No Contact When There's Kids Involved?
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Join Date: Aug 2019
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No Contact When There's Kids Involved?
Hi,
I wrote earlier about trying to go no contact with AH as we settle into separation (which is statutorily required before a divorce petition can be filed). I really appreciated all the thoughtful responses.
The stumbling block in really going no contact has been that my AH still wants to talk to the children. The kids are 6 and 4 and they understandably miss their father, who they haven't lived with or seen much of since May. In particular, my older child says "I miss Daddy" multiple times every time. For that reason, I've facilitated three limited visits (in public places) since AH got out of rehab in July. But those visits never seem to be about the kids. My AH ends of playing the victim and berating me for not doing more to support his recovery.
The last visit was bad. He was emotionally distraught because, due to being unemployed, homeless, facing criminal misdemeanor charges, and recovering from a TBI, he was moving out-of-state to his mom's house. He said to the kids—with no regard for their emotional well-being—that he would "never see them again;" that I'm "a narcissist" and "the most inconsiderate person in the world" (presumably because I wasn't allowing him to move into our new home). He also mentioned just "ending it," which is a favored threat that he says for shock value. The kids didn't hear that one, thankfully. I stayed calm, didn't engage, and got the kids out of there. As we were driving home, my six-year-old said: "Everything is Mommy's fault. Nothing is Daddy's fault." That was an eye opener. I've read a little about parental alienation. I can't allow that.
There's been no visits since then. After I calmed down, and few days past, I reached out to my AH to let him know what DS had said and how confused the kids were about his behavior/statements. AH agreed what had happened was not ok but blamed it on his still recovering brain. Since then, I've allowed Facetime calls every few days—again, because the kids talk about missing AH. But those calls, like the visits, don't see to be much about the kids. Admittedly, my kids aren't great on Facetime, preferring to due somersaults or crazy dances for AH. Because the kids aren't talking, and I'm holding the phone, AH tries to talk to me about his life. I don't engage. He then asks: "when can WE talk?" I take this to really mean: "When can I tell you about how awful my post-rehab life is, and complain that YOU are not doing more to help me?" He seems to think, because we're married, that I have to be enmeshed in his drama—e.g., "I'm so scared about my criminal case;" "I don't have anywhere to live;" "What am I going to do??" I tell him that I don't want to be involved, that these are his consequences, and that we need to limit our conversations to being about the children. He can't accept that, and it devolves into self-serving statements, revisionist history, and delusional comments. (By this time, the kids are usually running off in the yard, out of earshot.) I try SO hard not to take the bait. But it's hard. It's hard to listen to baseless accusations and not feel compelled to correct misstatements or defend yourself (e.g., when he says I'm "heartless" or "had you been more supportive, things wouldn't have gotten this bad"). After getting into it with him, I inevitably see the futility in it, and end the conversation (err…hang up). This just leads to a barrage of texts from him. I don't respond.
So, yeah, that's the crazy dance I'm in with AH. If there weren't kids, I'd easily be NC with him. But there are, and so here I am. Can anyone relate to this craziness? Any tips? I clearly need some tools or strategies. Sorry for being so long-winded--thank you for reading!
I wrote earlier about trying to go no contact with AH as we settle into separation (which is statutorily required before a divorce petition can be filed). I really appreciated all the thoughtful responses.
The stumbling block in really going no contact has been that my AH still wants to talk to the children. The kids are 6 and 4 and they understandably miss their father, who they haven't lived with or seen much of since May. In particular, my older child says "I miss Daddy" multiple times every time. For that reason, I've facilitated three limited visits (in public places) since AH got out of rehab in July. But those visits never seem to be about the kids. My AH ends of playing the victim and berating me for not doing more to support his recovery.
The last visit was bad. He was emotionally distraught because, due to being unemployed, homeless, facing criminal misdemeanor charges, and recovering from a TBI, he was moving out-of-state to his mom's house. He said to the kids—with no regard for their emotional well-being—that he would "never see them again;" that I'm "a narcissist" and "the most inconsiderate person in the world" (presumably because I wasn't allowing him to move into our new home). He also mentioned just "ending it," which is a favored threat that he says for shock value. The kids didn't hear that one, thankfully. I stayed calm, didn't engage, and got the kids out of there. As we were driving home, my six-year-old said: "Everything is Mommy's fault. Nothing is Daddy's fault." That was an eye opener. I've read a little about parental alienation. I can't allow that.
There's been no visits since then. After I calmed down, and few days past, I reached out to my AH to let him know what DS had said and how confused the kids were about his behavior/statements. AH agreed what had happened was not ok but blamed it on his still recovering brain. Since then, I've allowed Facetime calls every few days—again, because the kids talk about missing AH. But those calls, like the visits, don't see to be much about the kids. Admittedly, my kids aren't great on Facetime, preferring to due somersaults or crazy dances for AH. Because the kids aren't talking, and I'm holding the phone, AH tries to talk to me about his life. I don't engage. He then asks: "when can WE talk?" I take this to really mean: "When can I tell you about how awful my post-rehab life is, and complain that YOU are not doing more to help me?" He seems to think, because we're married, that I have to be enmeshed in his drama—e.g., "I'm so scared about my criminal case;" "I don't have anywhere to live;" "What am I going to do??" I tell him that I don't want to be involved, that these are his consequences, and that we need to limit our conversations to being about the children. He can't accept that, and it devolves into self-serving statements, revisionist history, and delusional comments. (By this time, the kids are usually running off in the yard, out of earshot.) I try SO hard not to take the bait. But it's hard. It's hard to listen to baseless accusations and not feel compelled to correct misstatements or defend yourself (e.g., when he says I'm "heartless" or "had you been more supportive, things wouldn't have gotten this bad"). After getting into it with him, I inevitably see the futility in it, and end the conversation (err…hang up). This just leads to a barrage of texts from him. I don't respond.
So, yeah, that's the crazy dance I'm in with AH. If there weren't kids, I'd easily be NC with him. But there are, and so here I am. Can anyone relate to this craziness? Any tips? I clearly need some tools or strategies. Sorry for being so long-winded--thank you for reading!
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
so - the kids, 4 and 6. when they say I Want Ice Cream Now, do you let them call the shots and give them some?
same thing with I Miss Daddy. remember these are very small people who have only been on a the earth a few years. they don't have the best coping strategies or even good communication skills. they also don't get to call the shots. that is for the parent to decide.
there are others ways to deal with children when they voice a feeling, thought or concern. you can simply acknowledge how they feel, and then move on. remember these are the same children that will fling themselves down in the grocery store if they don't get the cereal with barney on it.
since it is obvious that at the other end, your ex is USING the children as a way to get AT you, it also needs to stop. children are not playthings. if this facetime is not about the kids, then hang up.
boundaries.
same thing with I Miss Daddy. remember these are very small people who have only been on a the earth a few years. they don't have the best coping strategies or even good communication skills. they also don't get to call the shots. that is for the parent to decide.
there are others ways to deal with children when they voice a feeling, thought or concern. you can simply acknowledge how they feel, and then move on. remember these are the same children that will fling themselves down in the grocery store if they don't get the cereal with barney on it.
since it is obvious that at the other end, your ex is USING the children as a way to get AT you, it also needs to stop. children are not playthings. if this facetime is not about the kids, then hang up.
boundaries.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Shut down. Literally if he begins to talk about himself, hang up the phone. He will get it eventually, and if he does not, then it's his choice. Tell children daddy has a sickness and it makes him not always act the way he should. Protect them every time.
Big hugs.
Big hugs.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 223
I so relate to this. I am certainly not the model because I have been dragged into several terrible convos at hand offs, and the few times I have agreed to be in the same room for more than 15 seconds. And when I did set up a few FaceTime calls over holidays when he was in rehab, it was always just about trying to talk to me, which I otherwise shut down every time.
i think the best solution is to shut it down if you can. If you feel like it is important to have FaceTime, then email him a schedule in advance, and say in that email the conversation is not with you, it’s with the kids, and if it is directed at you or is an appropriate for the children, you’re going to end the call, and then do that. If you find yourself in physical proximity, like if you are informally supervising a visit, again, tell him you are just there to corral the kids and meet at a park or something and stay 20 feet away from him.
I realize this is not the easiest thing to implement. The one time I had a meal with my ex and our child because he had not met the conditions of me leaving her with him and I wasn’t prepared to just put her back in the car and leave ( it was the first time I breathalyzed him when I found out he was drinking, and honestly I was so surprised he was actually drunk at a drop off time I didn’t know what to do) it was bad. My intention was that he was going to get some time with the kid, and he spent the whole time crying literally while telling me about how sad his life was and how I had ruined it. But even setting that aside, if he and I are ever in the same room the kid always wants to be with me because I am her rock. So having any sort of situation where both of us are present is pretty much always a failure. He doesn’t get her attention and I can’t get away from him.
I don’t know if your ex is actively drinking right now, but if not, perhaps you could drop the kids with him somewhere like a park for a while and leave and come back so you aren’t forced to interact so much.
at this point, I am as close as I think a person can get to being no contact with a person they are forced to do hand off’s with. For me, that looks like no response to any email or text message about anything other than scheduling, no response or a very bland response to any statements he makes at drop off, and never asking him questions about himself or engaging on any parenting topic. I sort of say hi, I nod my head if he talks to me for a minute, and I don’t go past the screen door and barely look at him. I think that’s the best I’m going to do
i think the best solution is to shut it down if you can. If you feel like it is important to have FaceTime, then email him a schedule in advance, and say in that email the conversation is not with you, it’s with the kids, and if it is directed at you or is an appropriate for the children, you’re going to end the call, and then do that. If you find yourself in physical proximity, like if you are informally supervising a visit, again, tell him you are just there to corral the kids and meet at a park or something and stay 20 feet away from him.
I realize this is not the easiest thing to implement. The one time I had a meal with my ex and our child because he had not met the conditions of me leaving her with him and I wasn’t prepared to just put her back in the car and leave ( it was the first time I breathalyzed him when I found out he was drinking, and honestly I was so surprised he was actually drunk at a drop off time I didn’t know what to do) it was bad. My intention was that he was going to get some time with the kid, and he spent the whole time crying literally while telling me about how sad his life was and how I had ruined it. But even setting that aside, if he and I are ever in the same room the kid always wants to be with me because I am her rock. So having any sort of situation where both of us are present is pretty much always a failure. He doesn’t get her attention and I can’t get away from him.
I don’t know if your ex is actively drinking right now, but if not, perhaps you could drop the kids with him somewhere like a park for a while and leave and come back so you aren’t forced to interact so much.
at this point, I am as close as I think a person can get to being no contact with a person they are forced to do hand off’s with. For me, that looks like no response to any email or text message about anything other than scheduling, no response or a very bland response to any statements he makes at drop off, and never asking him questions about himself or engaging on any parenting topic. I sort of say hi, I nod my head if he talks to me for a minute, and I don’t go past the screen door and barely look at him. I think that’s the best I’m going to do
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
Since AH has a recorded history of being alcoholic, are supervised visits on the table? Your AH may be less likely to make disparaging remarks about you if he's in the presence of another party. My local Y offers supervised visitation services. Yours may too.
A close friend of mine has a high conflict ex, and she hasn't talked to him in years thanks to child custody software.
Here's a link with more info about supervised visitations.
https://www.womansdivorce.com/superv...isitation.html
A close friend of mine has a high conflict ex, and she hasn't talked to him in years thanks to child custody software.
Here's a link with more info about supervised visitations.
https://www.womansdivorce.com/superv...isitation.html
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 36
Where I live, to get a legal separation or a divorce, the parties have to be physically living apart for 6 months. In an ideal circumstance, a parenting/custody plan would be negotiated and agreed-upon in advance, so that when the 6 months is up, the judge would just rubber-stamp the divorce. I would only agree to supervised visitation. I've been told by lawyers that supervised visitation is the best he'd get from any judge in this jurisdiction (at least initially). For better or for worse, AH has left a long paper trail of addiction, mental instability, and bizarre criminal conduct.
Because AH's downward spiral was fast and recent, and frankly he's still so emotional, there's been no real discussion about what the supervised visitation will look like. So basically, we're in a gray area for now. There's nothing formal in place, and he's really not in a position to do much about it. I mean if you're unemployed and homeless, you're not running into court for an order on custody. In other words, I call the shots--at least for now. So, why I am accepting bad behavior? Is it a boundaries issue? Yeah, I guess it is. I didn't think about it that way until I read Anvil's response above. I guess I was willing to be treated like crap, if it meant I could minimize or blunt this loss for my children. What's that old saying--the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I guess I've got a lot of work to do on myself. It was kind of better when just AH was the problem! Guess it really is time for me to check out Al-Anon!!
Anyways, I really appreciate the practical advice on supervised visitation services and child-custody software. I didn't know those were potential options. There's so much wisdom on these boards--thank you.
Because AH's downward spiral was fast and recent, and frankly he's still so emotional, there's been no real discussion about what the supervised visitation will look like. So basically, we're in a gray area for now. There's nothing formal in place, and he's really not in a position to do much about it. I mean if you're unemployed and homeless, you're not running into court for an order on custody. In other words, I call the shots--at least for now. So, why I am accepting bad behavior? Is it a boundaries issue? Yeah, I guess it is. I didn't think about it that way until I read Anvil's response above. I guess I was willing to be treated like crap, if it meant I could minimize or blunt this loss for my children. What's that old saying--the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I guess I've got a lot of work to do on myself. It was kind of better when just AH was the problem! Guess it really is time for me to check out Al-Anon!!
Anyways, I really appreciate the practical advice on supervised visitation services and child-custody software. I didn't know those were potential options. There's so much wisdom on these boards--thank you.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,792
Originally Posted by righttheship 
AH agreed what had happened was not ok but blamed it on his still recovering brain. .....
Seriously, my heart goes out to you and your kids. This is yet another example of a no winners situation.
If Pappasan REALLY starts to recover, he can prove it by not dissing the mother of his children. He can quit emotionally abusing his own kids.
In the meantime, you must protect your children.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,618
He’s going to blame everything on “his brain” forever.
It doesn’t matter why he’s behaving the way he is, brain or no brain, the problem is the behavior. If he’s trying to talk to you inappropriately, or trashing you to the kids, the behavior needs to not happen. If he won’t stop it, you can stop it. He can’t talk to you if you hang up, and he can’t trash you if you don’t bring the kids to see him. You’ve done this with texts (ignore the barrage), the next step is to do it with phone calls and in-person visits.
If the kids miss Daddy, maybe they could make cards or crafts for him? Something so that they feel connected without exposing them to the disaster that he is?
And re software that enables you to exchange information about kids without actually talking to him, try OurFamilyWizard.
It doesn’t matter why he’s behaving the way he is, brain or no brain, the problem is the behavior. If he’s trying to talk to you inappropriately, or trashing you to the kids, the behavior needs to not happen. If he won’t stop it, you can stop it. He can’t talk to you if you hang up, and he can’t trash you if you don’t bring the kids to see him. You’ve done this with texts (ignore the barrage), the next step is to do it with phone calls and in-person visits.
If the kids miss Daddy, maybe they could make cards or crafts for him? Something so that they feel connected without exposing them to the disaster that he is?
And re software that enables you to exchange information about kids without actually talking to him, try OurFamilyWizard.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,628
She certainly does and I don't know if you know but you can view Sasha's threads by clicking on her username on her post here (above where her picture/avatar would be, on the left there) and choosing "Find all threads started by Sasha1972".
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