Ituvia

I know Narcissists are codependents too but my husband has been researching about narcissim and admitting he has Narcissistic traits. I thought people in the spectrum don't really have any idea of their behaviour? He met me yesterday and was all apologetic about the way he treated me and then he sent me this email
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One of the realization I had yesterday was how codependent I am, I have been subconsciously using you to cover my incompetency. I am going to speak to my therapist about this and work on breaking free from my narcissistic behavior
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And then he sent me this link which further muddles the murky water.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/addiction-and-recovery/201905/trauma-bonding-codependency-and-narcissistic-abuse%3famp

I am so confused.

SparkleKitty

Can you please explain your premise that “narcissists are codependents too”?

Ituvia

I read the blog by Sam Vanakin who explained that Narcissists are codependents too.

SparkleKitty

Okay. I am not familiar with that blog but also I am not a fan of sweeping generalizations.

Maybe let your husband figure himself out, and you work on you.

Ituvia

I got freaked out when I read the blogs on narcissim wondering if I am the one who's exhibiting these traits and because my husband seems to be saying he is exhibiting these traits now.

My reality is so distorted after eight years. I don't know what's what anymore. I always thought I feel emotions intensely and very empathetic. But after he came to my house yesterday he has been admitting his traits openly and the last email was really mind bending.
Before he left my place a month ago I asked him if he feels he is a Narcissist. He said he doesn't know what it means. All I knew at the time was emotional abuse and selfishness. As I read more it was very fitting. I don't know if he read too much of it and now relates to it. What could've been a dry drunk traits perhaps.
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He's told me that he is going to be working with a therapist for 6-9 weeks. I bave twice weekly appointments with mine.

dandylion

Ituvia-----In "Co-dependent No More", it is explained that there can be two co-dependents in a relationship. It has been some time since I read it, but, I clearly remember that she discussed it.

I feel safe in saying that there can be a lot of distance between having some behaviors that could be called narcissistic and having a true Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It would be a good idea to know the difference, when using those terms. It seems that, in the media, the term "narcissism' is very popular to toss about, these days. lol---that is o.k, I suppose, as long as everyone is clear on exactly what it means.

Ituvia

My understanding was it was incurable and they are incapable of empathy so when I read it I was looking at him through that mirror and everything from then on seemed like NPD. Now I'm not so sure anymore. I am starting to question if I pigeonholed him into a diagnosis myself and he is going nuts with it because I specifically asked him if he was a Narcissist. Mind works in such mysterious ways. I'm working with a therapist and seeing him breakdown yesterday all day I was still sure that he was faking it. I feel like I was so stone cold simply based on the diagnosis

dandylion

Ituvia----someone doesn't go "nuts" just because someone asked them if they were a narcissist". Especially not, if they were anything resembling stable.
In medical school students are always thinking that they have the last disease/condition that they studied.

A person doesn't need a label to put on another person to know what their OWN feelings are. One can know how another person makes them FEEL. They can know when another person is bad for them--or if that person is a bad fit as a partner.

How do you know that he was "crying all day"? Was he in your presence? I was thinking that he was in a different location--and only came over to drop off your documents---perhaps I have gotten the details wrong?

Ituvia, you will never unravel what makes him tick. It is hard enough to endeavor to understand ourselves and what makes us tick----lol.

Ituvia

Yes he came over in the morning and stayed till afternoon. He was just crying all day. Asked my forgiveness and said he realized he has made my life hell and he realises now more than ever that he needs to change his ways. And he respects if I decide not to be with him. I told him ultimately it's my decision.
i have been thinking about what you said as well that med students think what they studied last to be what they have. I have been reading about emotional abuse and other personality disorders and maybe I'm trying to pigeonhole him. And at what point do we recognize that humans are much more than labels and capable of complex emotions? This pandemic hasn't been helpful at all. And psychologists don't even know what impact this has on the human mind. Including mine and his.
We had plans to move abroad so we quit our jobs sold our stuff and moved to my parents' place waiting to book our flight tickets with the dogs. What if these stressors are playing into everything? At the end of the day he is human too with complex emotions and traumas. I get that we need to decide anything what's good for us and what's not but I also have had extreme Anxiety most of my life and for the first time in probably a long time, I have been able to maintain some routine while working on myself. I meditate, do yoga, exercise in the evening and sleep better with the meds I am on. Finally I feel like I don't have racing thoughts and fear and anxiousness all day. I didn't even know this was Anxiety till about few months ago.
He also has Anxiety from what I can tell. And he has been self medicating with alcohol first and then cannabis after being one year sober from alcohol. He has other issues obviously. Reckless spending , emotional unavailability and keeping to himself and deflecting blame.
I don't even have a question but it just got me thinking that humans have and experience range of emotions and changing each day. At what point is it enough? At what point is acceptance an option?

velma929

While it's infinitely tempting, applying psychological diagnosis without actually being a mental health professional isn't wise, or even particularly helpful.

People - all kinds of people - can be manipulative. A person could even [gasp] LIE about being sorry for his or her actions, just to get a partner back into the relationship. You want to call it something, have at it, I guess. My shrink put it this way: "There is a reason you're staying in this relationship. There is some payoff. You are getting something you want." That could be anything: financial stability; not losing social status because the marriage failed; thinking you'll never find another love and be alone; maybe, secretly feeling a little superior to the consort, maybe feeling a tad superior to other people because YOU stayed to try and save the addict when others abandoned him.

Acceptance is always an option, but with this condition: The addict will not change. If he/she does change, it will probably be for the worse. The life that you are living today is the life you'll have tomorrow, and the next day, and next month, and next year.

This isn't exclusive to alcoholism, either. There are issues important in your life. You might have friends that disagree with you on religion, politics, having children, spending/saving money, but their decisions on those topics don't affect you the same way they would as if you were married. Once you're in a partnership, you live with the effects of your partner's spending habits, his/her level of emotional maturity, level of cleanliness or slovenliness, poor driving habits, bad temper, etc.

You've had eight years of experience with this person. If you want to talk about 'acceptance' then accept that this is as good as it gets. This is what you're deciding is an okay lifestyle. Maybe you'd rather live like this than take your chances being single and starting over - that is totally up to you. Understand - that is a choice.

Ituvia

So people don't change at all? Like they've had some awakening to change?

Ituvia

Thank you. Gave me lot to think about. He is not drinking though. He has been sober for three years. Well not sober but not drinking for three years.

velma929

That's not acceptance, That attitude is the total opposite of acceptance.

Ituvia

He wants to change and says he is working on it. I feel conflicted. I don't know if I can trust him now. Hence I feel like do I need to accept him even if he doesn't change? I was not able to earlier.

dandylion

Ituvia-----I suggest that you print out Velma"s last long post and tape it to your bathroom mirror and carry another copy in your purse. She speaks truth on this matter, I think.

mylifeismine

One of the things we say as codependents is that we are addicted to the addict.
This means we use a great deal of our energy and resources trying to control and
fix our alcoholic/addict. We can come to spend so much time doing this, we no
longer "know" ourselves- what we want, what we believe, how to take care of
ourselves, how we can grow and mature - all the healthy things that can happen
when we are in healthy relationships.

When we we come to realize that we have more or less "abandoned" ourselves, it
is very frightening and scary. To face the day not trying to control/fix/diagnose
another - and instead focus on ourselves. Many times it seems nothing is left.
But that's not true! It is a process and we have to let go of trying to save someone
and instead do the work to save ourselves. It takes courage, help from alanon,
a sponsor, our higher power, SR, a counselor, and friends who understand and support us.

We say that we are "picking up a drink" when we try to control or fix, much like
the alcoholic can relapse. Try a few days or a week no contact and focus on you.
It seems you will not make progress with him around or contact with him, like
an alcoholic spending his days in a bar trying not to drink.

We never have to accept someone who harms us. We can care, but we have to care
about ourselves and our own health and sanity more.

trailmix

Sure some people change, but change is HARD. It's incredibly worthwhile and some change is harder than other change. And as velma mentioned, this isn't acceptance - that's "I accept him just as I hope he might maybe be, at some point".

As for narcissist vs codependent or a narcissist codependent, these are two separate things. They are not one thing. So sure he can be both, but that doesn't mean he is and as velma mentioned, the only person that can diagnose that is a psychiatrist.

Narcissism, in particular, as in being a person with a true Narcissistic Personality disorder is a very complicated issue, it's something that is actually part of the person's psyche. While your Husband may display narcissistic tendencies, that does not mean he is (or isn't) a true NP disordered person.

To change narcissistic personality traits to change from being a codependent requires work, preferably with the help of a professional. You yourself have said how hard it is to try to not be codependent, that's true, imagine his battle. The more help you can get the better, you need tools.

As for him, how about letting him sort himself out. Sure he might improve, there is always hope but what you really need to ask yourself is if you want to have a front seat for that particular learning curve (which could take years really, who knows).

trailmix

I'm not really clear on what you mean here? You cannot, simply cannot put up with this any longer, you are miserable. Then he texts and says hey, wow, I'm terrible and I know it so I'll fix myself. Then you think you now have to accept him? Correct me if I'm wrong there.

I don't see the correlation between the two, he can say or do anything he wants to say or do, that has no bearing on what YOU do. Where are the actions here btw? All I've seen so far are words. What is he doing? Attending meetings, seeing a therapist for intense therapy, what progress has he actually made, besides calling you with his updates?

Regardless of all that, if you are finished with this relationship you are (and if your not, you're not, but either way that is entirely your choice).

Ituvia

Trail, he says he has booked bunch of more sessions with a therapist. These are from an App that I tried when he was here back in Feb when it was unbearable for me. At the time he told me he is not gonna do therapy but focus on meditation and a book. When he was here day before I told him the therapist on the app can help with depression and Anxiety but nothing serious because they are all pretty young and maybe inexperienced. As far as actions are concerned, he says he is doing innerchild workbook, therapy for 6-9 weeks and then yesterday he said he was going to transfer his last salary to our joint account. Even though I've put in money into the account, I've never really used it. If he wanted to, shouldn't he have transferred it to my personal account?

Ituvia

[QUOTE=trailmix;7450908]I'm not really clear on what you mean here? You cannot, simply cannot put up with this any longer, you are miserable. Then he texts and says hey, wow, I'm terrible and I know it so I'll fix myself. Then you think you now have to accept him? Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Your understanding is somewhat correct. He SAYS he knows he has been terrible.
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I came across this book called "codependent no more" by Melody Beattie, after reading the first few pages I am coming to understand the problems I have created.
I have surrendered my will to God and I am going to be truthful about my thoughts and emotions from today, I truly understand the depth of the gaslightling, emotional abuse and criticism by me over the past 8 years.
I have caused immense trauma over the years and the only thing I should and I can do is fall on my knees and be truthful to the words "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference"

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This is what he sent me yesterday after he reached. The thing is he is very intelligent and he has veen researching narcissim and codependency.