Enlightenment too late?
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 51
Enlightenment too late?
Hi
Thank you for all of your stories - I've been reading & learning, finally understanding what has been happening in my life! I was so confused by his manipulation for so many years; I thought I was the problem, and I finally see that his drinking was the problem - it was so normalized by him and everyone around us, that I totally believed daily drinking was what nornal people do, and I wasn't normal because I didn't drink very much. I've been married to AH for nearly 30 years, he has been drinking heavily the entire time, mostly beer. I used to tell him off sometimes, in the early days, when he'd roll in at 4 am, but got told I was a nag, so just let him be. He has quit drinking now for a month, I think because he got really sick after mixing prescription painkillers with many beers, but he's not talking much about it, just says he's quitting for a while.
He has manipulated, lied, run us into debt. A few years ago, I finally had enough and said "neither of us are happy, we should think about ending our marriage". He said "the easy way to end it would be for one of us to be killed, you could be shot walking the dogs" (he owns guns for hunting). He's never, ever been violent. I ended up in therapy, because my anxiety went through the roof. I was scared to leave. After these few years of working with a counsellor, learning self care, I am no longer scared of him and I'm learning to detach and to live life for me. I know that leaving would be the best thing for me. But he's only a couple of years from retirement, we have a lot of debt, and I feel it would be cruel of me to leave when he has no time left to recover from the financial fallout that would happen. I am 52, still time left for me to work and save. And I still have terrible anxiety when I think of leaving. I feel trapped. I feel like I finally figured things out, but too late in life. I'm trying to not be fooled by his quitting drinking, but it seems like the easy fix - he's not been so angry lately...
Thank you for all of your stories - I've been reading & learning, finally understanding what has been happening in my life! I was so confused by his manipulation for so many years; I thought I was the problem, and I finally see that his drinking was the problem - it was so normalized by him and everyone around us, that I totally believed daily drinking was what nornal people do, and I wasn't normal because I didn't drink very much. I've been married to AH for nearly 30 years, he has been drinking heavily the entire time, mostly beer. I used to tell him off sometimes, in the early days, when he'd roll in at 4 am, but got told I was a nag, so just let him be. He has quit drinking now for a month, I think because he got really sick after mixing prescription painkillers with many beers, but he's not talking much about it, just says he's quitting for a while.
He has manipulated, lied, run us into debt. A few years ago, I finally had enough and said "neither of us are happy, we should think about ending our marriage". He said "the easy way to end it would be for one of us to be killed, you could be shot walking the dogs" (he owns guns for hunting). He's never, ever been violent. I ended up in therapy, because my anxiety went through the roof. I was scared to leave. After these few years of working with a counsellor, learning self care, I am no longer scared of him and I'm learning to detach and to live life for me. I know that leaving would be the best thing for me. But he's only a couple of years from retirement, we have a lot of debt, and I feel it would be cruel of me to leave when he has no time left to recover from the financial fallout that would happen. I am 52, still time left for me to work and save. And I still have terrible anxiety when I think of leaving. I feel trapped. I feel like I finally figured things out, but too late in life. I'm trying to not be fooled by his quitting drinking, but it seems like the easy fix - he's not been so angry lately...
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Ach…..to me, I don't think it would be cruel to leave an unhappy marriage …..from a man who could actually SAY the words----"You could get shot walking the dogs".
52 is still young. People are living until 100 or more, these days....Do you want 30-40-50 more years of this? How will you enjoy being the daily caregiver to a person whose health is broken down from the alcoholism.
It is not cruel or selfish to think of your ow self, in my opinion....
Maybe, you are encased in the FOG
F-fear
O-obligation
G-guilt
52 is still young. People are living until 100 or more, these days....Do you want 30-40-50 more years of this? How will you enjoy being the daily caregiver to a person whose health is broken down from the alcoholism.
It is not cruel or selfish to think of your ow self, in my opinion....
Maybe, you are encased in the FOG
F-fear
O-obligation
G-guilt
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
Dear Achnasheen,
Self preservation is not cruel. The mind games he has played on you are cruel.
IMO, we are all responsible for our own financial security as adults--he is an adult.
I'm sorry you have gone through so much with your husband, but I'm very happy to learn that you have your own counselor to help you! Brava!!
Please take good care of you!! You deserve peace and joy!
Self preservation is not cruel. The mind games he has played on you are cruel.
IMO, we are all responsible for our own financial security as adults--he is an adult.
I'm sorry you have gone through so much with your husband, but I'm very happy to learn that you have your own counselor to help you! Brava!!
Please take good care of you!! You deserve peace and joy!
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,159
I was married for 19 years. My wife and I decided to get divorced. It wasn't like a big ending of something. We were both happier and better off for it. We are still friends, just friends, nothing more. It's good. At first I felt like, "Oh no, our marriage failed," but I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I think we are taught that divorce is a failure, when It's just life change. Marriage was good for several years, until it wasn't. We didn't have children. We both had jobs that were self supporting, we divided our assets, and went off in new directions.
I had taken up carpentry, and built two houses that we lived in while we built them so we had accumulated a bit of wealth by doing that and no one suffered financially. But we had a lot of tools, and I had one more house to build when I moved out. My wife wanted half of the tools as part of our settlement, which I thought was odd, because she had no interest in carpentry, but it was our money that bought them so I was OK with that, but she just gave them to the neighbor, and I bought new ones, so I ended up with better tools.
We had two lawn mowers. One was a cheap one that was 20 years old, and the other one was two years old, and three times as expensive, because it had a bagger and was kind of self propelled, but it was poorly engineered and one part of the self propulsion had broken twice already and had to be replaced. She wanted the better lawn mower, so I took the 20 year old el-cheapo and used it for another 20 years. I don't think I ever changed the oil, just added some once a year, and the thing never stopped running no matter how much I abused it, until I finally sold it in a garage sale when I decided to live on a boat for while. We still laugh about some of the silly things that happened during the divorce.
A couple of weeks after the divorce, we were finishing up some details with our lawyer, and he asked me for my address. I said I was still living in the same house, until I could find another place. He looked puzzled about that, and my ex said, "If he doesn't move out pretty soon, we will be remarried under common law." We all laughed at that. But we only lived that way for about a month.
If my wife needed something fixed on the old house, I would fix it for her, and when I left for a week or two, she would baby sit my two cats. Divorce is not the end of it all, and does not have to be a tragedy.
I had taken up carpentry, and built two houses that we lived in while we built them so we had accumulated a bit of wealth by doing that and no one suffered financially. But we had a lot of tools, and I had one more house to build when I moved out. My wife wanted half of the tools as part of our settlement, which I thought was odd, because she had no interest in carpentry, but it was our money that bought them so I was OK with that, but she just gave them to the neighbor, and I bought new ones, so I ended up with better tools.
We had two lawn mowers. One was a cheap one that was 20 years old, and the other one was two years old, and three times as expensive, because it had a bagger and was kind of self propelled, but it was poorly engineered and one part of the self propulsion had broken twice already and had to be replaced. She wanted the better lawn mower, so I took the 20 year old el-cheapo and used it for another 20 years. I don't think I ever changed the oil, just added some once a year, and the thing never stopped running no matter how much I abused it, until I finally sold it in a garage sale when I decided to live on a boat for while. We still laugh about some of the silly things that happened during the divorce.
A couple of weeks after the divorce, we were finishing up some details with our lawyer, and he asked me for my address. I said I was still living in the same house, until I could find another place. He looked puzzled about that, and my ex said, "If he doesn't move out pretty soon, we will be remarried under common law." We all laughed at that. But we only lived that way for about a month.
If my wife needed something fixed on the old house, I would fix it for her, and when I left for a week or two, she would baby sit my two cats. Divorce is not the end of it all, and does not have to be a tragedy.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,617
Hi Achnasheen. I hope you will re-read what you have written. You actually are trapped, I just don't think that you have fully realized that you hold the key.
Perhaps think about what it will be like when he is retired, then he will be home all the time and free to drink at will. If you haven't managed to pull yourselves out of debt in 30 years, why would you think that is going to happen on one income when he has all the time in the world to drink?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, I just think after years of this you may be stuck in a fog, as dandylion mentioned.
Is this what you want for the rest of your life? That's really the only question you need to answer, for yourself.
You were not put on this earth to look after him, you are not his Mother, you are (supposed to be) his partner in marriage, apparently that didn't work out.
52 is not old at all, you have many years to look forward to.
You mention his retirement and that he doesn't have that many years left of employment to pay off debt, again, not your problem. Retirement is not a law either, he can continue to work and pay off his debt.
Perhaps just start making a plan. You are still working. If you own your house, that might need to be sold, unless you can buy him out.
I would really recommend you speak with a divorce lawyer and get all the facts, so you know what your options are. Most will do an initial consultation for free.
A support group like Al Anon might be really helpful too.
Perhaps think about what it will be like when he is retired, then he will be home all the time and free to drink at will. If you haven't managed to pull yourselves out of debt in 30 years, why would you think that is going to happen on one income when he has all the time in the world to drink?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, I just think after years of this you may be stuck in a fog, as dandylion mentioned.
Is this what you want for the rest of your life? That's really the only question you need to answer, for yourself.
You were not put on this earth to look after him, you are not his Mother, you are (supposed to be) his partner in marriage, apparently that didn't work out.
52 is not old at all, you have many years to look forward to.
You mention his retirement and that he doesn't have that many years left of employment to pay off debt, again, not your problem. Retirement is not a law either, he can continue to work and pay off his debt.
Perhaps just start making a plan. You are still working. If you own your house, that might need to be sold, unless you can buy him out.
I would really recommend you speak with a divorce lawyer and get all the facts, so you know what your options are. Most will do an initial consultation for free.
A support group like Al Anon might be really helpful too.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,414
The comment about getting shot walking the dog is reason enough to get out in my view.
What a horrible thing to say. Disease is progressing so what you have now is likely as “good” as it will be.
Read Nero’s thread. That’s where it can go.
What a horrible thing to say. Disease is progressing so what you have now is likely as “good” as it will be.
Read Nero’s thread. That’s where it can go.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 51
Thank you for all of the kind words and encouragement. I appreciate the support so very much. Yes, I do believe I am in a FOG, and those are powerful emotions! I feel like I know I need to leave, but my emotions keep me here. I've been waiting for my heart to catch up to my head, but maybe that won't happen until I actually do leave, and am away from his influence.
I've been doing some things, as if I am leaving, like gathering important papers, cleaning out closets, working with my counsellor, looking for affordable housing that will allow me to keep my 3 dogs. I haven't been to a lawyer, I need to do that.
I already feel overwhelming guilt for even thinking about "abandoning" a sick, getting-to-be-old man and pretty sure that feeling will get way worse upon actually leaving.
I am currently unable to work as well, so that just adds another degree of difficulty!
I've been doing some things, as if I am leaving, like gathering important papers, cleaning out closets, working with my counsellor, looking for affordable housing that will allow me to keep my 3 dogs. I haven't been to a lawyer, I need to do that.
I already feel overwhelming guilt for even thinking about "abandoning" a sick, getting-to-be-old man and pretty sure that feeling will get way worse upon actually leaving.
I am currently unable to work as well, so that just adds another degree of difficulty!
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
Originally Posted by Achnasheen 
I've been waiting for my heart to catch up to my head, but maybe that won't happen until I actually do leave, and am away from his influence.
One of the things I've heard here when someone says they hesitate to leave their A b/c they still love him/her is "better to leave before you hate them", and I think that's absolutely true too.
Agreeing w/others about paying attention to what amounts to a death threat--it's not something to take lightly. Contact a DV center and a lawyer, then take (safe) action. I'm a dog person also and I understand your concern for your hounds; it was one of my biggest worries also. But who will care for them if you're dead?
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,617
It does, in fact financial concerns often keep someone trapped, we see it here often.
That's where a plan comes in. How much do you realistically need to live on and how much can you earn. Doing a mini-budget can be really helpful. Once you have the number in front of you, you can start to think of ways to obtain that money. A job of some sort? Your own small business, low cost housing. As you are unable to work right now, are you entitled to any kind of benefit that might also have subsidized housing?
First things first though, the mini-budget will tell you where you have to be and then you can go about getting there.
There is a way - you just have to find it.
As for the guilt, well, when did you decide that you were his keeper. Has he been struggling for years worrying about retirement?
I do believe that a realistic view here is imperative. You are not his caretaker, you are not his Mother. He is not a child. He is a grown man, close to retirement age! He has had years to make his own plan and has not, why do you think you are responsible for that?
From what you have described, you are not a 'team' and if you are, you are the only person on the team!
Your guilt is perhaps misplaced, worth thinking about perhaps.
That's where a plan comes in. How much do you realistically need to live on and how much can you earn. Doing a mini-budget can be really helpful. Once you have the number in front of you, you can start to think of ways to obtain that money. A job of some sort? Your own small business, low cost housing. As you are unable to work right now, are you entitled to any kind of benefit that might also have subsidized housing?
First things first though, the mini-budget will tell you where you have to be and then you can go about getting there.
There is a way - you just have to find it.
As for the guilt, well, when did you decide that you were his keeper. Has he been struggling for years worrying about retirement?
I do believe that a realistic view here is imperative. You are not his caretaker, you are not his Mother. He is not a child. He is a grown man, close to retirement age! He has had years to make his own plan and has not, why do you think you are responsible for that?
From what you have described, you are not a 'team' and if you are, you are the only person on the team!
Your guilt is perhaps misplaced, worth thinking about perhaps.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by honeypig
Agreeing w/others about paying attention to what amounts to a death threat--it's not something to take lightly. Contact a DV center and a lawyer, then take (safe) action. I'm a dog person also and I understand your concern for your hounds; it was one of my biggest worries also. But who will care for them if you're dead?
A few days after he threatened me, he was away from home and I threw belongings into a bag, took my dogs, and left. I went to my brother, my only nearby relative. He and his wife let me stay, but they did not believe AH could ever harm me. I was in a state of severe anxiety and unable to think clearly. My brother said I was over reacting because I have trust issues because of childhood trauma. I had sent AH a text saying that I had left, that I needed time to think. He phoned me, really mad at me, saying How could I believe that he would hurt me. I agreed to go back home to talk to him, I ended up agreeing that I'd over reacted, and staying. A few months later I was still scared of him, I couldn't find my trust again, and I started counseling because I felt like I was losing my mind. In therapy, I found out that what I'd been experiencing most of my life - sweating, heart pounding, that sick feeling in your stomach, and then feeling exhausted (from your body trying to cope with all all of the adrenaline) - was actually anxiety, flight, fight, or freeze, caused by childhood trauma. That reinforced what my brother and AH said, that I over reacted to a statement made in the heat of the moment.
I tried to have a conversation about it with AH. Then, what felt to me like gaslighting, started. He said he couldn't really remember, he said he thought we'd been watching a tv show, and something said in the show got him and I talking about one spouse killing another, but he had never said anything about shooting me. His version of events was complete fiction. I had written down what he said, I knew I wasnt remembering it wrong. Another time we talked and he could not remember ever making a threat, he said "You must be remembering wrong, because I would never say something like that!" I told him he absolutely did say it.
It totally messed with my head. I still don't know if he was just trying to intimidate me so I would stop talking about separation/divorce, or if he would truly get violent if I left. Or maybe he was drunk and actually doesnt remember.
I keep going through times when I feel like I did just over react, and then times when I don't know if I can really trust him.
My plan has been to leave without telling him, and to not let him know where I am once I am gone, because I would rather over react and be safe. So I've been working towards that goal.
I'm getting there. Therapy, daily meditation and practicing mindfulness and grounding has really helped me cope with anxiety. I was working and saving money, but then had to stop working because of an injury, so a bit of a set-back there. My emotions, the FOG, is one of the hardest things to overcome and this group's responses have given me new ways to think about things, so I am feeling really hopeful for my future, and very grateful for all of you here <3
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,617
I hope you keep posting Achnasheen, support from people who understand is so important.
Yes, it would appear he is gaslighting you.
Alcohol changes the brain, memory loss is not uncommon, however, that's a pretty big thing to forget, you threatening to kill your wife, her leaving and you asking her to come back.
I don't know your past and what trauma you had in your childhood but I do hope you have a therapist that is familiar with addiction/alcoholism because if not, they may not realize the full extent of anxiety that living with an alcoholic can cause. Yes, sometimes therapists don't even understand.
Your feelings are yours, whether your anxiety or reactions are caused by childhood trauma or just living with an alcoholic that is abusive. Please don't let anyone else downplay them. It's something that needs to be addressed. Years of living under the stress you are living under has an effect! Many here have discussed having PTSD as well.
I hope you will start planning, once you have a plan you will feel SO much better. You will no longer feel trapped, you will have an out if that is what you choose.
As honeypig highlighted:
"I've been waiting for my heart to catch up to my head, but maybe that won't happen until I actually do leave, and am away from his influence".
It is very difficult to see the road ahead when you are caught up in the tornado. How can you possibly see all your options. Leaving any relationship is hard, but you really have to protect yourself.
Yes, it would appear he is gaslighting you.
Alcohol changes the brain, memory loss is not uncommon, however, that's a pretty big thing to forget, you threatening to kill your wife, her leaving and you asking her to come back.
I don't know your past and what trauma you had in your childhood but I do hope you have a therapist that is familiar with addiction/alcoholism because if not, they may not realize the full extent of anxiety that living with an alcoholic can cause. Yes, sometimes therapists don't even understand.
Your feelings are yours, whether your anxiety or reactions are caused by childhood trauma or just living with an alcoholic that is abusive. Please don't let anyone else downplay them. It's something that needs to be addressed. Years of living under the stress you are living under has an effect! Many here have discussed having PTSD as well.
I hope you will start planning, once you have a plan you will feel SO much better. You will no longer feel trapped, you will have an out if that is what you choose.
As honeypig highlighted:
"I've been waiting for my heart to catch up to my head, but maybe that won't happen until I actually do leave, and am away from his influence".
It is very difficult to see the road ahead when you are caught up in the tornado. How can you possibly see all your options. Leaving any relationship is hard, but you really have to protect yourself.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by trailmix
As for the guilt, well, when did you decide that you were his keeper. Has he been struggling for years worrying about retirement?
I do believe that a realistic view here is imperative. You are not his caretaker, you are not his Mother. He is not a child. He is a grown man, close to retirement age! He has had years to make his own plan and has not, why do you think you are responsible for that?
From what you have described, you are not a 'team' and if you are, you are the only person on the team!
Your guilt is perhaps misplaced, worth thinking about perhaps.
I do believe that a realistic view here is imperative. You are not his caretaker, you are not his Mother. He is not a child. He is a grown man, close to retirement age! He has had years to make his own plan and has not, why do you think you are responsible for that?
From what you have described, you are not a 'team' and if you are, you are the only person on the team!
Your guilt is perhaps misplaced, worth thinking about perhaps.
I've done a mini budget, and I can support myself but only if I'm able to work, and we will have to sell the house to clear up our debt. Legally, I'm responsible for half of the debt payments, and I can't pay that as well as rent. I'm worried that he will make things as difficult as possible.
Originally Posted by trailmix
I do hope you have a therapist that is familiar with addiction/alcoholism because if not, they may not realize the full extent of anxiety that living with an alcoholic can cause. Yes, sometimes therapists don't even understand.
Your feelings are yours, whether your anxiety or reactions are caused by childhood trauma or just living with an alcoholic that is abusive. Please don't let anyone else downplay them. It's something that needs to be addressed. Years of living under the stress you are living under has an effect! Many here have discussed having PTSD as well.
He started drinking again last weekend and made a point of telling me that he is not an alcoholic because it was his first beer in over a month. I've read many stories here though, and know that quitting for a month means nothing, so I just said "ok" and left it at that.
We were meant to visit our familys at the end of the month - we see them maybe once a year - but with the covid virus, I said we should cancel because my mom is high-risk, has copd and has been in and out of hospital with a lung infection that she's still recovering from, and what if we accidently brought the virus to her. He wanted to go anyway, but not go see her! I said no, he got mad and refused to discuss it anymore, saying "ok, fine. You're the boss" and then putting me on ignore for the rest of the night.
Usually his anger and cold shoulder have me agreeing to whatever he wants. This time it didn't work. I see his manipulation for what it is.
Sending hugs and warm thoughts to everyone who is cooped up with their alcoholic, and worrying about loved ones right now. Praying for the pandemic to end.
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I wonder what he'll do if the silent treatment stops working? I'm glad you're not responding anymore, and I know from experience how easy it is to get sucked into other people's moods.
All the best with your plans and being cooped up for the duration.
All the best with your plans and being cooped up for the duration.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Ach…..I can imagine how alone you must feel...alone and unsupported.....when he doesn't support you about your own mother's welfare....
If a person can't care about your own mother's life...you are not on a "team"....you are simply a solo actor in your own life.....
I can, also, relate to how punishing the silent treatment can feel, when it is used as a weapon. I can remember my parent's marriage...they never had arguments with raised voices...and, alcoholism was not an issue....BUT. occasionally, if they were in disagreement, they would both go silent with each other (but not us kids, necessarily)….This could go on for. sometimes, for 4 or 5 days. It was only broken when one of them "gave up".
I can vividly remember how awful that was---It was like a giant black cloud had descended on the household....we kids were so miserable...we kids were filled with feelings of some kind of invisible "dread" that couldn't be identified. Every day seemed like an eternity...as we prayed for someone to start speaking, again. We felt like we were sucked into it, and, somehow, a part of it.
And, we had no power to end it. For me, I remember feeling sick to my stomach...and, unable to eat much.
I have seen it written that silence, as a tool, is the same thing as an act of aggression.
I hope that you will be able to understand that it is o.k. (and necessary) to take care of your own welfare, now, and, into the future...as he is unable to..and, will be unable to....
It is not "cruel" or unteemlike….it is necessary for your own survival.
The way that I see it...the marriage contract is not an agreement to martyr oneself on the throne of someone else's neglect.....it is supposed to be about mutuality....When the mutuality is gone...I think that the contract is rendered hollow.....
If a person can't care about your own mother's life...you are not on a "team"....you are simply a solo actor in your own life.....
I can, also, relate to how punishing the silent treatment can feel, when it is used as a weapon. I can remember my parent's marriage...they never had arguments with raised voices...and, alcoholism was not an issue....BUT. occasionally, if they were in disagreement, they would both go silent with each other (but not us kids, necessarily)….This could go on for. sometimes, for 4 or 5 days. It was only broken when one of them "gave up".
I can vividly remember how awful that was---It was like a giant black cloud had descended on the household....we kids were so miserable...we kids were filled with feelings of some kind of invisible "dread" that couldn't be identified. Every day seemed like an eternity...as we prayed for someone to start speaking, again. We felt like we were sucked into it, and, somehow, a part of it.
And, we had no power to end it. For me, I remember feeling sick to my stomach...and, unable to eat much.
I have seen it written that silence, as a tool, is the same thing as an act of aggression.
I hope that you will be able to understand that it is o.k. (and necessary) to take care of your own welfare, now, and, into the future...as he is unable to..and, will be unable to....
It is not "cruel" or unteemlike….it is necessary for your own survival.
The way that I see it...the marriage contract is not an agreement to martyr oneself on the throne of someone else's neglect.....it is supposed to be about mutuality....When the mutuality is gone...I think that the contract is rendered hollow.....
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