Kboys

Hello,
I’m struggling today with guilt regarding my children. It’s eating at me today and it feels awful. My boys are 6 and 7 now. They witnessed a lot of violence when their Dad was drinking. Mostly verbal and emotional. I allowed him to keep coming back and allowed it to continue and I wish I would have put a stop to it when they were much younger, but I didn’t.

At this time he is sober and has been for 9 months. He is really sober this time. I let him come back. At first I regretted the decision to let him come back, (OMG, I just did it AGAIN! WTF is wrong with me?) but as time has gone on, and he has remained not only sober, but also, just nicer, more insightful, patient, like the guy I always knew was in there… I have felt more confident that I did make the right decision for my children. As long as he can remain sober and we can not fight, I believe it’s best for them for us all to be together. Will he stay sober forever? He says yes, but I of course don’t count on that. For right now, however, I hope it’s healing for my children to see that we can have a positive relationship… He will NEVER be around my children again if he's drinking.

But.. he and I had an argument this morning. It was just a little one, and nothing like how it used to be. But the kids heard. My 7 year old said, “stop!” and we did. But it made me feel bad, and I guess it got me thinking again about how everything in the past must have effected them. I’ve been googling effects of witnessing DV this morning… which definitely doesn’t help the guilt. I’ve read all these articles before.. I think I’m looking for something new in them, like something that will make me feel less guilty, but I can’t seem to find it. :/

I guess my hope is that the effects can be reversed as they are still young…. But I don’t know. I also don’t know which of their behaviors are a result of all that stuff, and which aren’t… 7 year old has problem focusing and with attention, and social awareness. He also tends to “space out”. 6 year old has anger outbursts. They both still need me to lay with them to fall asleep, and wake up in the night and call for me to come lay with them (which I’m happy to do for as long as they need me to).
Feeling kind of sick to my stomach about it today, though I know there’s nothing I can do to change the decisions I made in the past or the things that have happened, and it doesn’t help me or them for me to feel like this.

I don’t know what I’m wanting I guess, just wanted to put it out there today. Thank you for being here, as always

hopeful4

Parenting out of guilt does not good. Said from the parent who did this for a long time once I divorced, and before that as well. The very best thing you can do for your children is to exhibit healthy relationships, healthy reactions, healthy emotional well being. Thus, the WHY does not matter, it's more how you do things going forward.

I see this with my younger DD. If I have any sort of arguing with her older sister, in her head, it's some awful argument. Where we see it as a simple disagreement. It has made me control myself and my emotions an anger much better. Through counseling I have learned that under anger is normally other emotions, and to give yourself time to figure out what that is and act on it in a calm manner instead.

You have went through a lot of trauma. Hopefully your husband will stay clean and continue to exhibit long term healthy behaviors. You had to form a trust in him, and your children have to do the same.

Sending you big hugs!

Kboys

Thanks hopeful
Hugs back to you

NYCDoglvr

It would help you -- and the family -- to go to Alanon, which was a lifesaver for me. Guilt is the most useless of emotions; I learned new tools to help me cope on a daily basis. Big hug!

trailmix

As a person that grew up in a household with an alcoholic I can tell you that the damage is already done.

Simply viewing a "healthier" relationship, in my opinion, is not going to fix that.

Therapy is in order here and soon. Now, I never had any, but I do know the result of not addressing it.

For years, if I heard other people arguing it was scary to me (as an adult). When you hear your parents fighting all your safety issues come to the forefront. All that stands between you and the big wide world are those two people (in a child's mind) and look at what is being said. There is no security in that.

Also, in adult relationships, arguing is "normal". In fact, it's not really, in 99 percent of cases things can just be discussed, there is no need for anger. That's not what you see when your parents rage at each other, that becomes your normal.

Granted, my Mother was very reliable, so I'm sure that helped but even with that, there are repercussions.

I hope you get them help and I hope things continue to go well for you.

pizza67

mylifeismine

Growing up witnessing physical and verbal abuse between my
parents I would say counseling could be very beneficial.
They could speak about their thoughts and fears to a trusted
person, and you (kboys) could feel more comfortable
distinguishing between the issues of just growing up
and whats attached to the trauma of what they witnessed.
I don't think this would take long at their ages, and everyone
could benefit.

Sleepyhollo

Where do you live? You don’t really have to answer that but my kid when she was almost 7 (at the end of first grade) did a 4 day kid program at Betty Ford children’s program. It was really good for her. She learned about addiction, about emotions, realized that there were other kids with an alcoholic parent and some of them much worse of (we never fought we just didn’t talk much and no one knew he was an alcoholic other than me, he hid it well) . They get to talk about how it affected them, that it isn’t their fault etc etc. They have programs in TX, CA and CO (last I checked anyway, this was 2 years ago she did it). If you are in any of these states I highly recommend it.
If not, play therapy might be a good idea. Chances are they suffered a lot while he was an active drinker and he got clean and you probably did alanon or counseling but they just continued on and probably don’t know what to do with their feelings (that they may not even understand they have) and so that comes out in their behaviors. My kids friend did play therapy (not addiction related) and it was really good for her kid. My ex and I both grew up in household (his with 2 alcoholic parents and me without the addition component) where communication of emotions was non existent and it obviously really affected us later on. My kid is quite and doesn’t like to talk about that stuff a lot for times and I’m working on getting her to open up so she doesn’t fall into the same bad pattern. Everyone needs to empty out their backpack of emotions, if they don’t the back pack gets heavier and heavier and going on with every day life becomes harder. They likely haven’t had the best example,of feeling safe about sharing their emotions or even being encouraged to so they need to learn about that. I certainly wished I had leaned this growing up rather than keeping everything to myself.

FeelingGreat

I agree that therapy might be the way to go. It will help with the anxiety.

Maybe family therapy as well?

pdm22

Guilt, shame, fear, anger, sadness- certain feelings get a bad rap, but one thing I’m learning as I get older (and I also grew up in a household where feelings weren’t acknowledged, or validated- often ridiculed or squashed down, so it took me a while), is all feelings are important messangers, even the yucky ones. They are trying to tell you something. You are right, you can’t change the past, how nice it would be if we could get a “do over” sometimes. But we can’t. However, when we know better, we can do better, and it’s so true that there are various therapies and solutions out there to help your children in the here and now. Perhaps that’s something to explore?

Anyways, I read this article yesterday about “spiritual bypassing”, regarding how certain feelings tend to get pushed aside, and thought it might have some relevance here:


https://humanparts.medium.com/the-da...CXFmPsrZT_nPTY

tomsteve

he and I had an argument this morning. It was just a little one, and nothing like how it used to be

one thing i learned from my parents was to have discussions that shouldnt involve the children in private. i never saw or heard them argue/disagree. it wasnt until i was much older that my mom revealed that her and dad did have arguements/disagreements, but they did it in private. even then it wasnt argueing- it was voicing each others opinions and coming to an acceptable solution.

FireSprite

Excellent share, thank you. It very well describes part of what I've been discovering this past year in the process of actually FEELING those emotions in real time. Allowing myself to face my darker sides & accepting those ugly parts that exist is yet another level of humbling I hadn't prepared myself for in this journey.

KBoys, my heart goes out to you, mom-to-mom. You absolutely can't un-do the damage & there's no way to make it right quickly. This is one of those time & space issues & for kids, it involves HUGE amounts of trust building with both parents all around. DD has gone through a lot of triggers over this last year & they always catch me by surprise. She's older & can talk through a lot of it but ultimately what makes the difference is changed behavior in a positive way that is consistent over time.

At first, my husband balked at his own shame when she triggered & we had to have a CTJ (Come to Jesus) meeting about him putting himself aside for her benefit & that Hey, he could even choose to grow WITH her in these moments. But him acting like she should just "be over it" or that things "weren't that bad" was not acceptable to either of us & in fact, further damaged the entire trust-building & bonding experience. He can't minimize the impact his decisions & behaviors have made on her life & if he can't handle growing up enough himself to do better now, then how is that in line with living a recovered life in any way? Who is ever going to be more important in his life than her, I asked? What else is ever going to more-worth his time?

He had to step back & really get into Acceptance with this issue - it was far easier to blameshift or offload the pain he felt at his own rising shame.

By the way - she triggers sometimes BECAUSE she feels safe enough to do so & some of the stuff that comes up makes no sense to her because it traces back to when she was 5/6/7 & didn't have words to really understand the situation happening at the time the trust was being broken to begin with. But when we sit & agonizingly go through it frame-by-frame & compare then to now & stop to match words to the rising emotions, we are removing the power that those triggers hold over her so she's not carrying them forward forever in life. My best friend calls it "journeying" & says that we are effectively changing history in her memory by going back & relabeling everything while it's still sort of "fresh" rather than waiting until she's in therapy in her 40's & going off about some seemingly random event.

At your sons' ages, I found it super helpful to ask more questions than I answered so I turned everything back on her - how did that make YOU feel? What was your first thought? etc. I learned a lot about what she was thinking & she often just needed to be HEARD. That was a big part of trust-building on my side - along with pure honesty as much as possible in an age appropriate way.

What you are seeing now, IMO, from the POV of having been in your kids' shoes, is just the tip of the iceberg of possibility depending on how they internalize or process their young lives to this point. At this age, they don't HAVE all the right words or understanding of things to even properly explain themselves & that ALONE can be frustrating. Things like music & art therapy are wonderful.

My ultimate point in all of it though is that WE have to lead them - WE have to be willing to do that hard work ourselves. We HAVE to fix our sides of the street first to effectively lead. Every resource I've read on parenting from Brene Brown to Dr. Shafali Tsabary to a parenting seminar I attended by Dr. Ginsburg of the Philadelphia Children's Hospital all say this over & over - it starts with Us.

FireSprite

We are, absolutely. Kboys adores her children, like we all do. Every post she's ever shared tells that story, she is doing her Best, every day. They can & will get better with the right combination of things - whatever that means for them in terms of therapy, etc.

But we cannot pretend that the damage isn't done. The first 7 years of every child's life are critical in terms of fundamental development. EVERY reputable resource will agree with this. Since we can't go back & erase history & do-over (like pmd suggested) we have to accept the reality of how our kids ARE affected by addiction & especially violence in their home if we really intend to help correct it. Full stop. No excuses, no if's. No but's.

I WAS that kid, just like trailmix, & I'm working overtime at therapy now in my 40's trying to "undo" all that happened in those first 7 years that my mom is STILL trying to tell me "wasn't that bad"... because that makes it easier for her to manage it all. None of this is easy but we can't stick our heads in the sand & expect it to get better on it's own "just because", or those patterns are destined to repeat.

hopeful4

Yes, therapy has helped my children beyond measure.

pdm22

Has anyone else seen the Jaycee Dugard 2 part special on 20/20? She’s one of the most incredible people on the planet to me. She had a different kind of trauma, but after the show, I was reading up on her organization that helps children who have experienced trauma/s. I love her ideas, and how she explained when children train horses 10x their size, it gives them back a sense of power that was lost along the way. Many different therapies to choose from, but I really like this:

The JAYC Foundation | Just Ask Yourself to... Care!

Kboys

Thank you all for the responses and perspectives.
I grew up in a chaos-free and relatively functional household. My Dad drank beer every night, and still does, but it never caused any problems, at least not that I was aware of. He never yelled or got mean. I never saw my parents argue or even have disagreements. But I was definitely not encouraged to talk about feelings. Nobody really did. So talking about my feelings and my emotions and even knowing what my true feelings are sometimes, is a struggle for me.

I still see and talk to my parents frequently now, but we never really discuss more than just day to day... no feelings, no deeper conversations. I don't feel comfortable going to them when I have a problem, when I'm sad. It makes me feel worse. I feel like I have to hide all that from them, though I've been trying to be more open with them, because I know it's hurtful to them when I’m not.

I DO NOT want my children to feel that way. I want them to always come to me and find comfort in me.

So I'm trying to be open with my children and to talk to them and ask them questions, and talk about some of the things that happened now that the dust has settled.... But sometimes I think maybe I say too much, or say the wrong things at the wrong time and I'll end up just pushing them away...

I haven’t looked into therapy for them, but I suppose I should, and thank you for all the suggestions on therapy options.

I think maybe I’ve been minimizing the reality of all this until now… Because well, it feels really really sh1tty

hopeful4

I watched my kids keep it all bottled up and it was extremely damaging to them. Through therapy they learned a different path, which turned them into much more stable and open people. It really is worth it.

trailmix

The thing is, it's complicated!

First of all, guilt is really a wasted emotion, you did the best you could at the time with what you had to work with. No parent(s) are perfect. We just try to do as little damage as possible and that's what you are trying to do, you can't ask more than that.

I suggested therapy because I don't know that as non-professionals we can't know what the affects might be.

For me, fear of raised voices was just 1 small thing I mentioned, as an example (and I mean hearing others arguing through a wall for instance).

I just didn't want to get in to the whole ball of wax of ways it has affected me. I am no victim and I don't blame my parents - I never have.

One thing I know for certain is that there can't be any cover-up. Their Father is an alcoholic, that is a fact. He behaved in a horrible manner on many occasions, that's a fact. If you downplay it, it turns it somehow - back to you mostly. What happens (and you have read this here time and again) is that the sober parent gets blamed for abandoning the alcoholic in their time of need. Codependency at its horrible best.

That didn't happen to me because it was never a secret. My Mom never said - oh your Dad is just tired or grouchy or not himself or stressed or any other excuse. He was drunk and he was mean - the facts. I never felt sorry for him.

When your Son yells stop it may not be that he is just sensitive to arguments, he may be having a flash-back, fear it will all start again, defending himself or defending one of you (perhaps you kboys).

That's where it gets complicated and that's why a professional is needed, in my opinion.

dandylion

Kboys…...there is more than just drinking alcohol that can bring damage into a home....Alcoholism brings it's own brand of *ell, but there are, also many other ways to spoil a home...or poison a marriage....
I grew up in a community where there was no drinking...not for most people....as it was considered to be a "sin".
Divorce was almost unheard of...and, never in my family, until me (lol). So I saw families with no drinking or divorce and all gathered under the same roof.
And, yet...I saw the same amount of dysfunction, screwed-up people,unhappy marriages, etc., as the general population.....

I came to realize that no one wants to separate a happy home...
But, there is no advantage in keeping an unhappy home together....
To nurture children...or, even adults, for that matter...a home should be a safe place...without insecurity and fear...
Living in fear and stress and tension....a person has to struggle to just exist...but, certainly can't thrive.....
As grown adults with our developed defenses and coping mechanisms...we can exist in a toxic environment for longer than we can expect the tender young shoots that are still in the process of developing....the developing years are so very critical.....

Kboys….I want to remind you that just because he has not been drinking for a while...and, 9 months is a short time, in the big picture of a lifetime....doesn't mean that the storm is passed and blue skies are forever....
Unless your husband is working a program and digging deep...doing the work that will produce lasting changes in his thinking, attitude and behaviors....it is very likely that the relationship dynamics won't change much, and relapse will be on the horizon, again.

My concern is for you...and the boys, of course...but, the boys are going to have to depend on you for their peaceful and safe environment.
I think you need to gather all of the support and help that you can get for yourself and the kids....and, there is a lot of support....
You have been here for over 6urs.....so I know that you have been advised of the basics of your own support....
at least...alanon and a therapist for yourself....as well as the recommended study materials....."Co-dependency No More"....and, the more than 100 articles in the Classic Reading section of the stickies...
and, of course....therapy for the boys!
***There are some good books on Amaaon.com for mothers who are, essentially, raising boys alone....or, raising boys in difficult circumstanes….

If/when things go south...you are going to need a plan....you are gong to need to be prepared....your welfare and the boy's welfare depend on it.....

I know that you feel "guilty"...and, I agree with others that spending much time feeling guilty is just wasted energy....but, going to work on finding much needed support for yourself and making a brighter future...a more nurturing future....will cause the guilt feelings to go by the wayside....

Kboys...I just feel like you don't have the luxury of being in a relationship where fighting is the way communication works......Perhaps you and your husband are toxic, that way, with each other....even without the presence of alcohol.....?

dandylion

Kboys…..I do want to add that while marinating in our "guilt" is not helpful....I recognize that we all do need the ability to feel normal guilt...to some degree After all, if humans didn't have any guilt...where would our civilization be?

So, in that sense, I am glad that you are capable of feeling some "guilt"....as I know that it shows that you care about your boys and that you love them and want what is good for them.....

another thought that I have....I believe that our Western Culture is heavy on blaming the mother for everything....we are big on "mother's guilt".....
I think that we mothers...all of us mothers, walk through life feeling an extra satlmill of guilt around our necks....