a very good, descriptive term, I think... although that literature often makes it way too one-dimensional and simplifies/misinterprets the many ways it can arise.
Yeah, I started doing that already with this student (and do similar with others) - ask that they reach out and come to me when they have completed a good chunk of work and it's put together in an organized, meaningful way. Not on impulse, unprepared, and unnecessarily. They very often want to talk in unproductive ways, which is normal, we all need to learn how to do that. I think this will work with him in the future but he also needs to learn better what productive means.
Right, probably not a good idea to have an explicit boundaries discussion - that's one thing that never worked too well in the past, because we could clearly sense that their mind was in conflict with their words and then still (again) engaged, it was very inconsistent. It can also come across condescending and imposing authority/control, which should and cannot not be done using empty words IMO. When others tried that with me, I would often just lose respect for them. What did help me in the past was when the mentor openly admitted it was complicated for them as well, and that they had to look at/change their own behavior. But that is also only effective if there is real change and then consistency, not further push/pull cycles. Again, just like with sobriety.
I think I can resolve this without involving the chair and doing anything dramatic/drastic. The student is also the kind of person who likes to focus on work, can pull his sh*t together in stressful situations and move on without professional relationships and work damaged. That's part of the appeal I think - I was always like that, too. There are many who are really very vulnerable and fall apart when interpersonal challenges arise, and those are never the ones I develop these patterns with. But it does not mean there are no scars from it, and being in this situation once when young is exactly how a whole pattern can follow - because it never truly gets resolved, we just move on... until the next person/situation. This was definitely started for me from experiences with mentors when I was an undergrad student, who certainly were not as aware of how this works and what truly drives it (and I wasn't either back then). They would usually last for years. Apart from the individual forces motivating it for everyone, I think there are the classic elements of midlife crisis type thing, when an older person seeks stimulation and instant gratification in this way, because their normal life stopped providing it, or they don't want to accept the shifts in normal life experiences and motivation as we get older. That wasn't an element for me earlier in my life, but I clearly recognized it in others and recognize in myself now. This is really not driven too much by one's sexual desires/instinct I think, not primarily... it is much deeper. But it easily gets transferred into those kinds of fantasies (in the better case) or acting out that way (in a bad case). I actually learned a lot about myself from being in these situations when younger and this student also has the opportunity for that - some of the best lessons about personal values, needs, sense of self and similar things that drive us to certain other people in ways that are hard to control. Of course the fact that we can use it for introspection does not justify prolonging it - I think those lessons are already pretty clear and do not require complicating the situation further.
I think it is very correct that I would not think/write so much about this if I didn't know it was fishy. But I do disagree that this is all about romantic/sexual affairs - that is a way too superficial and simplistic interpretation IMO.
Okay, I will think about all this more for a few days. I do want to figure out how not to get into similar things, because simply dumping this student would not achieve that, I am pretty sure. That would merely be damaging someone's career and running away from it, IMO.
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But I do disagree that this is all about romantic/sexual affairs - that is a way too superficial and simplistic interpretation IMO.
Emotional addiction, however chaste it might or might not be, is still addiction, I think.
I still think you know what the right thing to do here is
D
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"But I do disagree that this is all about romantic/sexual affairs - that is a way too superficial and simplistic interpretation IMO."
You are the only one that keeps pointing out the absence, the irrelevant absence, of romantic/sexual affairs. Everyone else has tried, unsuccessfully thus far, to point out to you that the destructive power dynamics at play are far more broad than romance and sex.
You are the only one that keeps pointing out the absence, the irrelevant absence, of romantic/sexual affairs. Everyone else has tried, unsuccessfully thus far, to point out to you that the destructive power dynamics at play are far more broad than romance and sex.
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