FWN

What do I want... what do I want? I want the version of my AH that wants to be a better person for his wife and children, that wants to be a better person for HIMSELF. That cares about his health both mentally and physically. That cares about his wifes emotional health and thinks about how his actions affect the rest of the family.
Okay so let's say that he does that, turns it all around and becomes that person I just described. Do I trust him? No. Could I work on trusting him? Yes. The very first time my trust is betrayed it would be completely over. I couldn't try again, how could I?
How do we develop intimacy again? Romance? When did I even have true intimacy with this person that wasn't simply transactional? It has to have been years. I feel a bit shallow but 100 pounds is a lot of additional weight for a person to gain (from beer, not a health problem) and still have intimate feelings for that person.

And all of this is assuming he even gets into recovery. Which who knows if he even does.

I know what you're thinking. Work on ME. Be happy with ME. And honestly I do value myself, I am happy with myself, I do think I have worth and something to offer a partner in life. I'm a genuinely good wife, mother, and person. The Al Anon book talks about taking a moral inventory of yourself, I could do that and not feel bad about it. I somehow have not lost my self esteem and worth through this process. I KNOW I'm worth more than this. I KNOW I deserve more than this.
Could I live as a single mother of 3 children and do a good job raising them and be happy? Yes I could. I'm a very capable and intelligent person. I do things with my time that make me feel good about myself, I truly enjoy helping others and learning how to better myself and much of my time is spent doing those things.

All of this to say, I do love and value my AH. But because of everything we've been through he's more like a friend to me... and a friend that I don't trust (because of the alcoholism otherwise I would trust him if that makes sense). I enjoy hearing his voice, hearing about his day, hearing about his work situations, talking through politics (sometimes, he's obsessed with politics these days), I truly enjoy our lunches together. Everything just falls apart when alcohol is involved.
In a perfect world, he's be happily in recovery and we'd live in the same neighborhood and co-parent our 3 amazing children (because really we do that very well) and I'd like his future spouse and he'd like my future spouse. And we would raise 3 emotionally healthy and happy children who become contributing members of society.

I'm delusional. I know. I truly honestly just want what's best for him. I want him to see that he's worth so much more than he's allowing himself right now.

He sent me a timestamped photo of his breathelizer before bed. He blew zero. My friend said great, that's progress. And I explained to her unfortunately that's not progress, he didn't drink but just to show me that he didn't and that without working a program it won't stick. That he's perfectly capable of not drinking when he WANTS to not drink, like last night. Maybe to prove it to himself, maybe to prove it to me. But he doesn't want to quit for good. I know he doesn't. And I'd be kidding myself to let that get my hopes up this time. I've been at this for too long.

For those of you that read my post, thank you. Sometimes I use SR as a journal and I value the comments I get on the insanity that goes through my mind these days.

I met with a lawyer here yesterday, it was a very good meeting. Just informational. And I have a plan. But that's a post for another day.

trailmix

Well, that's the thing about relationships with an addict. They are not bad people (necessarily), just people with a mental illness. Now, the thing with addiction is that it weaves its way in to every part of the addicts life, including everyone they befriend, marry, are a parent to, are a child of.

It is inevitable and cannot be avoided, unless you separate from them.

That is why it is so hard to leave. If they were just terrible people, well you can only put up with that for so long. But when they show glimmers, or even days of being the person you know they are under the addiction/poor behaviour, then what, you are torn. Unfortunately, while in active addiction at least, they are one and the same person, inseparable.

Sending a picture of a breathalyzer is a waste of wifi. He could have taken that picture and commenced to drink, you just don't know.

I really hope, for all of you that he takes this opportunity to get sober.

It kind of sounds like you are preparing yourself in case he doesn't and that is a good thing.

mylifeismine

There is definitely something about our sensuality/libido that we
cannot control and that is attraction. FWIW, men aren't the only
humans who are visual and physical attraction/chemistry seems to
be one of those things we don't really choose, we just know when
its happening. What we do with it- yes, our choice. But it is not
superficial to admit a spouse who has gained 100 lbs is no
longer is attractive to you.

Gettingcloser

You are a very strong person, FWN, in a very difficult situation. You will be just fine on your own. You are so right that until he works a program and understands that his addiction is out of his control he will never change.
Keep moving ahead with your plan and do what is best for you and your children.

FWN

FeelingGreat

Hi FWN, maybe concentrate on what you have to work with right now? Otherwise you'll go crazy going through 'what ifs'. Without any knowledge beyond what you post here, it seems like:
- you might work through your trust issues if AH was permanently committed to sobriety because all other things being equal you still love him enough to try.
- AH is not committed to sobriety in any realistic way and he might be years away from that mind space.
- AH doesn't value his family at the same level as you. Another poster on this forum said that his turning point was thinking about his children being raised by another man. Your AH is still fooling around the edges of sobriety and hasn't had that stab of fear in his heart that says 'I really could lose them'. He's still in the bargaining stage - you don't mean it - I'll moderate etc.

FWN

Libido... that word. While I'm being completely honest here with a bunch of strangers. for the longest time I thought something was off balance with me hormonally. My AH has suggested the same... since I'm just not interested and haven't been for a long, long time. I'm only in my early 30's. This isn't normal. And I don't feel hormonally off anywhere else in my life. Maybe it's just the attraction isn't there anymore and that's enough to turn me off completely. I feel bad even writing this down, like I'm betraying us.

FWN

Yes, yes to all of those things. He's even made comments to me about me finding someone else (I'd never look outside our marriage, I haven't, and have always wanted to work on things with us). But we have talked openly about how at the end of the 6 months I very well could decide I don't trust him and cannot and that we would have to end it and his efforts while I'm away would be 'all for nothing' he says. It's so sad. He is such a good dad when he's not drinking. LOVES spending time with them, quality time. Always has projects or things to teach them. He'd be sorry. A long time from now maybe, that he missed out on this precious time with these little people who love him so much.

Ariesagain

Well, that brings up another question. All this time and energy you’re spending trying to square this circle...will you regret not spending more of that on your children instead?

How are you doing with the reduced contact boundary?

FWN

I'm not sure I follow. I spend A TON of quality time with my kids. I've never allowed 'screen time' other than letting them watch a movie at home every few nights. I play baseball with my kids, have conversations at meals with them, and try to be the best non-helicopter parent I can be. I don't feel like I'm neglecting them in any way.

As far as the reduced contact, that's going fine. I talked with him on the phone about a financial matter yesterday and we have our scheduled call tomorrow night. Other than sending some pics of our kids to him doing various things, we are NC. I'd do that regardless of our marital status, I want him to see and know what his kids are up to and they like to talk to him on the phone about it.

trailmix

As you know my Father was an alcoholic. He didn't drink every day and would sometimes go several days without a drink when not working and while at work he couldn't drink (a couple of weeks away at work).

There is no question he was in active addiction.

It doesn't always look like one thing. Also, you mentioned that he is in early addiction, I think a therapist mentioned that once (correct me if I'm wrong), early addiction, late addiction, in this case does it matter one bit? I don't think so. He has been at this your whole married lives.

His wife and three children are no longer living with him because he drinks, but yes, he still drinks. That's active addiction.

It means he will give up his wife and children to drink. That's pretty serious stuff.

As for the attraction factor, it may or may not be the weight, there is a whole picture here. This man is destroying your relationship, that does not lead to romance.

PuzzledHeart

Well I do think Ariesagain is onto something. With all the time and energy you're dedicating to taking care of everything, how much of it is dedicated to taking care of you?

Whenever I experienced major heartbreak, I made it a habit to try something that scared me just a little. I took up hiking and singing, two hobbies that ended up sticking with me decades later. I also read books and watched movies I normally wouldn't have watched. Just something, anything to get out of head and my habits. Those periods ended up being incredibly fruitful, and it sounds crazy now but I even look back at them with some fondness. I hope you take some time to explore who you are.

Hawkeye13

Being trustworthy is attractive.

Being tuned in to your partner’s happiness or unhappiness is attractive.

Making your family a higher priority than your addiction is attractive.

dawnrising

My AH when confronted again and again with my frustration would constantly say "I have been your best friend for the last 20 years"...........then one day it it me like a lighting bolt and the truth that came out of my mouth set me free. " I said you haven't been my best friend in years and years. My best friends don't lie to me, they tell me the truth no matter how hard or uncomfortable, they don't risk our childrens lives by driving them drunk, they would never show up to events important to me intoxicated. My best friends are the people I can count on at any time on any day, and when I call and need help they immediately show up not only physically but emotionally as well." In that conversation I realized AH had never been my best friend. Not even from the beginning. People I had in my life for a fraction of time compared to my marriage were the people I counted on because even when sober I couldn't count on AH. I had been a single parent for years with a crappy roommate claiming to be my best friend. When the pain is greater than the fear you won't hesitate. Hugs to you.

Derringer

That's why I suggested looking into what alcoholism looks like.

There are 4 basic stages.

Covered nicely in the Chapter "To Wives" bottom of page 108 to Midway of page 110.

If you can read him into the various descriptions of the stages, you've got an idea of how long it might drag out before he might seek recovery and decide if you want to be around for that long.

Bare in mind that the wives nearly always stayed in those days and I'm not advocating for that, you do what you feel is best of course.

AnvilheadII

if i have the history correct, he has been drinking the entire course of your 10 year marriage. i believe you said that you have been almost obsessed about his drinking the entire time. so there was always a third party in your relationship. you, him and his drinking. like an affair he just won't quit.

I want the version of my AH that wants to be a better person for his wife and children, that wants to be a better person for HIMSELF.

you want him to become someone he is not.
getting married didn't bring about a change of heart.
having his first child didn't bring about a change of heart.
having his second child didn't bring about a change of heart.
intentionally putting one of his small children in the back seat of a car, not in a car seat, to drive drunk to get pizza (?), did not bring about a change of heart.
the recent birth of his third child didn't do it either. in fact he drank that day/night. as a reward or something.
after making noises about acknowledging he has a drinking problem, he immediately states but he HAS to drink at the christmas party.
which he did.
now, his wife and three kids have packed up and left (again), and he is STILL DRINKING.

^^^this is classic addiction.
1. Addiction includes both substances and activities (such as sex and gambling).
2. Addiction leads to substantial harm.
3. Addiction is repeated involvement despite substantial harm.
4. Addiction continues because it was, or is, pleasurable and/or valuable.

he is there, in an empty house recently vacated by his family, with cameras for pete's sake, and a blow and go on his car, and he is STILL DRINKING. he has demonstrated zero remorse for his actions and behaviors. his allegiance remains to alcohol.

any time he did "not" drink for a period of time, it was always with the knowledge and conviction that he would drink again. that is why it appeared at times that he could "quit" whenever he wanted. because he was never quitting - he was merely pausing.

when you begin to accept what IS, things will get clearer. when a single photo of a 0 on a breathalyzer no longer gives you hope, things will get clearer.

not sure you ever saw the commercial with the woman who didn't have her glasses on and was outside calling for her cat and let a raccoon in the house instead? kinda like that..........

dandylion

FWN...…..I think that, here, in our Western culture....most ever couple who walks down the isle, wants and expects that their marriage will las forever.
In our Western, modern day culture...romance and emotional happiness is considered an important foundation for marriage.
Reality of life demonstrates, however, that this is not always the way it works our.
There are factors that dictate that attraction and romantic bonds will disintegrate and fall to the wayside.
It happens and that is o.k. It just does. It does take two to tango...(especially, the Argentine Tango).
About libido....there is nothing like fear or anxiety or worry or depression....to throw a bucket of cold water on libido.....

In this culture...it is expected that one is allowed to divorce or leave an intimate relationship for any reason or any time that one of the partners desired. For any reason. Remembering that a true union requires two compatable people who Both are satisfied.
Our cultural norms and laws allow for this.

It is possible to still care about a person in a humanistic kid of way...but, no longer feel attraction or romantic interest. That happens a lot of times.....

There is no need for you to feel guilty or shame or to call it "failure".....

dandylion

FWN.....on another front----I don't think that anyone here doubts that you are a good and attentive mother....You put a lot into raising your kids...that is obvious.
I think what aries is trying to say (if I may be so bold)….is that while you are a really good mother....the marriage stress may be keeping you from being all that you could be.....especially, for Yourself.
Consider,for a moment, that children also are keen observers of how a parent/caregiver treats herself. This gives them a prototype of how they will treat themselves when they are grown adults....
They are watching every detail of how you treat yourself.....they not ionly notice and appreciate the nurturing things that you do for them...they. also notice when you deny yourself and martyr yourself (if that happens)...and, deny yourself opportunity that you deserve....and if you value yourself or not. They notice when you show happiness, joy, and laughter....as well---they notice and sense when you are restless, or sad, or unhappy or depressed. They notice far more than we adults give them credit for.
They, also, have antennae for how their mother interacts with their intimate partner(s)…...the can sense if there is true intimacy and deep communication....and if it is lacking. They "know" if caregivers are relating to one another from natural joy...or, out of a sense of only "duty"....from an "arrangement".....
There are more than one kind of marriage...Some are "functional marriages"---as in contractual arrangements about duties and roles...…
And, there are "process" marriages...where the partners are mutually concerned about their partners emotional growth and feelings....

***Of course, I don't think it even needs to be said that alcoholism, or any addiction...or, abuse...can throw a monkey wrench into any kind of marriage.....

Ariesagain

Thank you, Dandylion...that’s exactly what I was trying to get at and you said it much more clearly.

FWN, there is being present physically and there is being present mentally and emotionally. I never for a moment meant to suggest that you aren’t a great mother, so I apologize. You are clearly a smart and driven person, who probably has a Jedi level ability to multi-task in order to manage everything in your life.

I am going to speak only for myself, as another multi-tasker...often I find myself having a conversation with my husband or playing with my dogs or something else for which, if I thought about it, I would want to be fully present.

Instead I have six other trains of thought going...gotta plan this, need to call that, yadayadayada. I’m there...but I’m not.

Your husband’s addiction has been a mind-sucker, yes? Your efforts to gauge his drinking, will him into recovery, and interpret his every word or action in support of that goal is like a soundtrack that’s turned up much too loud: it’s always there and it makes it really hard to be 100% present for anything else.

Maybe do some reading about mindfulness? I am working on this myself.

hopeful4

I can only share with my own experience. Once it all clicked in my head, there was no going back. I would never trust again, I would never be good in that relationship again, no matter what. And that was OK. I had built a support network and built myself to a place that I knew my kids and I would be OK. And we are.

Big hugs.