Child custody/visitation - sudden turn of events
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Child custody/visitation - sudden turn of events
I just don't really know where to start with this but I feel like getting it out here and seeking more perspectives might help me to feel stronger and clearer about what just recently happened...
STBXAH and I were able, in May, to reach a custody agreement where I have primary custody and he has 2 weeknight visits and every other weekend visits with our boys, but no overnights. It is stipulated that neither parent will drink alcohol while the boys are in their care. He gave his solemn word that he would not drink before or during the boys' visits with him. (I'm sure you can already see where this is going.) The terms of the agreement "may be revisited in one year".
Things started out shaky (scheduling-wise) partly because STBXAH was prepping to move and then moving out of our house and into his new apartment. But then he got moved and the boys were really enjoying their visits. Mid-June he said he thought the boys should spend the night on their visit days. Long story a little shorter, I agreed - the boys were so happy to spend time with their dad hanging out at the pool. (Truth is, STBXAH's role seemed to be more like that of a fun big brother rather than that of a father.) But for this short time, through June, STBXAH seemed to be keeping his word about not drinking with the boys there.
Monday evening STBXAH picked up the boys at my place after work. I'm leaving out some detail here but he is really stressed about work, his pain condition is bad, and he recently found out his severe knee pain is because he tore his ACL - again. I've been trying to maintain emotional detachment but it's been really really hard. I've felt guilt and pity, and like I've abandoned him in his extreme pain. But this is beside the point of this post.
On Tuesday morning, my oldest began texting me at 5:24 a.m. saying his dad is acting really weird. I went to get them right away. STBXAH was so stoned/high/drunk that I don't even think he really recognized me. I just told the boys to get their stuff and let's go. My youngest DS needed to get his hoodie from his dad's truck and I had to ask STBXAH 3 times for the keys so he could get it.
They told me he stayed up all night watching rock videos, that his dissolved a pill into some tap water and drank it (that morning), that he drank at least 3-4 beers that morning, that he kept saying the "f word" under his breath ... these are some of the things they told me: "dad stayed up all night watching rock videos and it was so loud I couldn't sleep"; "I was afraid he was going to drive us home and crash into something"; "I felt like he was a different person"; "I asked him something 3 times and it was like he couldn't hear me"; "Dad fell down and kind of landed in his chair but he really didn't know what was going on and he was shaking, it was kind of like he was out of his mind".
My attorney (solo practitioner) is unavailable this week, and I've just been really struggling with this today (after feeling just in shock yesterday and writing down as much as I could that the boys said to me). I called a local parenting support hotline and the very kind woman I spoke with basically told me that if I allow them to go back to visit their dad, knowing that this situation occurred, I would obviously be putting my kids at risk of another dangerous situation, and I would also be putting myself at risk, as their primary caregiver, by sending them to a potentially dangerous situation.
This is so hard - STBXAH is out of town now, back Friday, supposed to have the boys this coming weekend. I know I have to tell him it's not happening and I just don't know how to say it. This is the hardest thing I've ever done.
STBXAH and I were able, in May, to reach a custody agreement where I have primary custody and he has 2 weeknight visits and every other weekend visits with our boys, but no overnights. It is stipulated that neither parent will drink alcohol while the boys are in their care. He gave his solemn word that he would not drink before or during the boys' visits with him. (I'm sure you can already see where this is going.) The terms of the agreement "may be revisited in one year".
Things started out shaky (scheduling-wise) partly because STBXAH was prepping to move and then moving out of our house and into his new apartment. But then he got moved and the boys were really enjoying their visits. Mid-June he said he thought the boys should spend the night on their visit days. Long story a little shorter, I agreed - the boys were so happy to spend time with their dad hanging out at the pool. (Truth is, STBXAH's role seemed to be more like that of a fun big brother rather than that of a father.) But for this short time, through June, STBXAH seemed to be keeping his word about not drinking with the boys there.
Monday evening STBXAH picked up the boys at my place after work. I'm leaving out some detail here but he is really stressed about work, his pain condition is bad, and he recently found out his severe knee pain is because he tore his ACL - again. I've been trying to maintain emotional detachment but it's been really really hard. I've felt guilt and pity, and like I've abandoned him in his extreme pain. But this is beside the point of this post.
On Tuesday morning, my oldest began texting me at 5:24 a.m. saying his dad is acting really weird. I went to get them right away. STBXAH was so stoned/high/drunk that I don't even think he really recognized me. I just told the boys to get their stuff and let's go. My youngest DS needed to get his hoodie from his dad's truck and I had to ask STBXAH 3 times for the keys so he could get it.
They told me he stayed up all night watching rock videos, that his dissolved a pill into some tap water and drank it (that morning), that he drank at least 3-4 beers that morning, that he kept saying the "f word" under his breath ... these are some of the things they told me: "dad stayed up all night watching rock videos and it was so loud I couldn't sleep"; "I was afraid he was going to drive us home and crash into something"; "I felt like he was a different person"; "I asked him something 3 times and it was like he couldn't hear me"; "Dad fell down and kind of landed in his chair but he really didn't know what was going on and he was shaking, it was kind of like he was out of his mind".
My attorney (solo practitioner) is unavailable this week, and I've just been really struggling with this today (after feeling just in shock yesterday and writing down as much as I could that the boys said to me). I called a local parenting support hotline and the very kind woman I spoke with basically told me that if I allow them to go back to visit their dad, knowing that this situation occurred, I would obviously be putting my kids at risk of another dangerous situation, and I would also be putting myself at risk, as their primary caregiver, by sending them to a potentially dangerous situation.
This is so hard - STBXAH is out of town now, back Friday, supposed to have the boys this coming weekend. I know I have to tell him it's not happening and I just don't know how to say it. This is the hardest thing I've ever done.
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"supposed to have the boys this coming weekend."
No. That has been changed. He drank and drugged.
"It is stipulated that neither parent will drink alcohol while the boys are in their care.
Do you have in writing what happens now? If not, or even if you do, it's a great time to pause, protect your boys and hopefully get some kind of counseling for them with people who understand addictions.
Kudos for reaching out by phone and here. Are you also going to Al-Anon?
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I know I have to tell him it's not happening and I just don't know how to say it.
well let's give that a different filter....are you more concerned about your children's SAFETY or about hurting AH's feelings?
the person who had charge of YOUR precious children, the person who was supposed to assure their safety, security - to protect them from all harm, was so F'd out of his head he had no idea who you were, much less remembered i'm sure that there were minor children IN the house IN his care. he didn't even understand a simple request - where are your keys.
there should not be ANY problem telling THAT person that no, you are no longer allowed to have my children in your care. PERIOD.
as the attorney said, knowing that he has drugs and alcohol IN the home, knowingly allowing your children into that environment could be considered reckless endangerment. so again, NO. i can't imagine the terror those kids felt, all night. witnessing the only human nearby in charge of their very survival was THAT messed up.
well let's give that a different filter....are you more concerned about your children's SAFETY or about hurting AH's feelings?
the person who had charge of YOUR precious children, the person who was supposed to assure their safety, security - to protect them from all harm, was so F'd out of his head he had no idea who you were, much less remembered i'm sure that there were minor children IN the house IN his care. he didn't even understand a simple request - where are your keys.
there should not be ANY problem telling THAT person that no, you are no longer allowed to have my children in your care. PERIOD.
as the attorney said, knowing that he has drugs and alcohol IN the home, knowingly allowing your children into that environment could be considered reckless endangerment. so again, NO. i can't imagine the terror those kids felt, all night. witnessing the only human nearby in charge of their very survival was THAT messed up.
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Yes, it was really traumatic for them (and I don't use the term "really traumatic" lightly). Especially my oldest, was VERY upset about seeing his dad that way. All day they just kept telling me about it.
What is wrong with me that I originally thought "well I think this means no more overnights" instead of "no more unsupervised visits!!!!" I'll give myself credit for coming this far, but gosh sometimes I am my own worst enemy - my secondguessing and downplaying. UGH!!! Right!! No freaking way is he taking them again. I need to stop trying to see him as my friend - he is not my friend and he is not being a good dad no matter how much he says he loves the boys!!!
This is going to break the boys' hearts. They love their dad so much.
What is wrong with me that I originally thought "well I think this means no more overnights" instead of "no more unsupervised visits!!!!" I'll give myself credit for coming this far, but gosh sometimes I am my own worst enemy - my secondguessing and downplaying. UGH!!! Right!! No freaking way is he taking them again. I need to stop trying to see him as my friend - he is not my friend and he is not being a good dad no matter how much he says he loves the boys!!!
This is going to break the boys' hearts. They love their dad so much.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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How awful! That is every parents' nightmare.
You know what you have to do, and really the decision is out of your hands. Your ex has decided that he would rather drink than parent, he's made that really clear, and you telling him no more visits is the inevitable and reasonable consequences of his own actions. No guilt and no burden attaches to you.
From having been in this situation, my thoughts are:
Communicate to him in writing (text is fine but take a screenshot) in as few words as possible, e.g. "Visits are suspended indefinitely because you were drunk and unable to care for them during their last visit. The boys communicated this to me and I also observed you directly when I picked them up at [time]. The boys will not be coming to your place on Friday". Then no more discussion at all. Block his number or email if you can. He will probably minimize his behavior because the kids weren't actually physically injured, and accuse you of violating your parenting agreement but that will be rubbish because no parenting agreement in the world requires you to place your kids at elevated risk of harm. Let his lawyer talk to your lawyer about it.
Write everything out just as you've done here, as neutrally and factually as possible (this occurred at this time and place, I observed this, I believe this to be true because [reasons], etc).
You may wish to consider changing your parenting agreement such that he has only supervised visits or only SoberLink-monitored visits (I think it would be difficult to cut his visits off altogether because thanks to your quick response no one was actually injured. This is the downside of being a responsive and responsible parent - you don't accumulate the evidence of actual rather than potential harm). If he wants to propose some way of "earning" unsupervised visits, let it come from him, and then you and your lawyer can evaluate it.
This must have been very scary for the boys - how are they doing with seeing their dad like that, completely out of his mind? And GOOD for your oldest for reaching out to you to get them out of that situation. That took courage.
You know what you have to do, and really the decision is out of your hands. Your ex has decided that he would rather drink than parent, he's made that really clear, and you telling him no more visits is the inevitable and reasonable consequences of his own actions. No guilt and no burden attaches to you.
From having been in this situation, my thoughts are:
Communicate to him in writing (text is fine but take a screenshot) in as few words as possible, e.g. "Visits are suspended indefinitely because you were drunk and unable to care for them during their last visit. The boys communicated this to me and I also observed you directly when I picked them up at [time]. The boys will not be coming to your place on Friday". Then no more discussion at all. Block his number or email if you can. He will probably minimize his behavior because the kids weren't actually physically injured, and accuse you of violating your parenting agreement but that will be rubbish because no parenting agreement in the world requires you to place your kids at elevated risk of harm. Let his lawyer talk to your lawyer about it.
Write everything out just as you've done here, as neutrally and factually as possible (this occurred at this time and place, I observed this, I believe this to be true because [reasons], etc).
You may wish to consider changing your parenting agreement such that he has only supervised visits or only SoberLink-monitored visits (I think it would be difficult to cut his visits off altogether because thanks to your quick response no one was actually injured. This is the downside of being a responsive and responsible parent - you don't accumulate the evidence of actual rather than potential harm). If he wants to propose some way of "earning" unsupervised visits, let it come from him, and then you and your lawyer can evaluate it.
This must have been very scary for the boys - how are they doing with seeing their dad like that, completely out of his mind? And GOOD for your oldest for reaching out to you to get them out of that situation. That took courage.
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Originally Posted by PerSe 
Yes, it was really traumatic for them (and I don't use the term "really traumatic" lightly). Especially my oldest, was VERY upset about seeing his dad that way. All day they just kept telling me about it.
What is wrong with me that I originally thought "well I think this means no more overnights" instead of "no more unsupervised visits!!!!" I'll give myself credit for coming this far, but gosh sometimes I am my own worst enemy - my secondguessing and downplaying. UGH!!! Right!! No freaking way is he taking them again. I need to stop trying to see him as my friend - he is not my friend and he is not being a good dad no matter how much he says he loves the boys!!!
This is going to break the boys' hearts. They love their dad so much.
What is wrong with me that I originally thought "well I think this means no more overnights" instead of "no more unsupervised visits!!!!" I'll give myself credit for coming this far, but gosh sometimes I am my own worst enemy - my secondguessing and downplaying. UGH!!! Right!! No freaking way is he taking them again. I need to stop trying to see him as my friend - he is not my friend and he is not being a good dad no matter how much he says he loves the boys!!!
This is going to break the boys' hearts. They love their dad so much.
Nothing is wrong with you - you're just in a process of remaking your relationship with your ex to take into account how truly screwed-up he is. Don't expect your well-trained and conditioned responses to him to change overnight.
Maybe he thinks he loves the boys but love is something you do, not just a warm fuzzy feeling you have about "being a dad". He isn't doing.
It will make the boys unhappy to not see their father in the short run (and maybe make them feel guilty too, for "telling on him" to you). But in the long run, whatever relationship they have with him will be better if they aren't forced to witness him staggering, mumbling, urinating on himself, shaking, breaking things, and all those other wonderful things that late-stage alcoholics get up to.
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It's very serious and the boys were in great danger. I hope the possibilities of terminating visits for some time period or until complying with an addiction treatment plan is very real.
We shouldn't have to wait until there is a seen injury to have more protection for our kids. The trauma in this is injury in itself.
We shouldn't have to wait until there is a seen injury to have more protection for our kids. The trauma in this is injury in itself.
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Thank you so much Sasha, for the recommendations. I will surely follow them. Gosh I just wasn't expecting this.
They are upset for sure - I think this is one of those things they will always remember. Unfortunately, in their childs' minds they think it is as simple as "Can you just ask Dad to not do that again next time?". They just don't comprehend the depth and complexity that is alcoholism. I am trying to be forthright and honest with them without boggling their minds. Also, they are SO CONFUSED because STBXAH is SO NICE when he is drunk. It's so strange - he gets so nice, sentimental, mushy practically. But it doesn't make him any less irresponsible and it really doesn't make the situation safe.
They are upset for sure - I think this is one of those things they will always remember. Unfortunately, in their childs' minds they think it is as simple as "Can you just ask Dad to not do that again next time?". They just don't comprehend the depth and complexity that is alcoholism. I am trying to be forthright and honest with them without boggling their minds. Also, they are SO CONFUSED because STBXAH is SO NICE when he is drunk. It's so strange - he gets so nice, sentimental, mushy practically. But it doesn't make him any less irresponsible and it really doesn't make the situation safe.
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Anvil really hit the nail on the head there.
Per Se, I'm sorry he was so reckless, I'm sure you are a bit shell shocked yourself. A call at 5 AM from your child and having to race over there much be traumatic as well.
Somehow you need to detach from that misplaced guilt you are feeling don't you think. Why aren't you angry?
A couple of quotes from previous posts you have made:
"AH got SO ANGRY when he found out I would be requesting soberlink testing. SO ANGRY. To be clear, he has never been physically abusive but I can't even tell you how much I dread his anger".
"I am also not detached in that I still feel that I cannot tolerate his anger/disgust/disapproval/dislike"
While your emotions might be out of place (for reasons you will find out eventually) your logic will find the way and of course bouncing the ideas around here helps too! You realize you should be angry but instead you fear his anger/hurt. I get that. Sometimes when we are unsure of our perspective it's great to run it by trusted others.
The anger you experience from him is a means of controlling and you were married to this man for a long time. That response you have is ingrained and it won't disappear overnight, it will require work, although it will start to fade as you feel safer.
Per Se, I'm sorry he was so reckless, I'm sure you are a bit shell shocked yourself. A call at 5 AM from your child and having to race over there much be traumatic as well.
Somehow you need to detach from that misplaced guilt you are feeling don't you think. Why aren't you angry?
A couple of quotes from previous posts you have made:
"AH got SO ANGRY when he found out I would be requesting soberlink testing. SO ANGRY. To be clear, he has never been physically abusive but I can't even tell you how much I dread his anger".
"I am also not detached in that I still feel that I cannot tolerate his anger/disgust/disapproval/dislike"
While your emotions might be out of place (for reasons you will find out eventually) your logic will find the way and of course bouncing the ideas around here helps too! You realize you should be angry but instead you fear his anger/hurt. I get that. Sometimes when we are unsure of our perspective it's great to run it by trusted others.
The anger you experience from him is a means of controlling and you were married to this man for a long time. That response you have is ingrained and it won't disappear overnight, it will require work, although it will start to fade as you feel safer.
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You'll find ways to start educating your kids. They'll need to understand a lot more about this, in order to get past the deep denial that becomes a part of dealing with this disease.
One day at a time. Keep it simple. One foot in front of the other.
One day at a time. Keep it simple. One foot in front of the other.
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... and again, every word you have written sounds familiar. The boys are trying to make the problem go away - and in their minds, the problem would go away if you magically took care of it by letting things to back to "normal". But they're kids and you're an adult and you know that Dad's idea of "normal" is any reasonable person's idea of "really dangerous".
Be prepared to be the bad guy for a while, especially if Dad mopes and is very, very sad about how much he misses his boys. Does he have contact with them by text or phone? And how old are they? Older kids, especially if they're perceptive, may be able to recognize emotional manipulation.
Be prepared to be the bad guy for a while, especially if Dad mopes and is very, very sad about how much he misses his boys. Does he have contact with them by text or phone? And how old are they? Older kids, especially if they're perceptive, may be able to recognize emotional manipulation.
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Yes, they do both have phones. A week or so ago he was texting them rock video links at 1 am .. I had to set a boundary around that - no texting after 8:00 pm. (He was texting them rock videos to Rob Zombie!!! SO INAPPROPRIATE. My youngest is 9 - and his dad is sending him Rob Zombie rock videos???!!!! Freaking ridiculous!!) Okay but anyway, yes, I can see having to tell STBXAH that I will be monitoring their texts from him and if they seem inappropriate, I will block him.
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My parenting plan states that all visitation is to be within my city limits. Ex husband wanted to take my daughter out of town for a vacation. My lawyer said it was my call, but deviating from the parenting plan sets a precedent. Just some advice......
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PerSe….I strongly suggest that you contact your local domestic violence organization and get some counseling around your extreme fear of your husband's anger....
I know that you feel "safe" in that he has never been physical with you, and, maybe, you have never thought of it this way...but there are several kinds of abuse...and, intimidation is one of them!
You aren't that scared of him for nothing....
The local organization will be very familiar with situation, such as this....and, it will be completely confidential...
Your reactions and fear require guidance and treatment from very specially trained persons....In addition...safety planning for you and the boys...
You have nothing to lose by getting this kind of support...and, a lot of support to gain....
In case you are not familiar---There are a lot of books written for children who have an alcoholic parent....that are written in language, and pictures that children can relate to...and can be read by the child, alone, or, with the guidance of a sober parent...
You can get them on amazon.com...just type in "children and alcoholism" in the book section. You can, also, find them by typing in some of the authors' names....Diane S. O'Connor/Carolyn Hanna Bell/Jill M. Hastings...…
The boys will, likely, appreciate the books....as they are, obviously worried about their own safety....afraid of their parent "crashing" into something....
We parents almost always underestimate how much kids really know and how worried and how much self blame they assign to themselves....these books address issues like that in kid language...
I know that you feel "safe" in that he has never been physical with you, and, maybe, you have never thought of it this way...but there are several kinds of abuse...and, intimidation is one of them!
You aren't that scared of him for nothing....
The local organization will be very familiar with situation, such as this....and, it will be completely confidential...
Your reactions and fear require guidance and treatment from very specially trained persons....In addition...safety planning for you and the boys...
You have nothing to lose by getting this kind of support...and, a lot of support to gain....
In case you are not familiar---There are a lot of books written for children who have an alcoholic parent....that are written in language, and pictures that children can relate to...and can be read by the child, alone, or, with the guidance of a sober parent...
You can get them on amazon.com...just type in "children and alcoholism" in the book section. You can, also, find them by typing in some of the authors' names....Diane S. O'Connor/Carolyn Hanna Bell/Jill M. Hastings...…
The boys will, likely, appreciate the books....as they are, obviously worried about their own safety....afraid of their parent "crashing" into something....
We parents almost always underestimate how much kids really know and how worried and how much self blame they assign to themselves....these books address issues like that in kid language...
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I agree with everyone else, your first priority is your children’s safety. I would text him and let him know that you observed him under the influence while in his care and for that reason the boys will not be visiting with him.
Ive heard the false promises of my X that he wouldn’t drink around the kids but it never seems to hold through. My kids don’t spend the night for the seem fact that my AXH can’t go a day without drinking. We both know this fact so he hasn’t seemed to push them staying with him.
I would keep all communication in writing (text/email) until you speak with a lawyer so you can have documentation about what occurred.
Ive heard the false promises of my X that he wouldn’t drink around the kids but it never seems to hold through. My kids don’t spend the night for the seem fact that my AXH can’t go a day without drinking. We both know this fact so he hasn’t seemed to push them staying with him.
I would keep all communication in writing (text/email) until you speak with a lawyer so you can have documentation about what occurred.
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Wow he really boogered that up. Shame on him. Smart move for your kids to call you. Its quite obvious the man has issues and is sick. I'm sure he loves his kids. But dam dude what were you thinking??? Well now let your attorney handle the situation. Take care of you and your kids. Hopefully the knucklehead will address his problems so that he can earn his way back into his kids lives. Right now he burnt that bridge up. Stay strong ....now mind you I am a father as well. .sad
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