Unconditional love?
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Sorry, moving on (hit wrong button)
*haven't had any contact for about 10 days. My question to myself that I keep thinking is, mostly because it was mentioned by my ex on many occasions when I made my stand against her drinking. Is not accepting the lifestyle more of conditional love and if I truly loved someone, isn't accepting whatever comes with that what would be considered unconditional love? There's alot to it, obviously, but this I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. It's definitely the source of alot of the pain I'm currently feeling. This is very tough!
*haven't had any contact for about 10 days. My question to myself that I keep thinking is, mostly because it was mentioned by my ex on many occasions when I made my stand against her drinking. Is not accepting the lifestyle more of conditional love and if I truly loved someone, isn't accepting whatever comes with that what would be considered unconditional love? There's alot to it, obviously, but this I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. It's definitely the source of alot of the pain I'm currently feeling. This is very tough!
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Ariesagain posted a link that, due to copyright and SR Rules, I had to remove. However, there is a good article written by Dr. Jonice Webb title "Myth of Unconditional Love".
If you do a simple internet search, you'll find the article.
If you do a simple internet search, you'll find the article.
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Join Date: Apr 2019
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CA, it’s a very tough concept to grasp or analyze when confronting the bullet of addiction. I believe, there are many shades of grey with this... because every addict is unique, as is every relationship.
But perhaps it comes down to another question entirely; what does unconditional love look like for yourself?
Are you happy? Safe? Feeling loved? Acknowledged? Supported? All meaning in your relationship...
Some could even say, can we even give another soul unconditional love? I’d say, the canine/feline/animal world certainly beats humans on that front!
I don’t have an exact answer — but I do know that “unconditional love” doesn’t apply when faced with an abusive, hurtful, manipulative addict in one’s life. There are limitations you know?
And many addicts will throw those exact words (re: I thought you loved me unconditionally?!!!) out only as a superb way to invoke guilt and manipulation. Why? Because it sadly works.
But perhaps it comes down to another question entirely; what does unconditional love look like for yourself?
Are you happy? Safe? Feeling loved? Acknowledged? Supported? All meaning in your relationship...
Some could even say, can we even give another soul unconditional love? I’d say, the canine/feline/animal world certainly beats humans on that front!
I don’t have an exact answer — but I do know that “unconditional love” doesn’t apply when faced with an abusive, hurtful, manipulative addict in one’s life. There are limitations you know?
And many addicts will throw those exact words (re: I thought you loved me unconditionally?!!!) out only as a superb way to invoke guilt and manipulation. Why? Because it sadly works.
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Thank you, Seren!
I believe “unconditional love” between two adults in the sense that someone would stay in a relationship no matter what is not achievable or desirable. I am not sure where this idea came from, but it’s nonsense.
It mostly seems to come up when one person is behaving in toxic and destructive ways, gets called on it, and then the toxic person complains that means they’re not being loved unconditionally.
It’s manipulative and emotional blackmail. Far better that two people are in a relationship because they choose to be from a place of healthy self-agency.
I believe “unconditional love” between two adults in the sense that someone would stay in a relationship no matter what is not achievable or desirable. I am not sure where this idea came from, but it’s nonsense.
It mostly seems to come up when one person is behaving in toxic and destructive ways, gets called on it, and then the toxic person complains that means they’re not being loved unconditionally.
It’s manipulative and emotional blackmail. Far better that two people are in a relationship because they choose to be from a place of healthy self-agency.
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Join Date: Jun 2019
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I read the article. It was very helpful and reassuring. And thank you for the comments above, they serve the same purpose. As NYC said, one of the biggest challenges here is that yes, all people are different. Both the addict and those that love them, we are all born with different minds and souls, and certainly the life we live from that point molds us in our own different ways as well. Thank you
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Hey CA,
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Bekindalways 
Hey CA,
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 93
[left][QUOTE=Bekindalways
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love.
This. My ex ABF actually broke up with me, but I think a large contributing factor was that he knew he couldn’t drink in front of me, and that I would not be ok if I found out he was drinking. He tried to keep a handle on or otherwise conceal it for quite some time, and I think in the end he couldn’t do it or just didn’t want to “pretend to be perfect” anymore, as he put it. Because I do love him (still do), how could I stand by and accept his drinking, knowing it was a slow death and had been so catastrophic already in his life? It’s a hard position we are put in. Believe me, I’ve pondered how things could have been if I’d been able to detach more and ignore it, but I just couldn’t - he and I both knew it after a certain point. Once I figured out it was a problem, I kind of became the enemy, even if I wasn’t actively trying to control it. [/left]
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love.
This. My ex ABF actually broke up with me, but I think a large contributing factor was that he knew he couldn’t drink in front of me, and that I would not be ok if I found out he was drinking. He tried to keep a handle on or otherwise conceal it for quite some time, and I think in the end he couldn’t do it or just didn’t want to “pretend to be perfect” anymore, as he put it. Because I do love him (still do), how could I stand by and accept his drinking, knowing it was a slow death and had been so catastrophic already in his life? It’s a hard position we are put in. Believe me, I’ve pondered how things could have been if I’d been able to detach more and ignore it, but I just couldn’t - he and I both knew it after a certain point. Once I figured out it was a problem, I kind of became the enemy, even if I wasn’t actively trying to control it. [/left]
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Originally Posted by Ariesagain
Thank you, Seren!
I believe “unconditional love” between two adults in the sense that someone would stay in a relationship no matter what is not achievable or desirable. I am not sure where this idea came from, but it’s nonsense.
It mostly seems to come up when one person is behaving in toxic and destructive ways, gets called on it, and then the toxic person complains that means they’re not being loved unconditionally.
It’s manipulative and emotional blackmail. Far better that two people are in a relationship because they choose to be from a place of healthy self-agency.
I believe “unconditional love” between two adults in the sense that someone would stay in a relationship no matter what is not achievable or desirable. I am not sure where this idea came from, but it’s nonsense.
It mostly seems to come up when one person is behaving in toxic and destructive ways, gets called on it, and then the toxic person complains that means they’re not being loved unconditionally.
It’s manipulative and emotional blackmail. Far better that two people are in a relationship because they choose to be from a place of healthy self-agency.
Unconditional love is what we have for children, siblings, parents, etc. We love them no matter what. But even then, if they did something outright wrong, we shouldn’t block them from having consequences.
For example, I love my niece unconditionally. If she robbed a bank, I would absolutely still love her. I’d still take her to the police station though.
I believe partnerships are different. Partnerships are set up to account for things that are or are not acceptable. Marriage vows say things like “for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.” Not “even if you abuse me,” “in truth or in a bag of lies,” or “whether you cheat or not.”
Love is not a license to trap people in a soul destroying relationship. That’s not love at all.
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Join Date: Dec 2017
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My XRAH likes to be passive aggressive on FB and I know it is directed at me. He posted something recently that basically said, anyone can love you when the sun shines, it is during the storms that you really find out who your friends are. It really irked me because really, the storm may have started for him when he got sober but for me the sun quit shining long before that. I stuck by him for 16 years so I didn’t just leave at the first sign of trouble. There was another thing I saw on FB that said, when a woman loves a man she really loves him. The only one that can screw things up is the man himself. Now I realize that this isn’t really true as a generalization but I feel that in my case it is definitely true.
I agree with other that unconditional love is mostly for your children. I took my marriage vows serious for in sickness and in health but I also believe that there are limits. Watching someone destroy themselves for years and not being able to do anything about it takes a toll and at some point you may not be a bale to recovery from that. Sacrificing your own happiness and mental health just because you are supposed to love unconditionally....I think not
I agree with other that unconditional love is mostly for your children. I took my marriage vows serious for in sickness and in health but I also believe that there are limits. Watching someone destroy themselves for years and not being able to do anything about it takes a toll and at some point you may not be a bale to recovery from that. Sacrificing your own happiness and mental health just because you are supposed to love unconditionally....I think not
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Parents are supposed to love their infants unconditionally. Without that unconditional love, a parent would not bother changing diapers, bathing, and feeding a tiny human that is unable to meet any conditions whatsoever.
Once children are old enough to understand some basic things, there are conditions that they have to meet in order to continue living with their parents. For example: make your bed, do your homework, don't pinch your sister... etc. However you can't simply off-load your kids if they are acting like jerks, but I do know some people who have, as a punishment (or perhaps just to get a break) sent their kids off to grandma for two weeks (presumably grandma is meaner).
As for unconditional love for anyone else... even if you have a dog, the dog will love you as long as you feed it. If you starve the dog and kick it repeatedly, it will hate you. So dogs have conditions. Cats are all about boundaries. So I don't have to explain cats to you. Even reptiles aren't going to love you unconditionally -- can reptiles love? I don't think they do. I have no idea.
And marriage... marriage is a relationship with the most conditions of all. When you take your marriage vows, you are publicly stating a set of conditions, which your relationship will fulfill. Example: I promise to honor and respect you; and to love you in sickness, in health, till death do us part. Also, the officiant usually says, "do you promise to forsake all others and give yourself in marriage to California123?" Now... IF you are in a marriage where your spouse is having a love affair with drugs or alcohol, and they are gas-lighting you, and they are spending all your money and they expect you to be their nurse (despite the fact that they can and should seek recovery), then you have a spouse who has broken the marriage contract.
It doesn't matter if they did it on purpose or not, if you consider their addiction a disease or not, they have broken the conditions of the marriage -- they can not respect you or anyone if they don't even respect themselves. At this point, it is up to you if you want to modify the conditions, you can also renew your contract at a later date... etc. But at this point, things are atypical.
Relationships of (what we now call) a "romantic" nature (live-in partners, spouses), are first and foremost, and always have been, about conditions. Historically such unions were economic arrangements. Romantic love is a very modern construct. Now we have more choices. But we still insist on some conditions: fidelity is one condition -- for some people it is the only condition. Addiction is an obsession, a compulsion. Drugs and alcohol often light the same areas of the brain that are affected when we fall in love -- addicts get a rush from their DOC, or at least a warm happy float-y feeling. No addict can fulfill the requirement of fidelity to a relationship with another person when their primary relationship is to their DOC.
So... if your partner is not "all in", and you're the only one who is "all in", you're really having a relationship solo.
Edit: Many people choose to stay with their partners while they are in recovery and I am not saying this is wrong. It is possible to stay with someone for 30, 40, 50 years and not always be emotionally or physically connected for every year of your lives together.
Once children are old enough to understand some basic things, there are conditions that they have to meet in order to continue living with their parents. For example: make your bed, do your homework, don't pinch your sister... etc. However you can't simply off-load your kids if they are acting like jerks, but I do know some people who have, as a punishment (or perhaps just to get a break) sent their kids off to grandma for two weeks (presumably grandma is meaner).
As for unconditional love for anyone else... even if you have a dog, the dog will love you as long as you feed it. If you starve the dog and kick it repeatedly, it will hate you. So dogs have conditions. Cats are all about boundaries. So I don't have to explain cats to you. Even reptiles aren't going to love you unconditionally -- can reptiles love? I don't think they do. I have no idea.
And marriage... marriage is a relationship with the most conditions of all. When you take your marriage vows, you are publicly stating a set of conditions, which your relationship will fulfill. Example: I promise to honor and respect you; and to love you in sickness, in health, till death do us part. Also, the officiant usually says, "do you promise to forsake all others and give yourself in marriage to California123?" Now... IF you are in a marriage where your spouse is having a love affair with drugs or alcohol, and they are gas-lighting you, and they are spending all your money and they expect you to be their nurse (despite the fact that they can and should seek recovery), then you have a spouse who has broken the marriage contract.
It doesn't matter if they did it on purpose or not, if you consider their addiction a disease or not, they have broken the conditions of the marriage -- they can not respect you or anyone if they don't even respect themselves. At this point, it is up to you if you want to modify the conditions, you can also renew your contract at a later date... etc. But at this point, things are atypical.
Relationships of (what we now call) a "romantic" nature (live-in partners, spouses), are first and foremost, and always have been, about conditions. Historically such unions were economic arrangements. Romantic love is a very modern construct. Now we have more choices. But we still insist on some conditions: fidelity is one condition -- for some people it is the only condition. Addiction is an obsession, a compulsion. Drugs and alcohol often light the same areas of the brain that are affected when we fall in love -- addicts get a rush from their DOC, or at least a warm happy float-y feeling. No addict can fulfill the requirement of fidelity to a relationship with another person when their primary relationship is to their DOC.
So... if your partner is not "all in", and you're the only one who is "all in", you're really having a relationship solo.
Edit: Many people choose to stay with their partners while they are in recovery and I am not saying this is wrong. It is possible to stay with someone for 30, 40, 50 years and not always be emotionally or physically connected for every year of your lives together.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by Bekindalways
Hey CA,
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
Unconditional love isn't a super useful concept to me. Even love is a tough idea to get my head around. I like Scott Peck's definition of love:
"Love is expanding your limits for the benefit of yourself or someone else.".
Decades later, I look back at leaving my A and firmly believe it was the closest I came to truly loving someone. It expanded my limits beyond anything I had done before or since. It also acted out a radical acceptance of him as a person with the right to live exactly as he chose. He was absolutely choosing to become an addict. I came to see that this was the path he needed to take.
The other part of this love, was accepting that I could not be around to watch him destroy himself. It was a boundary I could hardly even verbalize at the time but it was also a kind of love. Realizing and acting on this boundary was also expanding my limits of who I was and how I lived.
Before this experience, I would have described love as generous, kind and gentle . . . .pretty much all the Hallmark card type inscriptions. Perhaps what I was doing was generous in that I accepted his right to self destruct and didn't interfere, but it sure didn't seem gentle at all.
In short, there are times in life when truly loving someone may mean that you stay the hell away from them.
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 395
Took a screenshot as well! Wow Bekindalways - THANK you for that! Your words hit me so hard... perfectly written and explained.
May I ask you a question? Did he ever try to contact you again?... do you know if addiction continues to consume his life? Just wondering. Much love to you... real strength you have!
May I ask you a question? Did he ever try to contact you again?... do you know if addiction continues to consume his life? Just wondering. Much love to you... real strength you have!
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Join Date: Aug 2016
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Truth, respect and love is hallmark to unconditional love. One can not have the latter without the first. When I told him that his drinking is self centered and all about me. He looked me straight in the eye and stated, "no". When he keeps telling himself lies he can never tell me the truth.
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Originally Posted by LifeChangeNYC
Took a screenshot as well! Wow Bekindalways - THANK you for that! Your words hit me so hard... perfectly written and explained.
May I ask you a question? Did he ever try to contact you again?... do you know if addiction continues to consume his life? Just wondering. Much love to you... real strength you have!
May I ask you a question? Did he ever try to contact you again?... do you know if addiction continues to consume his life? Just wondering. Much love to you... real strength you have!
I actually have been in contact with my XA several times. He went all the way to dealing drugs and wound up in Jail for 3 years. Amazingly he managed to get and stay sober. Some 10-15 years after I left him, he contacted me. At that time, he told me that I did the absolutely right thing in leaving him.
As far as I know he actually has managed to live a decent life. He has been married several times and has grown children.
I understand that his sobriety and relative success is super rare. I do feel I got to see (albeit from a distance) a miracle in his survival. I was pretty sure he was going to die.
Over 30 years later, it is still the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I went back to him multiple times. The depth of the pain in walking away from him was beyond anything I could have imagined. I don't blame a single one of you who doesn't leave your A. It. Is. Just. So. Damn. Hard.
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Bekindalways - isn’t it interesting how certain comments/questions on here can trigger a specific memory or feeling from 30 years ago!
Well you were beyond brave and strong. In a way, you were lucky to finally receive some (positive) closure that he survived and then, ended up being thankful for your choices. I, like so many on here I’m sure, dread the thought that our A’s will end up dead. That’s my greatest fear. Go figure, not me suddenly dying... but her. I know... crazy isn’t it?
Thanks for sharing your story!
Sorry to hijack your thread, CA...
Well you were beyond brave and strong. In a way, you were lucky to finally receive some (positive) closure that he survived and then, ended up being thankful for your choices. I, like so many on here I’m sure, dread the thought that our A’s will end up dead. That’s my greatest fear. Go figure, not me suddenly dying... but her. I know... crazy isn’t it?
Thanks for sharing your story!
Sorry to hijack your thread, CA...
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